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"Of Men" Discussion Post

Of Men

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine to jump in, even if you haven’t participated in previous discussions. We don’t bite!

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Summary

The Valar leave Middle-earth alone and the Noldor are the sole reason Morgoth’s might is contested. With the rising of the Sun, life spreads and grows through Middle-earth.

Men awake with the first rising of the Sun in Hildórean in the East. Some Men choose to migrate West. Men end up with many names from the Elves, "Atani" being the main one. Of the deeds of Men, little is told in the Silmarillion since it is mainly concerned with the Eldest Days, in which Men play little role. Men fear the Valar, and while Ulmo tries to give them guidance and messages in the waters, Men do not understand his messages. However, Men do meet and learn from the Avari.

Due to the new light, Morgoth’s power is briefly checked and Middle-earth prospers, allowing Men to wander freely. But that time comes to an end, and the tales told will cover what occurs in Beleriand and the many futile battles there. The Exiles are the mightiest of the Children of Eru.

The Elves are immortal and cannot be slain by sickness. The fire of their spirits has not yet consumed their bodies. Men, however, are mortal and can be more easily killed and are subject to illness and old age. Námo alone knows where Men go after they die, though some say there may be a separate place in Mandos for them.

Morgoth triumphs in his goal to divide Men and Elves and the Elves eventually fade from importance in Middle-earth. Despite the divide, some Men stand with the Noldor and become just as valiant. And from a union of Elf and mortal comes Elrond.

Our Favorite Quotes

~ “The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor. Most in mind Ulmo kept the exiles, who gathered news of the Earth through all the waters.”

~ "In that time the air of Middle-earth became heavy with the breath of growth and mortality, and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly; life teemed upon the soil and in the waters in the Second Spring of Arda, and the Eldar increased, and beneath the new Sun Beleriand grew green and fair."

~ “Therefore [Men] loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages.”

~ “Yet it is told that ere long they met the Dark Elves in many places, and were befriended by them; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers of the Elven-race who never set out upon the paths to Valinor, and knew of the Valar only as a rumour and a distant name.”

~ "There was little peril in the lands and hills; and there new things, devised long ages before in the thought of Yavanna and sown as seed in the dark, came at last to their budding and their bloom."

~ “West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green.”

~ "But in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor."

~ “And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the offspring of elf and mortal, Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond their child.”

Alternate Versions

~ Unlike the published Silmarillion, "Gilfanon's Tale" in the Book of Lost Tales offers some details on the first waking of men. According to this unfinished draft, a Dark Elf called Nuin finds the Fathers of Mankind sleeping in a deep valley called the Murmenalda long before the first rising of the Sun. Tû/Túvo, a "wizard fay" of some authority, tells Nuin to leave the sleepers alone, but Nuin is fascinated by them and returns to the Vale of Murmenalda again and again to watch the new Children of Ilúvatar in their sleep. Eventually, he is overcome by curiosity and wakes two of them, called Ermon and Elmir. They cannot speak, so Nuin teaches them the language of the Ilkorin (Avari). These two men witness the first sun rise in the west (in the Book of Lost Tales, the Sun is the first of the new lights to rise). Then the other sleeping mortals also wake, and come from the Murmenalda "as a host of sleepy children".(1)

~ Men then encounter the agents of Melkor, the Úvanimor ("who are monsters, giants, and ogres"). The wizard Túvo protects Men and Dark Elves from the Úvanimor and from Orcs, but a servant of Melkor named Fúkil, Fangli or Fankil sneakily lives among Men and causes many of them to turn against the Dark Elves. According to one draft, the Avari and their mortal allies are defeated; according to another, the battle is undecided, and the Men who followed Fankil (and thus Melkor) escape into the wilderness where they become "savage tribes". Fankil also appears to have some authority among Dwarves. (1)

~ Another major difference between the Book of Lost Tales and the published Silmarillion is that the former offers quite a clear idea of what awaits Men after death. As has been noted in Discussion Post for "Of the Beginning of Days", the spirits of mortals are judged by Nienna, who assigns to them one of four options: staying in Mandos; torment in Angband; transportation to a barren, gloomy country which, however, has the consolation of music and starlight; or rarely, feasting with the Valar. (2)

