SWG Reread: "Of the Fifth Battle" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion! (And this post is much shorter than last time!)

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine to jump in, even if you haven’t participated in previous discussions. We don’t bite!


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Summary

Beren and Lúthien return to life in Doriath, and Lúthien travels to Menegroth to visit her parents. Melian especially grieves over Lúthien’s mortality. Beren and Lúthien then travel to Ossiriand and dwell on Tol Galen.

Maedhros, hearing of Beren and Lúthien’s deeds, realizes that Morgoth is not unassailable and begins preparations for the Union of Maedhros. However, the oath and its consequences hinder him. Nargothrond refuses to fight, though a small company follows Gwindor and pledges themselves to Fingon. Due to messages from the sons of Fëanor to Thingol (Melian counseled him to surrender the Silmaril) and threats from Celegorm and Curufin, Doriath fortifies its borders and only Mablung and Beleg join, again under Fingon. Maedhros has the help of the Dwarves, and the Eldar also have the support of their mortal allies. Turgon somehow hears of this plan.

However, Maedhros moves too soon, and while he drives the Orcs out of northern Beleriand, Morgoth is warned. He sends more spies and makes more use of his secret allies among the Men following the Fëanorians.

Maedhros is unaware of Morgoth’s preparations and resolves to assault Angband. He will entice the armies out of Angband by crossing the Anfauglith, while Fingon marches in from Hithlum to come behind them, in order to trap Morgoth’s army between them.

It begins on Midsummer day. Fingon’s armies are large-- all of Hithlum is there, along with the Elves of the Falas, Gwindor’s company, Húrin and Huor’s Men, as well as Haldir of Brethil’s. However, Fingon does not know that Maedhros’ armies are delayed due to treachery by Uldor. Suddenly, Turgon’s army of ten thousand appears, giving hope to Fingon’s army.

Morgoth chooses his time well and sends part of his army towards Hithlum. Being well camouflaged, they are not spotted until they have crossed a good portion of Anfauglith. Húrin urged the armies not to attack, guessing it to be a feint. Morgoth’s men reach Sirion, and despite taunts, cannot draw out Fingon’s men. Finally, they bring out Gelmir Gwindor’s brother and hack him to pieces-- by ill-luck, directly in front of Gwindor’s position.

Gwindor breaks ranks and leads many riders after the Orcs. Fingon and his army ride after them, nearly ruining Morgoth’s plan. Gwindor and his men make it to Angband itself and break down the gates. Gwindor is the only one not slain, and he is captured. Morgoth lets out the main part of his force, beating back Fingon’s army. Thus begins, four days into the war, the Nirnaeth Arnoediad: the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Fingon’s army is forced to retreat, and is at one point surrounded. But Turgon’s force comes and wins their way through the Orcs. It is at that point that Maedhros’ armies finally march forth. (Some even say that the battle could have been won had it not been for Morgoth’s secret allies.) Morgoth empties Angband, sending forth wolves and their riders, Balrogs and dragons, and Glaurung himself. Glaurung comes between Fingon’s and Maedhros’ armies.

Uldor’s plot comes to fruition: they suddenly turn on the sons of Fëanor, come near to killing Maedhros, and the secret force they’d summoned comes forth and attacks Maedhros’ army. Maglor kills Uldor, the leader, but Maedhros’ army breaks under assault from three sides. The sons of Bór kill Ulfast and Ulwarth before dying themselves. All the Fëanorians survive, and draw the remnants of their army together with the Dwarves and flee eastward.

The Dwarves are the only reason the dragons did not kill all the Noldor. They encircle the dragons, their axes strong enough to wound them despite the dragons’ armor. Glaurung strikes down Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost, and Azaghâl wounds him badly enough that he flees back to Angband and the rest of the dragons follow him. The Lord of Belegost dies and the Dwarves remove him from the field singing a dirge. No one dares to strike against them.

Fingon’s army is likewise in trouble. Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, drove his army and separated the Elven armies. Turgon and Húrin are forced toward the Fen of Serech. Fingon is left alone to face Gothmog. He is only defeated when another Balrog ensnares him with its whip, allowing Gothmog to strike Fingon dead.

