On Sindarin/Quenya sexual orientation vocabulary and Elven conceptions of queerness

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Hi! *waves* Newbie coming bearing a discussion topic.

I'm working on a femslash fic in mid-Second Age Imladris and was pondering possible ways to describe sexual orientation (or some analogous concept) in Sindarin or Quenya. I'd welcome people's thoughts on the matter.

I started off looking for an analogue to "queer" - something along the lines of "strange, odd" seems like a natural piece of vocabulary for the majority to apply to minority sexuality of whatever stripe - but the closest I could find in any Sindarin or Quenya dictionary was "foreigner" (S. athal, Q. ettelëa), which is a bit far off.

"Gay" is more fruitful - e.g. Sindarin gelir even has "gay person" as the suggested translation in the dictionary I checked (although I'm pretty sure that isn't the meaning they intend! ;)) However, the etymological shift for "gay" to go from "happy" to mean "someone who experiences (only) same-gender attraction" strikes me as more involved than "queer". Looking it up, it looks as if "gay" first started meaning something like "carefree and uninhibited", then took on a connotation of sexual behaviour which encompassed same-gender sexual relations (along with prostitution), then shifted until that was its sole meaning, and finally took on the meaning we know today. (Disclaimer: this is from Wikipedia, so anyone who knows more about this feel free to correct me.) So I figure positing "gelir" or something like it as Sindarin vocabulary for queer people would imply it underwent a similar shift, which means that cultural attitudes towards same-sex relationships among Elves would have been similar to those in the US (or UK?) at the time - in particular, the connection with being sexually uninhibited and, potentially, sex work.

"Lesbian" apparently comes from Sappho of Lesbos, along with the less-used adjective "sapphic". So it seems like one could also posit something derived from the name of a minor canon character (Tinfang Gelion, maybe?) or OC and/or the name of some minor geographic region as a jumping-off point. Ideas would be welcomed.

"Homosexual", "bisexual", "asexual" etc. are of course medical-esque terms of Latin-slash-ancient-Greek extraction (plus "bi" and "ace" derived from those.) I suppose one could attempt to create some similar Quenya term using yérë for sexual desire - although this goes beyond my meagre knowledge of Quenya. And again, this implies similar attitudes to the Western world re: the scientific study of sexuality, and I'm not sure about using Quenya as a Latin-analogue myself given the relatively fraught history and the fact that there'd still be Elves around who remembered e.g. Thingol's ban.

Going outside English for a moment, German offers "schwul" for gay, which apparently comes from "schwül" - oppressively hot and humid. Nobody appears quite certain how that shift in meaning happened, but suggestions are that it refers to the possibly-metaphorical warmth of sex and companionship (I guess similarly to the sexual connotations of "frigid" in English), or referring to the temperature in a brothel. Which again gives us the connection to sex work. (Again, I'm getting this from Wikipedia.) So I guess one could use Q. saiwa, úrin or S. urui - although it seems like this might create confusion with the English sexual connotation for "hot"!

Getting away from creating some analogue to a word we have, one could maybe use something along the lines of "fated" (S. amarthan, maybe) as a riff on the "strange fates" line from Laws and Customs of the Eldar. Although this does rather end up changing the meaning of Amrod/Amras' mother-name...

Of course, all this begs the wider question of what Elven conception of sexuality and alternate/minority sexualities would have been, what the connotation of same-gender relationships would've been and whether they'd have been legal or illegal, what Elven queer subcultures would have looked like, etc. - and how this would have differed among Noldor vs Sindar vs Silvan vs Vanyar vs etc. in different Ages, to boot. I admit at this point that I have very little knowledge of how these things have looked in other cultures and varying points in history apart from "not like here and now", and this would probably be helpful when considering possibilities. >> Possibly one can use the description in Laws and Customs of the Eldar as a jumping-off point for what the normative sexuality would have looked like (so heterosexual marriage, with children, relatively early in life, sexual desires waning after a while) and then contemplate how deviations from that would have been viewed. But really, I have no idea so any input is welcome!

Comments

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I might question whether one needs a Quenyan or Sindarin word. I try to use those sparingly personally, but other people are more liberal with them. I stick to describing preferences rather than interjecting expressions like gay or straight or bi- into a story.