~ "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" merely notes that "no god came to guide [Men]", although they occasionally received messages of Ylmir (Ulmo) that they "little understood". It is said that they meet Ilkorindi (Avari) and learn speech from them, but at what time that happens is unknown. Having befriended the Avari, Men spread west and north. (3)

~ According to "The Quenta", Men awake "in the land of Eruman in the East of East". This manuscript first features the line "But of Men little is told in these tales..." as well as other ideas and phrasings that made it into the final version. "The Quenta" also first states that the fate of Men after their death is unknown, and that their fate maybe was not in the hands of the Valar. In contrast, it is said that Elves who die, after going to Mandos "to wait a thousand years, or the pleasure of Mandos according to their deserts", are either released into Valinor or reborn into their own children. (4)

~ It is made explicit that Morgoth's power does not reach Men at this point, thus deviating greatly from the Book of Lost Tales drafts. (4)

~ "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" make no mention of Men until the Year 70, when Beör is born. There is either no encounter between Elves and Men before 100, when Felagund first meets Beör and his people, or the chronicler was unaware of it or chose not to mention it. (5)

~ The “Later Annals of Beleriand” simply say that Men awoke in the East with the rising of the Sun. (6) In the “Quenta Silmarillion,” the description of Eldarin bodies as being less consumed by the fire of their spirit appeared, as did a line about the Elves leaving Mandos could take form according to their thought, like the Ainur. The conception of Eldarin rebirth is still, at this time, rebirth through their descendants. Also at this time, Elros has not appeared (though he does by the end of the writing of the QS). (7)

~ The post-LotR work on this chapter is mainly editorial changes of names and the like, though the placement of Hildórien has changed from the “uttermost East” to “in the midmost parts of Middle-earth.” However, according to Christopher’s editorial comments, it is a somewhat confusing change. (8) There is scarcely any detail given in “The Grey Annals,” save Men coming from the middle regions of the world and they would eventually come into Beleriand. (9)

~ A little more information about the early history of Men in the East comes from “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth,” though it concerns beliefs and legends about Men, death, and their Fall rather than a factual account. Men, according to Andreth, believe that Melkor caused mortality of the body, an unnatural seperation because body and soul are meant to be together forever and now only unknowable darkness remains. There is an uncommon belief in the "Old Hope" that Eru will one day enter into the world and heal the Marring. It is also at this point that the idea of Elves being reincarnated as their children's children is abandoned, and the Elves are rehoused in bodies identical to the ones they died with. (10, 11) The information found in “Of Dwarves and Men” parallels the information in “Athrabeth” but is of a more factual nature, where it is explicitely stated that the Men who came into Beleriand were previously hunted by other Men who worshipped Morgoth, something the Athrabeth cast as a legend. (12)

Food for Thought

~ How much and what do you think Men learned from the Avari? How much did the Avari know about Aman and the Valar thanks to Oromë?

~ We know that the exiled Noldor felt superior to the Sindar, and that the Sindar surpassed the Avari, just as the Avari in turn surpassed Men. Do you think this superiority was expressed in some way? In other words, do you believe that the Avari let Men feel that they were "their betters"? Or was the expression of bias purely Noldorin?

~ To some extent, Men appear to rise higher in the hierarchy of the Noldor than any of the Avari or Sindar ever do. Why do you think that is?

~ Do you think there should be more details about the early days of Mankind in the published Silmarillion or do you not mind the lack of information?

Works Cited

(1) The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "X. Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind".
(2) The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "III. Of the Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor".
(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The Earliest 'Silmarillion'", 6.
(4) The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta", 6 and 7.
(5) The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VII. The Earliest Annals of Beleriand." Years 70 and 100.
(6) The Lost Road, “The Later Annals of Valinor,” VY 2998--3000
(7) The Lost Road, “The Quenta Silmarillion, 7 Of Men and Commentary
(8) The War of the Jewels, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion,” 9 Of Men
(9) The War of the Jewels, “The Grey Annals,” YS 1, §57
(10) Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth”
(11) Morgoth’s Ring, “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth,” Author’s Notes on the ‘Commentary,’ The Tale of Adanel, Note 3, and Appendix
(12) The Peoples of Middle-earth, “Late Writings,” Of Dwarves and Men, II The Atani and their Languages

Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

”Of the Return of the Noldor” is due June 15.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I tend to assume that most of the bias is Noldorin, and that various other (sub-)cultures would have seen the hierarchy differently (or maybe cared less about having a hierarchy, at all.) But of course the mortality-immortality thing will always be a problem for Elves vs Men. (BTW, the most interesting thing for me here is the bit about the judgements of Nienna, which I could not remember at all -- although even the commentary in Lost Tales states that this idea was abandoned in favour of the Gift of Illuvatar. And just as well! The fates suggested for Men do not sound very good, there.)

I agree with everything you said. (And her judgements for Men don't sound terribly pleasant to me, either.)

At least on this issue the confusion in the texts can easily be attributed to the confusion of the Elves about the nature of Men. I find it helpful to remember that from the Elvish point of view, they are the solid, earthy, real people, whereas Men are elusive, ethereal creatures who cannot be held onto. Though I am sure that for the less reflective kind of Elf, Men would just be clever animals (in LOTR, Lindir does compare Men and Hobbits directly to sheep, without anyone objecting).

Ooh, that's an interesting perspective shift I haven't really considered before. (Well, Bilbo does say that he won't argue with Lindir. I've always interpreted that as a polite disagreement and an unwillingness to challenge views he knows won't be shifted.)

None of the Elves present objects, though, so presumably they don't think that it was something that bad (though perhaps someone might have had a word with Lindir afterwards about pas devant les mortels).

I have never been sure whether to interpret that exchange as one between friends (if Lindir and Bilbo know each other well and the teasing is part of their way of talking), or if they have a more formal relationship and Lindir is being rude out of nowhere.

Perhaps it doesn't make a huge difference--the fact that the joke can be made at all is telling.

I've always assumed it was friendly banter.

But you're right, the fact that the comment is made at all - and that everybody seems to know what Lindir's playing at - should give one pause. Even if strictly speaking, he's just talking about poetic style, not about general appearances or the like... ~~I mean, to be entirely honest, I probably wouldn't be able to attribute a couple of different traditional haiku to different authors, either. They all sound like Bashô to me!~~

Even if strictly speaking, he's just talking about poetic style, not about general appearances or the like...

They're also trying to decide if Bilbo is being rude, by presuming to write a poem about ~~Elrond's daddy issues~~ Earendil, which complicates it further! I agree, it's unclear how much is regular snobbery versus poetry snobbery (and how much the latter is just evidence of the former, given the Elves' artistic priorities...)

Just looking at the names that Elves gave to Men
...Engwar, the Sickly, and Firimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, and the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers
Maybe the Nodorin bias was more marked but the text says that these names were given by the Eldar in general so from that to clever talking animals there isn't such a big jump.

And I agree that the fates for Men according to BoLT are not very appealing. The Gift of Iluvatar must have been a solution to provide a Christian type of trascendence without too many details.

Men have feared the Valar rather than loved them and have not understood the purposes of the Powers
Little wonder if the chapter starts stating that the Valar washed their hands off Middle-earth and let Morgoth run wild!

Edited 2014-06-02 16:12 (UTC)

It's not a big jump at all. No wonder they had problems

The Gift of Iluvatar must have been a solution to provide a Christian type of trascendence without too many details.

I think so, too. (One of JRRT's notes in the commentary in the Athrabeth is that the "Old Hope"-- or maybe the Athrabeth in general-- is too similar to and almost a parody of Christianity. He obviously felt less is more in regards to explicit religiousity.)

Little wonder if the chapter starts stating that the Valar washed their hands off Middle-earth and let Morgoth run wild!

Exactly! And that could be applied to the Avari as well. Neither group has much reason to trust that the Valar have plans…

My impression has always been that the Valar were doing their best with incomplete information, and improvising as they went along. Which is much better than thinking that everything they did in the Silmarillion was actually intended.

It's interesting in light of their later roles of Justice and Mercy that originally Mandos judged Elves and Nienna judged Men. They were much more alike at the beginning, more like the impassive and implacable Magistrates of the Hells in Taoism (though of course a person's stay in a Taoist Hell is only a sojourn while sins are expiated before the next round of reincarnation, rather than a permanent sentence).