Húrin urges Turgon to retreat back to Gondolin. Turgon says that Gondolin cannot remain hidden for long. Huor tells Turgon that the hope of Men and Elves will come from both their Houses if Gondolin stands for just a little while longer. Turgon retreats with the remnants of both his men and Fingon’s. The Men of Dor-lómin fight as the rearguard, thus redressing Uldor’s wrongs and becoming renowned for it. On the evening of the sixth day of battle, Huor falls along with the rest of the Men, leaving Húrin the only survivor. He is captured and brought to Morgoth. Thus ends the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Morgoth’s designs of driving a wedge between Elves and Men, save for the three Houses of the Edain, were succesful. Fingon’s realm is no more and the sons of Fëanor end up living in Ossiriand. The Easterlings Morgoth shut in Hithlum, denying them Beleriand: They harass the remnants of Hador’s people and the remaining Eldar there end up as thralls. Orcs wander freely, and the only safe places are Doriath, Nargothrond, Ossiriand, and Círdan’s Havens. However, the next year, the Havens are destroyed and the remnants flee to the Isle of Balar and keep a stronghold at the mouths of Sirion. (Gil-galad is among the refugees.) Turgon urges Círdan to send messengers to the West, which he does. The only survivor of the fleet is Voronwë, who is shipwrecked on the shores of Nevrast.

Morgoth is troubled by Turgon’s escape, because Turgon is now the High King of the Noldor and is of Fingolfin’s House. Morgoth has always been wary of Turgon, even in Valinor, due to a foreboding that his ruin would somehow come from him. Therefore he questions Húrin, but Húrin will not betray Turgon. Therefore, Morgoth curses Húrin, Morwen, and their children and binds Húrin to a stone chair. He further curses Húrin to see with Morgoth’s eyes and hear with Morgoth’s ears and to not move until everything is ended. Húrin never begs for mercy or asks for death, either for himself or his family.

Finally, Morgoth orders his Orcs to build a mound of the dead in the midst of the Anfauglith. It is large enough to be a hill and the Elves call it Haudh-en-Ndgenin (the Hill of the Slain) and Haudh-en-Nirnaeth (the Hill of Tears). It is the only place in Anfauglith where grass grows and no follower of Morgoth dares to step foot on it.

Our Favorite Quotes

~ “In those days Maedhros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make new league and common council; and he began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maedhros.”

~ “On the appointed day, on the morning of Midsummer, the trumpet of the Eldar greeted the rising of the sun; and in the east was raised the standard of the sons of Fëanor, and in the west the standard of Fingon, High King of the Noldor.”

~ “Then Fingon looked towards Thangorodrim, and there was a dark cloud about it, and a black smoke went up; and he knew that the wrath of Morgoth was aroused, and that their challenge was accepted.”

~ “Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The Day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!' And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 'Auta i lómë! The night is passing!'"

~ “The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds; and so swift and fell was their onset that almost the designs of Morgoth went astray.”

~ “Now [Turgon] hastened to the aid of his brother; and the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun.”

~ “Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices, as it were funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no more heed to their foes; and none dared to stay them.”

~ “Then Gothmog hewed [Fingon] with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.”

~ “Then Huor spoke and said, ‘Yet if [Gondolin] stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!’”

~ “Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.”

~ “The realm of Fingon was no more; and the sons of Fëanor wandered as leaves before the wind. Their arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild and woodland life beneath the feet of the Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old.”

~ “Then the Havens were laid in ruin, and the tower of Barad Nimras cast down; and the most part of Círdan’s people were slain or enslaved. But some went aboard ship and escaped by sea; and among them was Ereinion Gil-galad, the son of Fingon, whom his father had sent to the Havens after the Dagor Bragollach. This remnant sailed with Círdan south to the Isle of Balar, and they made a refuge for all that could come thither; for they kept a foothold also at the Mouths of Sirion, and there many light and swift ships lad hid in creeks and waters where the reeds were as dense as a forest.”

~ “But grass came there and grew again long and green upon that hill, alone in all the desert that Morgoth made; and no creature of Morgoth trod thereafter upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Eldar and the Edain crumbled into rust.”