The other questions that sprin to my mind are questions of world-building. Does one envision the Eldar as having attitudes on these questions which resemble present day ones? I think you can write that if you want, assuming the green sun works in your world, that I can suspend disbelief. I more or less write that. Some people try to write European Medieval kind of attitudes (those do not work for me at all, without the accompanying role of the Catholic Church, however).

Tolkien makes a few half-developed and partly abandoned stabs at gender roles, etc., and Elven sexuality, which don't really work for me either. His work of those questions was left in a very fluid, transitional state.

Just saying that I do not see the vocabulary question as a simple straight forward one.

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I generally try to avoid Quenya + Sindarin unless I have a specific reason to use a non-English language - however, in this situation I think I do need vocabulary. I've been missing queer community (in whatever form) in fic and would like to try my hand at referencing one. It feels like talking about preferences is a bit too roundabout whereas having a specific term makes clear that this is a known thing and not just everyone reinventing the wheel over and over. At the same time, terms like "gay" or "bi" would seem far too modern and out of place.

The world-building is where I run into problems. /o\ I'm not inclined towards European Medieval attitudes, because I really don't get much enjoyment out of writing situations where same-sex relationships are viewed as dreadfully sinful or blasphemous and are illegal. At the same time, Tolkien does seem to indicate a very heteronormative society, so I tend to think it would be frowned on if not actually illegal - with Aman attitudes possibly less permissive than Middle-earth. Or there's probably room to work with it being viewed as an immature form of sexuality in some circles, and that people are expected to get married eventually-

Really, I have such trouble with Elven sexuality and mores, just because it seems like immortality should turn everything on its head. With people not dying of old age continuing the family line isn't nearly of the importance it is for humans, after all, and if almost everyone really married at a couple centuries and had kids it seems as though that's just courting overpopulation. But Tolkien's writings don't seem to deal with that at all.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I have such trouble with Elven sexuality and mores, just because it seems like immortality should turn everything on its head. With people not dying of old age continuing the family line isn't nearly of the importance it is for humans, after all, and if almost everyone really married at a couple centuries and had kids it seems as though that's just courting overpopulation.

He deal with it in a fairly unsatisfactory way which is to say that they lose interest in sex. Humans develop impulse control with the passage of time, and Elves are human, but losing interest in sex entirely is often tied to poor health. Of course, there are countless psychological variations and degrees and hormonal fluctuations as well.

I agree that I have a certain amount of trouble with Elven sexuality as it is interpreted by fanfic also.

I think you can try to invent first an English expression you like and then look for a translator. I am personally no good at Elvish languages at all.

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

so I tend to think it would be frowned on if not actually illegal - with Aman attitudes possibly less permissive than Middle-earth.

I did write that. I called it the Laws of the Valar, not the Eldar, that propounded heterosexuality and marriage/kids/loss of sex-drive as being set in stone. It simply happened. Most of the Elves who went to and were born in Valinor simply grew up with this, and believed it, thus it happened. However, they also lived under the miasmic influence of the Valar, which over time, also leached them of sex-drive. (They broke out of that eventually)
For the Elves of Middle-earth, (and all Elves) I write that bisexuality is the norm, and they don't have a word for gay, straight or bi, since it's the natural state.

I never thought about a word in Quenya, since 'aberrant' behaiviour was very hidden. I don't tend to use Elvish at all these days. People (in Valinor) who whispered about those who were unmarried or seemed to display an interest in the same gender would have used derogatory terms.

Of course I pay no mind to LACE, as it does not work for me at all, unless it's like a law handed down from Taniquetil, which is how I use it.

'Strange fates' works for me since they all do come to strange, though not terrible fates. (:

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I am with Oshun, in that occasional Quenya/Sindarin words in an English fic tend to throw me a bit -- unless there is no English word for a concept, of course. But I totally respect your need to sort out what the attitudes that led to a word being picked would have been! And I imagine you have a lot of leeway, since we're not told all that much about any of this. (Even the Laws and Customs are a secondary source -- an anthropological treatise, really -- and are contradicted by canon, where few prominent Elves marry early.)


