Silm Re-read: "Of Thingol and Melian" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of Thingol and Melian

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Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Summary

Melian is a Maia of Lórien and nightingales follow her. Her singing causes silence in Valimar and the Valar stop working to hear her. When the Quendi wake, she leaves Valinor for Middle-earth. During the Eldar’s journey, Elwë often visits his friend Finwë. As he journeys, he hears the song of nightingales and Melian’s voice. He follows it, and when they see each other, they fall in love and stand in silence as years pass. No one finds him and Olwë takes command of the Teleri, though not all of them choose to continue traveling and choose instead to remain behind and search for Elwë. These Teleri become the Sindar. When Melian and Elwë reappear, Elwë becomes known as Elu Thingol and the couple moves to Menegroth along with many of their people. Of Thingol and Melian will come the most beautiful child of the Children of Ilúvatar.


Our Favorite Quotes

"It is told that the Valar would leave their works, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountains ceased to flow, when at the mingling of the lights Melian sang in Lórien."

"But he came to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face."

“She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Emloth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.”

“And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be.”


Alternate Versions

~ The first mention of this story comes from The Book of Lost Tales 1, in which Tinfang Warble is a son of Linwë Tinto [Elwë] and Tindriel Wendelin [Melian]. It is merely a brief mention that Linwë was lost on the journey and found Wendelin. However, it was crossed out. (1)

~ The second mention is in “The Tale of Tinúviel” from BoLT2. It has been expanded with the addition Melian’s [called Gwendeling] affinity for nightingales and singing, which lay a spell of sleep on the listener. Unlike the published version, Melian danced away and Elwë [called Tinwelint] fell asleep for a long time. But she never went far and they eventually married and settled in a cavern protected by Melian’s spells. (2)

~ An interesting difference arose very early on between the two versions of “The Tale of Tinúviel”: In the first, Ilúvatar had “set a seed of music in the hearts of that kindred” before Elwë wandered off. But in the revised version, the music is a gift in memory of Thingol. (3)

~ Most interesting of all is that Melian and Thingol had two children: Tinúviel and Dairon. (4) Tolkien seems to have discarded this idea relatively quickly, however, as it appears in no other version.

~ Most of the rest of the mentions of the story of how Melian and Thingol met are little more than summaries of the story: they met when Elwë (now called Elwë) wandered away on the journey due to hearing her nightingales singing; he fell asleep for a long while; and they married and lived in Menegroth. (5, 6, 7)

~ Major changes to the story occur in The Lost Road, “Quenta Silmarillion.” In it, Elwë takes Melian’s hand rather than her dancing away, and that is how he is bespelled and lost. (8) This is the first time that this chapter is separated into a subsection-- though it is not yet a proper chapter in and of itself.

~ The “Annals of Aman” in Morgoth’s Ring tell a similar story with a few added details, though it is also divided into years. The “Grey Annals” in The War of the Jewels use a similar format, though the phrasing is different. (9, 10)

~ The most important changes to their story come in Morgoth’s Ring: Elwë was first explicitly named as one of the embassadors in the revisions to the Legendarium that Tolkien made in the 1950s. In the “Later Quenta Silmarillion” it also becomes a proper chapter and the text was greatly expanded. (11)


Food for Thought

~ Is the spell Elwë was under a literal spell or a poetic way of saying they consummated their relationship?

~ Apart from an expansion of the details and Thingol touching Melian, there are few significant changes to this part of the story. Could it be due to the parallels to Beren and Lúthien, that Tolkien was satisfied with it, that he neglected to return to it, or some other reason entirely?

~ After the description of Melian that we're given, it's pretty easy to understand why Elwë immediately fell in love with her. What reasons do you think Melian had for reciprocating that love?


Works Cited

The Silmarillion, “Of Thingol and Melian”
1. The Book of Lost Tales 1, “The Chaining of Melko,” Note 1
2. The Book of Lost Tales 2, “The Tale of Tinúviel”
3. The Book of Lost Tales 2, “The Tale of Tinúviel” and “The second version of the Tale of Tinúviel” (8)
4. The Book of Lost Tales 2, “The Tale of Tinúviel”
5. The Lays of Beleriand, "The Lay of Leithian," Canto III
6. The Shaping of Middle-earth, “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion,’” 2 and “The Quenta,” 2 and “The Earliest Annals of Valinor,” Valian Years 2000 to 2100
7. The Lost Road, “The Later Annals of Valinor,” VY 2000-2010
8. The Lost Road, “The Quenta Silmarillion, ” 3 (b) Of Thingol
9. Morgoth’s Ring, “The Annals of Aman,” §65, §66, §71, and §74
10. The War of the Jewels, “The Grey Annals,” §3, §10, §15, and §16
11. Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion,”The First Phase, “Of Thingol and Melian”


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it! (The questions are starting points, not the only things to discuss.)

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole.


“Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Edalië” is due February 23.

Comments

[mrowe.livejournal.com]

Well, if the 'spell' is a poetic way of saying they consummated their relationship, that immediately answers the third question of why Melian fell for Elwë: the guy clearly has major staying power...