Alternate Versions

~ A “Battle of Unnumbered Tears” occurs even in the earliest drafts of the Silmarillion material, but the details are hugely different. “Gilfanon's Tale” suggests that it happened shortly (i.e., a few years) after Maedhros' return from captivity. The only Men involved in the battle appear to be the people of Úrin (Húrin). Turgon and his host cut their way out of the battlefield, rescueing “part of the women and children” . They are pursued, and there is mention of “Mablon the Ilkorin's sacrifice”, but no elaboration. Maidros (Maedhros) and his brother quarrel with Turgon (about the leadership) and depart to the South. All who remain behind “swore allegiance to Melko”, presumably becoming slaves. The outline concludes with the building of Gondolin. (1)

~ The later outline of “Gilfanon's Tale” adds further information. An Elven king is now slain in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, but it is Nólemë (Finwë) rather than his grandson who dies. The Orcs cut out his heart, but Turgon rescues it. In this version it is made clear that other Men than the “sons of Úrin” were initially involved, but they fled. The sons of Úrin are slain, but Úrin is taken alive. In one outline, Tolkien planned to have Melko himself appear on the battlefield for this purpose. Turgon and the other survivors are now not merely pursued, but pursued by Balrogs. Mablon the Ilkorin dies to save the rest, who aided by the magic of Sirion “escaped into a secret place”. The sons of Fëanor no longer quarrel with Turgon, but they come too late; they can only kill the spoilers, and bury Nólemë and the fallen Gnomes under the “greatest cairn in the world”. (2)

~ The first Elvish name for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears is mentioned in “The Lay of the Children of Húrin”, where it is given as Nínin Unothradrin. Men do not merely flee, but betray the Elves, except for Húrin Thalion, who fights to the end and is taken alive. Here, Morgoth has twice reason to capture Húrin, because he suspects that Húrin knows where Turgon has fled, leading to Húrin's torment and the curse upon his offspring. “The Lay of the Children of Húrin” also first mentions the green grass growing upon the Hill of the Slain, and the death of the Elven king Finweg, now a son of Fingolfin. He falls “in flame of swords” - no Balrogs appear to be involved. (3)

~ A later version of the “Children of Húrin” introduces Beleg Strongbow, who was not present for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (now translated as Nirnaith Ornoth) but has heard about the bravery of the house of Húrin. (4)

~ The “Lay of Leithian” first places the Battle of Unnumbered Tears after Lúthien's and Beren's quest for the Silmaril. It is suggested that Men are less cooperative to the Elven cause than they should be because they remember Curufin's and Celegorm's attack on Beren. (5, Canto X) Gondolin must now have been built before the Nirnaeth, as Beren and Lúthien pass above it on Thorondor's back when they are retured to Doriath. (5, The Unwritten Cantos)

~ “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'” introduces more politics. It is now made explicit that Maidros is the instigator of the union against Morgoth, fearing that otherwise Morgoth will destroy them one by one. The Gnomes of Nargothrond, dispatched by Celegorm and Curufin (who do not send as many as they could, so they are partly responsible for the disastrous outcome of the battle), refuse to follow Finweg (Fingon), so they join the forces of Maidros and Maglor. Doriath sends no army for a variety of reasons (ranging from Melian's counsel to Thingol's resentment because Maidros demanded his Silmaril), but volunteers are permitted to join the Gnomish forces. Finweg is slain and his blue and silver banner is prosaically “destroyed”. After Turgon has escaped into the hills with his host, Maidros, Curufin and Celegorm finally arrive, too late for the main battle but in time to save the remaining Gnomes and Ilkorins still fighting the Orcs. They are beaten back and forced to retreat into the South-east “and did not go back to Nargothrond”, where now Orodreth rules over the remnant. The Hill of the Slain is now built by the Orcs, and is now the only place where grass grows. (6)

~ “The Quenta” explains that Maidros forms the union because he sees hope that Morgoth can be assailed after the deeds of Lúthien and Beren. For the first time, the Dwarves are involved, though only by crafting weapons and armours for payment: “We are friends of neither side – until it hath the mastery”. Orodreth is now lord of Nargothrond at his point. He sends no army because of the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin, but those who want to fight are permitted to go. They are led by Flinding (later Gwindor), who already made an appearance in “The Lay of the Children of Húrin”. From Doriath, only Mablung and Beleg come; Thingol sends Maidros' messengers back in scorn. Maidros shrugs it off, but Celegorm and Curufin vow to slay Thingol or any of his folk should they meet them. Maidros takes too long gathering his forces, giving Morgoth time to corrupt Men. The battle goes much as we know it from the published version. Finweg's banners are white, but they are already trodden under foot although there are still no Balrogs. (7)