I do have some interpretations I use in my fics -- the Teleri have a Greek-style model, where some people mess around with same-gender friends before marriage, but this is something one is expected to give up later; the Noldor (at least the Fingolfinians) are trying to cling to something like the Laws and Customs; the Vanyar are pretty relaxed about the moral implications of sex, all round, because they think other things are more important. But I can easily accept other interpretations: Claudio had the Vanyar as fundamentalists, and the Noldor as rebellious against all law, and that worked too. So, I am sure whatever you decide on will be interesting...

Oh, and terminology! This is silly, but my Turgon was upset about the rumours about his brother and Maedhros, for which he blamed Maedhros, and referred to it as the Feanorian Vice. (Leading another character to get confused and ask "which one?") And then somebody else called it the Dwarven Method, because (he claimed) the Dwarves, with their huge gender imbalance, often settle in male-male pairs. I suppose that is a lot like your geography/character-based idea.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The Dwarven Method makes perfect sense. Though Dwarves lived a long time by human standards too. And having re-read "The Hobbit" recently, I have to say that hot though film-Thorin might be, I can't imagine him caring more about his sex-life than about a mountain full of gold.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

It still makes sense: Dwarves might get married to make beautiful gold together.

(More seriously, it's not just the sex, is it? Having a life partner can have many other benefits. A craftsman might appreciate having a permanent assistant/sounding board.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, but they wouldn't necessarily want to live with them too.

[angualupin.livejournal.com]

Terry Pratchett addressed that by claiming that Dwarfs got married "because it was important to have someone to leave all that gold to".

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The Dwarven Method! That is brilliant. (A bit like "Greek love", too, no?) Would you know who coined that phrase? I might be tempted to use it in the future and of course I'd like to give credit.

(I quite like the Feanorian Vice too, though. And it quite makes sense - seven guys, and only three of them married, what's up with the rest? I'm sure there would be rumours! :D)

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Sorry, it was The Dwarven Custom, coined by Maeglin, in the last chapter of my fic Strange Fortunes. Quoting, because the following conversation seems particularly relevant:

[Turgon asked,] "Is it, or is it not true, that you have been indulging in the Feanorian Vice?"

"The Feanorian Vice?" Ecthelion felt a surge of relief—after all, he was not in the habit of attacking his kin, or even of threatening them—but it faded when he recalled which of the stories about Maedhros, that prominent Feanorian, had distressed his lord the most. Still, to be sure, he asked, "Which one?"

"The one that— Well, some people call it the Telerin Taint."

"Do they?" asked Maeglin. "I disapprove of this Noldorin tendency to blame things on the Teleri. I think the correct, neutral term is the Dwarven Custom."

"Neutral, indeed. Too neutral for my liking," said Turgon. "However, we can avoid singling out any race by calling it simply Unnatural Desire."

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

In some antiquated statutes in Common Law countries it used to be called "crimes against nature". Of course, that phrase now means cutting down rainforest and other such environmentally unsound practices.

Indeed, the real Feanorian Vice would be mass murder.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Or sedition, or theft, or arson... Ecthelion's "Which one?" had me in stitches, because it's so appropriate! XD

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

It might help to begin from the beginning, and consider what foundational assumptions you want to make. There are possible points that you might find useful for worldbuilding purposes:

1 Elves are individuals of indefinite longevity, a lifespan measured in geological ages, at the very least, and reproduction will occupy a vanishingly small portion of their lifespans (this sheds new light on their interest in genealogy - someone must keep track of who is related to whom and in what degree).

2 Is sexual orientation considered an important part of personal identity or is sex with whoever just something they do from time to time? For instance, would sexual identity be more important to an Elf than an identity centred on achieving enlightenment about the true nature of the Song or being Aman's foremost authority on insect sensory physiology or being a really good shipbuilder? Especially after they've spent a million years of R&D on the subject?

3 Would there even have to be sub-cultures? Why?

4 "Marriage" in Tolkien is canonically a permanent and biologically unchangeable state connected directly with reproduction, but not all elves marry in that sense.