*d&rlh*

[openidwouldwork.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I'm not a native speaker and need more of an explanation of the last paragraph of this chapter...

but of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä. - ? I thought one was a Maia and the other an elf, so the results should be halfelf/half maia? And I don't get the rest of the sentence either...

he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand where do 'all the Eldar of Beleriand' come from? Do these two re-populate the place?

And Melian was his Queen, wiser than any child of Middle-earth; - well, she wasn't a child of Middle Earth she is a Maia, right?

for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering - how did that happen, I misses that

And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be. - judging from what you said above, 'the fairest of all the children' is singular?

*sigh* sorry about that... I think my English is not quite up to the task *starts searching bookpiles for a ranslation*

[independence1776]

*cackles*

[independence1776]

I thought one was a Maia and the other an elf, so the results should be halfelf/half maia? And I don't get the rest of the sentence either…

Ainur is the collective name for the Valar and Maiar. They came from Ilúvatar's side when the universe was created. As for "there came among both Elves and Men"-- Thingol and Melian's daughter is indeed half-Maia, half-Elf, but she marries a Man. (It's a great deal more complicated than that, but I hope that's enough to answer your question. The chapter "Of Beren and Lúthien" is devoted to it.)

where do 'all the Eldar of Beleriand' come from? Do these two re-populate the place?

No, there were some Elves who refused to travel to Valinor without Thingol. They become the Sindar and thus the Eldar of Beleriand.

well, she wasn't a child of Middle Earth she is a Maia, right?

Yes, which is why she's wiser than a child of Middle-earth. She's lived far longer than they've been alive.

how did that happen, I misses that

It's in the previous chapter. Oromë brought Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë (Thingol) briefly to Valinor to meet the Valar and see the Trees.

judging from what you said above, 'the fairest of all the children' is singular?

Yes. "Children of Ilúvatar" is a collective name for Elves and Men.

No need for apologies! That's why Lyra and I are here. (I'm impressed you're reading the Silm in a non-native language. I couldn't do that.)

[dreamflower]

So, Melian is hanging around in the forests of Beleriand, singing with the nightingales, which attracts Elwe.

Why was she doing this? Was she instructed to go there? Does she know her voice is going to attract an Elf? This particular Elf? Does she know he'll fall in love with her? Could it be she already is in love with him?

Clearly there is a whole "destiny" thing going on here. The question is, was Melian aware of it or not?

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I like the idea that Melian kind of fancied Elwe*, and waited for a moment when he was alone to attract his attention (by singing, obviously.)

* Incidentally, isn't he one of the handful of Elves named as "the tallest of all the Elves"? Maybe she was into that. (I think I had her say so in a fic, and mention that he was "proportioned accordingly everywhere else".)

Anyway, I am sorry to be so frivolous. Or am I? Because the main Food For Thought that comes into my head when I hear the story of how they just stood there while a forest grew up around them is "How did they avoid trees growing *through* them?"

[independence1776]

I like the idea of Melian spotting him, finding him interesting, and deciding to do something about it. The thought of destiny/fate gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[independence1776]

Apparently this is the chapter for more less-than-serious thoughts. :)

Because the main Food For Thought that comes into my head when I hear the story of how they just stood there while a forest grew up around them is "How did they avoid trees growing *through* them?"


…I never thought of that. Great question! Her magic? Because otherwise… ow.

[dreamflower]

Clearly I like that idea too! ;)

Perhaps the trees were aware of them and avoided them?

[dreamflower]

Well, I know most people define "destiny" and "fate" as more or less the same thing. But to me, they have different connotations. I find "destiny" to be more positive--someone may have a certain destination in their lives, and they choose to make getting there a personal goal. To me fate is more negative--a person is pushed to a goal willy-nilly.

Think of it as the difference between riding the rapids in a river and being hit by a flood.

Or to put it in Tolkien's terms: the difference between Frodo choosing to take the Ring to the fire, and Gollum being compelled to take it there because of his enslavement to it.

Anyway, fate does give me heebie-jeebies; destiny does not.

(Anyway, her spotting him and deciding to do something about it appeals to me as well--taking herself a little closer to her personal goal, as well as perhaps furthering Eru's own.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Elwe was out visiting a friend. Melian was curious about how things were going on over in Beleriand and nipped over to have a look. They met. It just...happened to happen according to the Song. Essentially, if we take the thing about the Song seriously, Valar, Maiar and Elves have free will, but everything they freely choose to do is going to wind up fulfilling the pattern laid down by the Song. Even when Men are introduced as random notes that might end up turning the whole course of the Song in a different direction, whatever direction it is it will still all end up redounding to the glory of Eru.

You will notice that the Melian/Thingol pattern of older woman/younger man is a recurring one. The only time that it looked like being the other way about (Aegnor and Andreth) the man chickened out with great rapidity. I leave it to other minds to ponder the significance of this.

[ljusastjarnan.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting distinction. :0 Would that mean you believe destiny has more of a choice component to it? You can choose to accept your destiny but fate is something that has already been determined.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

How did they avoid trees growing *through* them?"