~ The “Earliest Annals of Beleriand” sum up the events as recorded in “The Quenta” and assign dates to the events: The Union of Maedhros is assembled from 165 to 170. The Nirnaeth Arnoediad is in 172 (though there is no mention of Midsummer yet). The fate of the mortal traitors becomes known: Caranthir slays Uldor, but Uldor's sons kill Bor, his sons and other Men who remained faithful to Maidros. Fingon is now “smitten down by the Balrogs”. (8)

~ In the “Later Annals of Beleriand,” more detail has been added, though Caranthir still kills Uldor and Fingon is killed by several Balrogs. There is no mention of the Havens falling. (9)

~ In the Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth’s treachery is more effective. Due to Maedhros’ delay, Fingon sends heralds to sound trumpets to challenge Morgoth’s army. It’s successful, and in order to prevent Húrin’s advice about waiting to attack from working, Morgoth’s army executes in full view of the army one of the heralds they’d captured, which draws them into battle. Caranthir still kills Uldor; however, Ulfast and Ulwarth are now killed by the sons of Bór rather than the reverse. There is no mention of Gothmog or the Havens. (10) The Dwarves still refuse to take part in the battle despite them making weapons for it, as they don’t know which side is correct-- but a later note by Tolkien said that it wasn’t true Dwarvish attitude. (10, §3 and Commentary) Tolkien had, by virtue of combining previous versions of the story, a confused account of Turgon’s arrival-- in one part of the chapter, he arrives early enough (though still unlooked for) to participate in the final planning. In another part, he arrives suddenly to help Fingon. (10, Turgon’s Part in the Battle) There were no changes made to this manuscript (save a place name) in the Later Quenta Silmarillion. (11)

~ Much of the material in “The Grey Annals” makes up this chapter in the published Silmarillion. The Dwarves now fight; the confusion about Turgon is fixed (to the sudden arrival); Gelmir is now the bait for Fingon’s army; and Maglor slays Uldor. The conversation among Húrin, Huor, and Turgon has been added, as has the Haven’s fall. Gothmog killing Fingon is nonexistent, as is the Quenya rallying cry. (12) However, a later manuscript, deriving closely from “The Grey Annals,” was also used to provide some detail, including the Quenya cry. (13)

~ In Narn I Hîn Húrin, there is a section devoted to Húrin’s conversation with Morgoth. The conversation there takes place on the Hill of the Slain, and Húrin does indeed mock Morgoth, calling him a thrall of the Valar and that he has wasted his power. Morgoth claims that the only reason is that he is not the Lord of Men beyond the Circles of the World is that there is Nothing beyond them. After Húrin tells Morgoth he lies, Húrin is bound in the chair on Thangorodrim. (14) Further details about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad from the Narn have been included in the published Silmarillion, including Gothmog. (13)

Food for Thought

~ Do you think it would have been possible for the Union of Maedhros to work had all gone according to plan?

~ We're all aware that had the battle occurred differently, outcomes would have been different, too. So why the constant reminder that the Noldor could have won the field if not for…? Is it to make the treachery of Men more bitter and/or to maybe show the Curse of the Noldor at work?

~ If the Fëanorians, especially Celegorm and Curufin, hadn’t demanded the Silmaril, do you think Doriath would have joined the Union? How would that have affected the outcome?

~ How do you think Turgon learned of the Union?

~ Despite the ban on Quenya, many people responded to Fingon's Quenya cry with Quenya. Moreover Húrin, born long after the ban, utters a Quenya battle-cry too. What do you think this means for the effectiveness of the ban?

Works Cited

~ (1) The Book of Lost Tales 1. “Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind”, The History of the Exiled Gnomes according to the earlier outlines.
~ (2) The Book of Lost Tales 1. “Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind”, The History of the Exiled Gnomes according to the later outlines.
~ (3) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of the Children of Húrin”, Túrin son of Húrin and Glorund the Dragon.
~ (4) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of the Children of Húrin”, The Second Version of The Children of Húrin.
~ (5) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of Leithian”, Canto X & The Unwritten Cantos.
~ (6) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'”, 11.
~ (7) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Quenta”, 11.
~ (8) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”, 165-170; 172.
~ (9) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, 265-70 through 273
~ (10) The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion, 16 Of the Fourth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnediad
~ (11) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The Last Chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion
~ (12) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §212--250 and §255--257
~ (13) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, Note 2: A Further Account of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears
~ (14) Unfinished Tales, Part One: The First Age, Narn I Hîn Húrin, “The Words of Húrin and Morgoth”

Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of Túrin Turambar” is due October 5.