(a) Would it then be possible to have more than one kind of marriage? For instance, a marriage that is of long standing and includes sex (whether with same or opposite sex) but that does not lead to the union-of-body-and-spirit that reproduction requires. Remember that even in human history there have been many kinds of legal marriage, even within the same society (at some periods the Romans had at least three possible varieties operating at once). There are contemporary societies where a marriage involves no external authorisation beyond the declaration of the parties before witnesses that they are married (and a big party, usually).

(b) Would casual, short-term liaisons among unmarried Elves (anything less than, say, an Age) without long-term commitment be allowed? I don't actually see why not, and if so, there is no good reason to confine them to heterosexual liaisons.


5 Elves live in communities where everyone has millions of years to get to know everyone. Permanent unhappinesses, injustices and inequities would be very hard to sustain over that length of time, not the way that they can be perpetuated over generations among humans (where every generation only has a short time, on average, to endure the misery).

6 The various human neuroses about sex and power (which is basically control over resources) will not necessarily be relevant.

7 The terminology you choose will depend on the kind of social structure and attitudes you choose. It could be pejorative, neutral or positive or a combination of any or all, depending on attitudes towards different practices. It could be as simple as "that person prefers their own sex" (I prefer the singular 'they'; this is much more important than sex). Or, if Elves don't primarily define themselves by their sexual preferences they might not bother to have special terms at all, any more than we have special terms for people who really, really like the colour orange.

[hhimring]

Not that I would necessarily recommend using it, but since nobody else has mentioned it yet, I thought I'd point you to Darth Fingon's article, which includes Tolkien's word for "hermaphrodite" (whatever he meant by that):
http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/linguistic_foolery/22_words.php

[hhimring]

(*Sigh* Trying again, since LJ thinks my previous reply is spam.)
Not that I would necessarily recommend using it, but since nobody else has mentioned it yet, I thought I'd point you to Darth Fingon's article, which includes Tolkien's word for "hermaphrodite" (whatever he meant by that).
It's called: Twenty-Two Words You Never Thought Tolkien Would Provide.
You can find it at the SWG website at: silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/linguistic_foolery/22_words.php

[dawn_felagund]

I just unspammed your previous post! You can always drop me a note if LJ mislabels a comment as spam, and my magical modly powers can have it corrected easily. :) It would be nice if LJ could come up with something better than "it contains a non-LJ link" as criteria or at least contact group mods when something is marked as spam (this one I found by accident). If wishes were horses ...

[marta-bee.livejournal.com]

I write Boromir/Theodred slash in the Gondor corner of the fandom, and one phrase I see a lot is a lover of men. It's usually used for a male character, as in the fact that Boromir loves Theodred rather than Eowyn (or whomever) is remarkable. I'm wondering if something similar might work here? On occasion I've also called the character fated, an allusion to the Laws and Customs among the Eldar line that those elves who didn't marry were suffering from strange fates. (But I have explained the reference in context when I took that route.)

As for translations... I'm sorry, I really don't know! But maybe this will give you a place to start?

I am not sure how appropriate the gay/straight/bi framework is, even if you can find a suitable translation. It seems to imply that the sexual act between men and women is built around sexual attraction and even love, which I'm not sure is really the case at least in the mannish kingdoms I write. I know Elvish marriages aren't arranged but I always got the impression writing about them that they were more like partners than what we might call lovers in the traditional sense. I can't quite explain it, but somehow it seems like the elven drive to marriage isn't quite the same as our modern idea of romantic love.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think Tolkien said something like that - that marriage among elves was usually more like deep and long-lasting friendship than romance, which makes a lot of sense, given their lifespans. After all, human marriages that last usually follow that pattern too, and humans are a blink of the eye to elves.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Personally haven't given the matter of terminology any thought - like some others who have commented, I tend to find random Elvish in fanfic distracting or even off-putting. But if I needed terms for a pseudo-essay (like, I dunno, the Lost Second Part of LaCE or a General Ethnography Of Eldamar) or some other thought-experiment, I'd probably be rather uncreative. My best shot would've been an incredibly clever linguistic joke on some form of "weird" (today used for 'strange', originally meaning 'fated', so it's covering all the bases :P) but as you've already looked up, there's either "strange" in the sense of "foreign", or "fated" which collides with Ambarto.