Melian was one of Yavanna's people, they wouldn't have dared.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Not just "older woman/ younger man", but also "more powerful woman/ weaker man" - at the very least on a spiritual level. (Melian is a Maia; Lúthien is half-Maia, half-Elf; Idril is a granddaughter of mighty Fingolfin, First High King Of The Noldor In Middle-Earth; Elwing is descended from Lúthien (and thus, Melian); Arwen stems from the Elven line of Eärendil's heirs, and (due to life-length constraints) is a lot closer to the "original". Elwë is a "mere" elf; Beren a "mere" mortal; Tuor likewise (albeit a messenger of Ulmo); Eärendil is at least half-Elven; Aragorn is from the mortal line of Eärendil's heirs...)

The age thing might be easily explained by the self-insert nature of Lúthien/Beren (and everything else is sort of a re-run of them?) -- Edith was three years (THREE WHOLE YEARS OMG!) Ronald's senior. As for the power difference thing, and the significance of the Andreth/Aegnor case... I'll leave that for other minds, too! :D

[dreamflower]

Yes, more or less. You can choose to accept that your life has a purpose, and do what you can to further that purpose, and to make for that destination as best you can. You choose to cooperate with destiny because you feel the goal is worthwhile. This still may not make the journey easy, but you persist because you believe you are doing the right thing--and are rewarded by the goal's achievement.

But with "fate" there's no choice involved, in fact you may resist the goal--but (as the saying goes), resistance is futile. And because of that resistance, fate can destroy its subject. And fate's goal is achieved whether the subject likes it or not.

[independence1776]

Your connotations are interesting; I've never thought of it like that. To me, they're still pretty much the same thing. Destiny is the bright, glorious side that people push on you and that you (may) want to do. Fate is the opposite: you know you can't escape it and don't want to do it. But both are inescapable.

[dreamflower]

True, both lead to an inevitable end. But it can make all the difference in the world in how that end is met.

A lot of things in life are inescapable--that's the nature of living. But it's all in how we take them.

[independence1776]

Good point. Now I'm reminded of the passage in one of the Harry Potter books where Harry compares it to being dragged into an arena versus walking in. (I'm probably mangling that; it's been a while since I read them.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

(and everything else is sort of a re-run of them?)

Variations on a Theme, perhaps, seeing as everything is about the Song.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! :D

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

As for the power difference thing,

I think it's meant to be a wisdom/cultural superiority difference, rather than just a matter of power. Melian was obviously massively more powerful than Thingol, but she was a faithful guardian and therefore not allowed to actually govern any of the Children; she helped and advised but did not herself rule. So I put the Aegnor/ Andreth incident down to Aegnor rather obviously being a lot less wise than Andreth. And also chicken.

Elwing and Earendil were equals by this analysis, being both of mixed ancestry. I expect they married each other simply because there wasn't anyone else suitable, which might account for why Elwing was willing to let Earendil spend all his time at sea while she ruled Sirion. Arwen and Aragorn are actually pretty close in status, apart from the whole mortality issue, since they're cousins. It's certainly not nearly such a huge gap as between Beren and Luthien.

The only time I can think of when the pattern is successfully reversed is when Faramir (High) marries Eowyn (Middle, but with a bit of High from her grandmother Morwen).

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I have this annoying feeling that the women who are less impressive than their husbands are the ones who just get swept under the carpet, in this world. All those unknown wives...

In some other thread (I think in comments to Himring's Such Great Deeds) I suddenly developed the idea that Elwing and Earendil were manipulated into their marriage (through careful use of prophetic dreams and similar) in order to fulfill the prophecy of a Noldorin descendant bringing a Silmaril back to the Valar. One certainly doesn't get a very good feeling about their marriage, does one?

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

My view was that most of the Noldorin wives stayed at home. Finarfin's Council is entirely female. The ones who didn't stayed in headquarters and ran logistics and administration while their husbands were out being heroic on the battlefield. In my mental canon, Reborn Finduilas is now the equivalent of the Mayor of Tirion.

Agree about Elwing and Earendil! Though to be fair, the Jewel-lust and PTSD from the fall of Doriath and Gondolin probably didn't help.

[erendis1.livejournal.com]

I always saw the motif (if I'm incorrect in my usage, please tell me) of powerful, older and higher status woman/younger, less powerful man as relating perhaps to some aspects of courtly love and Marian worship in the Middle Ages.

So I put the Aegnor/ Andreth incident down to Aegnor rather obviously being a lot less wise than Andreth. And also chicken.


I always thought of them as the foil to Beren and Luthien.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed. Neither of them had the courage of either Beren or Luthien. Aegnor ran away for fear of losing Andreth eventually (and thus ensuring that he never had her at all), and Andreth let him.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess we have to be grateful that at least there are a couple ofwomen who are impressive enough to get mentioned... :/

I adore both Elwing and Eärendil to pieces, but yeah, I don't think it would be a particularly happy match. He's away all the time, she's got all the responsibility (and probably gets all the blame too)... historically, not an uncommon occurance, but from a modern point of view, it must have been frustrating at the very least. Interesting idea that they didn't even marry out of (somewhat foolish?) love but (more or less subtly?) got pushed into it!