Comments

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would have been possible for the Union of Maedhros to work had all gone according to plan?

Yes and no. We are told that Morgoth feared his attackers, "and they burst through the Gate and slew the guards upon the very stairs of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne." The closest hints we get of the possibility of actual victory are the fact that Morgoth has been hurt before. Fingolfin crippled him. They did expect their best effort might have one and even Tolkien allows us to believe it might have been possible. Tolkien tells us they might have won if not for betrayal (not to even mention, those potential allies--Doriath and Nargothrond--who refused to join them): "Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

I used to wonder about the potential for victory a lot but now I have come to believe that it is a silly question. Would the Valar have withheld intervention if every single Elf, Man, and Dwarf had joined to fight Morgoth, without major dissension and were endanger of being smashed? What is Thingol could overlook the kingslayings for the moment in order to defend the greater good of all of Middle-earth? Or were the Valar able to sit back and remain neutral because they had convinced themselves that the Noldor so badly needed a lesson in humility that the lives of those innocents allied with them and their dependents did not really matter?

More importantly it is not a modern kind of a story, with logical plot sequences and rational decision-making. It's epic in its inspiration and sources. If one takes it at pure face-value the Valar are all monsters--monstrously cruel and heartless, no matter what Tolkien tells us he would like us to believe about them. They are like some pagan gods or immortals of epic tales and sagas--not Christian saints or angels seeking to teach lessons of patience or humility.

The Silmarillion is first and foremost epic tragedy. Every single time that anything goes right in the fight against Morgoth, one knows that it will only be timed-limited and some horrible mishap, setback, or misunderstanding based on pride or stupidity with turn all accomplishments into vanities, all victories into defeats. And yet everyone is heart-breakingly heroic--even the villains to a certain extent in that they exercise their villainy in utter confidence.

[independence1776]

A silly question or not, it's one I like pondering and I was curious as to what other people thought. (But I'm a diehard fork-in-the-road AU fan, so…)

If one takes it at pure face-value the Valar are all monsters--monstrously cruel and heartless,

That depends on your interpretation of them, though. I tend to think they gave the Noldor exactly what they wanted: noninterference. They warned them and when that didn't work, they let events play out. Punishment or a lesson in humility isn't what I get from them doing next to nothing. (On the other hand, they are somewhat heartless. I just don't think of them as monsters.)

The Silmarillion is first and foremost epic tragedy. Every single time that anything goes right in the fight against Morgoth, one knows that it will only be timed-limited and some horrible mishap, setback, or misunderstanding based on pride or stupidity with turn all accomplishments into vanities, all victories into defeats. And yet everyone is heart-breakingly heroic--even the villains to a certain extent in that they exercise their villainy in utter confidence.

All of this. It's one of the reasons I love the Silm so much-- epic in scope and utterly, utterly human, both the best and worst of us.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

For me, probably because, although I have completely rejected religion, I was raised with a rigorous religious education, deeply aware of the differences between the concepts of vengeful and/or a merciful god figures. All of deaths in Middle-earth in the First Age can never be justified to me as the result of the poor judgment of the Noldor. Not when the War of Wrath at the end proves that successful intervention is possible. What provokes the Valar to punish the Noldor at the cost of the other Elven kindreds completely without responsibility for the rebellion of the Noldor against the Valar, and Edain and the Dwarves? It's removed from any sense of right or morality that I am able to understand. So, no, I am not a Valar-lover. There are a few like or find interesting, not surprisingly those who show more compassion for Elves and/or Men.

I am not saying it was a silly question to raise here. I misspoke myself. I more was trying to communicate that it's kind of tail-chasing question for mepersonally . I can never unravel it without abandoning all of my personal sense of right and wrong, rationality and irrationality, and understanding of human psychology and how politics has worked throughout the ages.