So alternatively, I might want to go all technical - translating "homosexual" might be a bit too technical, but maybe "homophile"? Except I'm not finding a word for "same" or "equal" in either the Quenya nor Sindarin dictionaries I can easily access, so... maybe not so much.

Based on extant Qenya/Gnomish words - hhimring has already linked to Darth Fingon's essay, I see - like "man-woman" for "hermaphrodite", one might simply say "man-loving [male]" and "woman-loving [female]", perhaps, so *nér-mela and *nís-mela (I have no idea whether there would be any consonant mutation in Quenya here? It feels like there should be, but maybe that would make it look too Sindarin-y). The problem is that mela, like all Quenya adjectives, is grammatically neutral, so only the context would show whether you're talking about a man or woman ("He is man-loving", "She is woman-loving"). This could be made clearer by creating nouns instead, like "man-lover/husband" (*nér-meldo/ nér-venno) and "woman-lover^f/wife (*nís-meldië/ nís-vessë). [I'm not well-versed in Sindarin, so not trying anything.]

As these terms look rather matter-of-fact, without judgemental or insulting overtones, they probably only work if you assume that the culture you're talking about is handling homosexuality, if not as "normal", at least as a reasonably common and societally acceptable variation. So possibly not for the conservative Valinorean Elves, but perhaps for more progressive groups? [Of course, all this is, in the end, your personal choice. "Conservative" doesn't always mean the same - in feudal Japan, for instance, the conservative opinion was that a nobleman married a woman in order to have children, but true love could only be found with another (younger) man - and considering that some ancient cultures seemed to be a lot less inhibited (Achilles/Patroclos, anyone?), we really can't tell how the Elves would have felt about homosexuality etc. (We can probably tell how Tolkien would've felt about it, but then, he also lets his Elves do other things he probably (hopefully!) didn't find acceptable, so that's not actually all that relevant, I think.) I mean, we tend to assume that the Valar are conservative in our sense, but who knows, maybe Manwë and Ulmo had hot, steamy cloud sex all the time. [MAYBE WHENEVER IT RAINS --- ok, shutting up now.] Maybe Nessa and Vána did more than just dance in the meadows. Sure, they all have "spouses", but those are rather parts of the same concept, anyway - the sky and the stars, the rocks and the trees, the flowers and the beasts, etc.. They belong together, but that doesn't mean they can't turn to others for fun or fulfillment :P

Otherwise, "fated" might still work. Doesn't necessarily specify what sort of "strange fate" applies, but then again, "queer" can still also mean "odd [without sexual connotation]".
I also really like tehta's suggestions of "the Dwarven method" or "the Fëanorian vice" - paralleling RL terms like "Greek love" or "sodomy" or "Lesbian" , based either on history, mythology and/or prejudice...

In conclusion (so I finally stop rambling): These are fascinating questions and we can talk about them at great length! Unfortunately, though, I doubt there can be any sort of fandom-wide consensus, so whatever you decide for in the end, somebody will always disagree. So in the end, it's all personal choice. That said, I do hope you'll find what you're looking for, and I'm looking forward to the femslash fic you're writing!

[moetushie]

Your icon speaks the truth. Cousins, yes.

And also, Manwe and Ulmo making it rain... Oh dear, I just hope no one was caught in that shower...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Thank you! It's based on a parody of the Troy movie with Brad Pitt, actually, in which Achilles introduces Patroclos as his cousin. The parody makes fun of this, and somehow I couldn't help stealing the line about "totally my cousin. In conclusion: Cousin."!

I'll never be able to look at the clouds the same way again. Why am I doing this to myself? XD

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

The first thing to do, when deciding how different Elven cultures view homosexuality (or any other topic that LaCE might possibly relate to), is to decide what value of truth you want to assign LaCE. Edict of the Valar? Universally held mores? An arrogant generalization applied too broadly? A poorly informed idealization by an outsider with limited observation? Who composed this much-debated document, and when, and based on what evidence? (Don't say "Tolkien"-- I'm talking about its internal history, the way The Hobbit was written by Bilbo.)