It is much better than thinking everything was deliberate… but they still could have done more. (But this is one of those things fandom will argue about till the end of time.)

As someone who has to make decisions based on incomplete information all the time, I have some sympathy for the Valar on this.

One of JRRT's notes in the commentary in the Athrabeth is that the "Old Hope"-- or maybe the Athrabeth in general-- is too similar to and almost a parody of Christianity. He obviously felt less is more in regards to explicit religiousity.

I think he was right about this, and wish that the alternate traditions discussed in the Athrabeth didn't hew quite so close to Christian myth--but I did really enjoy reading a story where Men are implied to perhaps know more about their own origins than the Eldar do!

Also, the little details about Wise-women, and all the stories that they are not permitted to share with the Elves. I like to imagine that even the humans who join with the Noldor right away do make an effort to protect/preserve their own traditions.

Also if you squint, some of that stuff about a new and better creation has hints of apokatastasis in it, which was where I nicked my idea that the ultimate aim of the Song is actually to reconcile Melkor and the One. Taken as Christian doctrine this has been somewhat controversial ever since Origen suggested it.

the ultimate aim of the Song is actually to reconcile Melkor and the One.

Ooh, that's an interesting idea! (I had to look up apokatastasis, since my history of philosophy is not what it should be--and had a very enjoyable time reading the Wiki, haha.)

And you can see why quite a lot of people would object rather strongly to that idea, both in Middle-earth and the primary world.

I think he's right, too. There are good parts of the Athrabeth-- that Men know more of their origins is one of them-- but the more overt religiousity doesn't really fit.

I like to imagine that even the humans who join with the Noldor right away do make an effort to protect/preserve their own traditions.

I like to think that, too. And there's evidence that the people who became the Númenoreans kept their own language, so it's possible. (The Myths Transformed stuff explicitly say that the creation myths came from Númenorean tradition and therefore it's another point for that reading, but since MT isn't commonly used, how useful is its evidence is a matter of preference.)

but since MT isn't commonly used, how useful is its evidence is a matter of preference.

Very useful if you consider Elendil the overall compiler/editor of the Silmarillion! :D

Good point! (Have we even mentioned that possibility yet? So far, I think it's been Aelfwine and Pengolodh and the other guy.)

Well, Aelfwine and Pengolodh and Rúmil have all (supposedly) contributed individual parts - not the whole thing! But no, you're right, we haven't mentioned the in-universe editorship (is that a word?) of Elendil yet. Not sure how we could, before we've reached Akallabêth, tbh!

If editorship isn't a word, it is now! Honestly, I have no clue how Elendil fits into the mess-- if I ever knew he was an editor, I'd forgotten-- so I'll trust your judgement. :)

but since MT isn't commonly used, how useful is its evidence is a matter of preference

Oh man, that is one of the best things about Myths Transformed--which I usually ignore because of the changes to Arien's "real" origin story.

I constantly use MT and ignore those changes! (I approach MT like I do pretty much everything in HoME: take what I like and ignore everything else.)

Maybe the Nodorin bias was more marked but the text says that these names were given by the Eldar in general so from that to clever talking animals there isn't such a big jump.

Hm, but at that point, "Eldar" was already used for Elves who had seen the Trees. So, in Middle-earth, the Noldor. (And Thingol, I suppose...) It's not entirely clear whether in this context, Eldar means "all the Elves" as it would have before the Great March, or rather "Elves like the chronicler"!

And I agree that the fates for Men according to BoLT are not very appealing.
I dunno, the "camping in a barren land with starlight and music" doesn't sound as bad as it could be! And some people might enjoy the pseudo-Valhalla option, too. ;)
To be serious, though, I agree that the Gift of Ilúvatar was a good way of removing what Tolkien at that point probably considered unsuitably pagan influences, without introducing some kind of C.S.Lewis-in-your-face Christian alternative ;)

Little wonder if the chapter starts stating that the Valar washed their hands off Middle-earth and let Morgoth run wild!
Seriously! XD

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"Of Men" Discussion Post

Of Men

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