[independence1776]

I come from a similar background, but I tend to be neutral to mildly positive in my interpretation of the Valar, though I can easily see where a more negative view comes from (and have felt that way occasionally). I just don't see them as human and thus think they have an entirely alien morality and thought process that prevents them-- especially at this point in time-- from understanding Elves and Men and what the human cost of their decisions are. (After all, if they really had understood humanity, they would have never rewarded the Edain with Númenor.) And yet, I do think they hold some of the blame for the deaths of the Sindar, Edain, etc. It's one of the situations where everyone is at fault to varying degrees.

Then, too, this is one of the topics that Tolkien fandom can debate endlessly about. :)

I suppose what I was trying to ask was if the Noldor could have succeed at their goal without any non-Beleriand help. So the Valar didn't really enter into it.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I don't see the Valar as heartless, just pragmatic and taking the very much larger view (they're responsible for the whole planet, after all). They would undoubtedly have been happier if the Noldor hadn't left or had left in better circumstances, but since they did, the Valar used the Noldor to pin Morgoth down and distract him, while they sorted out how to deal with him with the minimum damage to the rest of Middle-earth.

Elves reincarnate, so they could get them back anyway, one way or the other (most of them). The real cost of the Beleriand wars was paid by Men and Dwarves and the Beleriand biome.

[independence1776]

The real cost of the Beleriand wars was paid by Men and Dwarves and the Beleriand biome.

This is why I consider the Valar somewhat heartless. So what that all the above are involved in a holding action and it's for a "greater good"; they're still people who didn't deserve to die.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

No, but then neither did the rest of Middle-earth, which would have happened if Morgoth had turned his attention that way. So it actually was for a greater good.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I see this as the inevitable working out of the doom of the Noldor (which I see as merely a prediction, rather than a curse). Because of Curufin and Celegorm's activities in Nargothrond, they alienated Doriath rather definitively, and fatally weakened Nargothrond, thus significantly reducing the resources available to the Union of Maedhros. Even if Uldor's Men had not betrayed the Elves, it would have been a very close call, and in my view, defeat would have been likelier than not, simply on the basis of the resources that Morgoth had available. Recall that he could cause earthquakes and volcanic eruptions (cf. the Battle of Sudden Flame). Not to mention Balrogs, dragons and apparently indefinite numbers of Orcs.

Incidentally, it occurred to me that Uldor might have been Morgoth's plant from the start. In which case one could analyse his actions as fidelity to his true allegiance.

[independence1776]

It does seem to be rather inevitable-- the Fëanorians' actions have long-term consequences and it's caught up with them.

Incidentally, it occurred to me that Uldor might have been Morgoth's plant from the start. In which case one could analyse his actions as fidelity to his true allegiance.

That's an interesting possibility!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

the Fëanorians' actions have long-term consequences and it's caught up with them.

For one thing, the death of Finrod lost them the Elves' greatest expert on Men, who might have spotted something fishy about Uldor if he had met him (or even converted him to the cause). Not to mention that Finrod was Thingol's great-nephew and was probably the only person who might have had the slightest chance of talking Thingol into getting involved with the Union, or at least sending more than two people.

[independence1776]

Yup, Finrod had a lot of knowledge and connections that no one else did. (Though it makes me wonder what Galadriel thought of the Union. Was she even in Menegroth at the time?)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Galadriel's whereabouts are unclear, because of the massive confusion about her history. I don't think Tolkien ever settled on a version. For convenience' sake, I assume that she and Celeborn went East across the Blue Mountains before the Battle of Sudden Flame (ie during the long peace of the Siege of Angband) with whoever wanted to come along from Doriath and Nargothrond, My assumption, based on some of Tolkien's text, is that she realised that the situation wasn't tenable, Beleriand was doomed in the long run, and it would be a good idea not to have all the Elves' eggs in one basket. I expect that she and Melian discussed it quite intensively.

[independence1776]

Galadriel's whereabouts are unclear, because of the massive confusion about her history. I don't think Tolkien ever settled on a version.

That's what I thought. Personally, I think she skedaddled after Thingol refused to give the Silmaril to the Fëanorians. She knew full well how badly things would turn out at that point and wanted to leave before they happened.