If I ever get around to writing down the Library In My Head, there will be some "crimes against nature" types, and some "love in all its forms" types, and plenty in between. Valinorean Noldor would consider it "part of the Marring" and somewhat of a tragedy given that, due to their strict monogamy (as I interpret LaCE), preference for large families (taking the royal family as an example), and general shortage in Valinor of orphans or unwanted children to adopt (at least before the Kinslaying), there would be very little opportunity for such couples to add to their house. I consider LaCE to be most likely a Second or Third Age document informed by the exilic Noldorin perspective, with plenty of Valinorean nostalgia.

"Strange fates" was a good line to pick up on, and quite possibly the best clue you have for both terminology and attitude-- fated, odd-fated, strange-fated; our nearest equivalent term, of course, is "queer." In terms of attitude, the phrase "strange fates" doesn't sound all that condemning, although of course it ultimately depends on how your characters say it-- "queer" used to be pejorative, after all.

As for translated phrases, I wouldn't bother. The overuse of elvish languages is probably my biggest peeve in Tolkien fanfic. It is my firm belief that dialogue in the native language of the POV character should always be rendered in the native language of the intended audience. Doing otherwise, and forcing the reader to scroll down for a translation, is incredibly distracting. You might notice the absence of Westron dialogue in LotR-- it's all represented by English, and all the Elvish, Orcish, and Rohirric written out is all spoken in the presence of a POV character that is not fluent in those languages. Thus, the burden of translation is something that the POV character and the reader have in common, rather than something that belongs to the reader alone. The only exception to this rule would be either adopted or mangled foreign terms that don't really have equivalents in the language of the conversation. Mercedes Lackey dealt with this exact problem in her Last Herald-Mage trilogy by having her characters adopt (and eventually mangle and make part of the language for the next 300 years) a foreign term for use in a fantasy setting that had no local word for "homosexual" more precise or more courteous than "pervert."

I think the confusion over which "Feanorian vice" is meant by the phrase is very funny too, and "Dwarven custom" also works even if it isn't actually true. A little rumor can go a long way.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Mercedes Lackey dealt with this exact problem in her Last Herald-Mage trilogy by having her characters adopt (and eventually mangle and make part of the language for the next 300 years) a foreign term for use in a fantasy setting that had no local word for "homosexual" more precise or more courteous than "pervert."

Actually, "homosexual" is a lovely real-life example for this practice! After all, the English language (and many others) doesn't use "same-loving" (or "-rutting", or some other actually English term for "sexual intercourse"), but... homosexual. Which is made up of Greek scrap. Of course, there is "gay" or "queer", but both of those terms have a different (older) meaning as well as possibly derogatory overtones.

"Dwarven custom" also works even if it isn't actually true. A little rumor can go a long way.

Precisely! They all have beards -- how is an outsider supposed to know whether they're two guys, two girls, or a guy and a girl? XD Easy to jump to conclusions!

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

Actually, "homosexual" is a lovely real-life example for this practice! Very true! According to the Online Etymological Dictionary, it's a Greek/Latin mishmash cobbled together in Germany. English is a language that is highly accepting of loan-words. But "homosexual" and other very obvious bits of borrowed vocabulary are things that I would avoid using in Middle-earth or any other separate fantasy world that has no Greek or Latin linguistic heritage--they would stick out worse than anything made up.

I suspect the Dwarves are likely to be the butt of a lot of jokes, some of them fairly unkind.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

But "homosexual" and other very obvious bits of borrowed vocabulary are things that I would avoid using in Middle-earth or any other separate fantasy world that has no Greek or Latin linguistic heritage--they would stick out worse than anything made up.

I am very inconsistent in this. As long as a loanword was adopted into English sufficiently long ago (I dunno, until 1700 or so), I'll throw it in. If it's a more modern addition, I'll try to avoid it. So I would have no qualms about "adolescent", but would try to avoid "sexuality". *headscratch*

I suspect the Dwarves are likely to be the butt of a lot of jokes

I am just now refraining very hard from making a silly joke based on the phrase "butt of a joke" in this particular context! XD

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

The "obviousness" of loanwords is a largely subjective measure. Different authors, and readers, have different tolerance levels for it.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Exactly!