[hhimring]

When the Easterlings are first introduced, it actually sounds as if they all are a plant of Morgoth's. Only it seems that cannot really be the case, because, if it were, it would be really difficult to make sense of what happens later. Morgoth must, in the main, be attempting to manipulate them more indirectly, which does not preclude his having loyal followers among them, I guess.
My own possibly uncanonical reasoning was that Uldor might actually have been the one among Ulfang's tribe who was trusted more than the rest and that is why he and his actions are singled out in this chapter. (Out of this, I spun a tale of his being the ambassador to the Eldar who is kept in the dark about his family's plans until just before the Nirnaeth and then pressured into going along with them.)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would have been possible for the Union of Maedhros to work had all gone according to plan?

Quite possibly. For one thing, Morgoth has been progressively weakened by a series of injuries; his hand burned by the Silmarils, his face scarred by Thorondor, his foot crippled by Fingolfin. Lúthien was able to put him into an enchanted sleep. He can no longer shift out of his physical body or create a new form for himself.

Per HoME, we also learn that he's been dispersing his native power into the material world: every Orc or Troll motivated and driven on by Morgoth's malice is another drop of his lifeforce no longer under his control. Like Sauron, he put his essence into a material object - the entire world in his case, rather than a golden ring - which gave him power, but also proved to be a fatal weakness.

In other words, Morgoth is no longer the mightiest Vala who was able to defy all of creation back in the days of the Lamps: he's lessened and weakened.

Secondly - this is something that will come up later on in the re-read, but it's always struck me as interesting that the army of Valinor that finally defeats Morgoth is not an army of Valar. Its leader appears to be Eonwë, one of the Maiar, not a Vala - and in fact he's the only Ainu who's mentioned by name as taking part. The bulk of the army appears to be Elves - the Vanyar and those Noldor who didn't go into Exile - plus the surviving Edain. In other words, Morgoth is finally defeated by Elves and Men, with some divine aid. So as I see it, there's no specific reason why Maedhros couldn't have done it earlier.


How do you think Turgon learned of the Union?

Heh. Good question. Was he still receiving messages from Ulmo via the waters of Sirion at this stage?

Though in the earlier versions of the Silmarillion, Gondolin was hidden by magic from non-Noldor (which is why Tuor needed Voronwë's help to get there), not totally secret - instead it acted as a refuge for escaped thralls of Morgoth. They would presumably bring in news of the outside world, even if once arrived in Gondolin they weren't permitted to leave again.

[independence1776]

Those are very good points about why the Union may have worked. I agree with both! Maybe because I like the thought that the Noldor could have won, but it's an interesting AU to think about. How much would have changed?

The second I find interesting for the simple reason that I've seen plenty of fics that have the Valar there and some that don't (which, as you said, is a discussion point for a later day).

Was he still receiving messages from Ulmo via the waters of Sirion at this stage?

I don't think so. He seems to be rather shut up in Gondolin apart from this. (Though Ulmo doesn't need rivers; the Valaquenta says that "all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains, and springs are in his government." So maybe through the waters there?)

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would have been possible for the Union of Maedhros to work had all gone according to plan?

They started with a number of shortcomings (Doriath, Nargothrond), had bad luck (the Gelmir episode right in front of his brother), had to contend with overwhelming superiority (balrogs, dragons orcs and treachery) and yet they were quite close. I think this is a reflection on Morgoth's weakening and on the Doom (To evil ends shall all things turn that they begin well)
On the other hand, to say even then the Eldar might have won the day makes the battle more poignant than to have them crushed right away.

If the Fëanorians, especially Celegorm and Curufin, hadn’t demanded the Silmaril, do you think Doriath would have joined the Union? How would that have affected the outcome?
Maybe among the weaknesses of the Union we should add Celegorm and Curufin who definitely lost both Doriath and Nargothrond. I'm quite sure Finrod would have joined them

How do you think Turgon learned of the Union?
Eaglemail?

What do you think this means for the effectiveness of the ban?
Censorship seldom works. The Noldor spoke Quenya as their first language and Sindarin for convenience while the Sindar must have picked some even if they didn't speak it themselves.

[independence1776]

I think this is a reflection on Morgoth's weakening and on the Doom

Which makes sense: no one is unaffected by past events, and multiple things shape events.

Eaglemail?

It's a possibility!

Censorship seldom works.

Good point!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that Finrod would have come.