SWG Tumblr Satellite: What to Allow on Our tumblr??

[dawn_felagund]

[Those who initially expressed interest in helping set up a tumblr for the SWG have agreed to hold the discussion here on LJ. Anyone is welcome to participate, whether you are part of the group that said you'd help out or not.]

I would like to kick off our discussion of the SWG Tumblr satellite by beginning with the points that were brought up on the first post about the Tumblr satellite. Before we begin, a few points of clarification will hopefully be helpful in keeping the discussion from drifting off in unproductive directions. :)

• This will be an SWG group, run under SWG guidelines. We have always strived to create an online fannish space that is both welcoming and inclusive, as well as civil and open-minded. As such, any decisions made about the Tumblr satellite have to be able to accommodate existing group rules and these goals that are as old as the SWG and indeed one of the reasons I founded it.


• This satellite is not intended to replace any of the other SWG satellites. Tumblr is good for some things and not so good for others. Part of our purpose should be figuring out what it is good for and how we can best use that to allow the SWG to reach more of the Silmarillion fandom.


• Any submissions to the SWG tumblr by non-admins will be moderated, i.e., will have to be approved by an admin before appearing on the SWG tumblr.

I think a good point to begin discussion is: What kinds of content do we want to allow on the SWG tumblr? At a minimum, the tumblr will include group news and announcements from admins. (This would include links to the newsletter, any events we're running, etc. ... the kinds of stuff that we mod-types already post to our satellites as a matter of course.) This is sort of the baseline, and it may be that we decide that this is all we want. However, the original discussion suggested the possibility of including the following as well:

• Silmarillion-based stories


• links to Silm-based stories


• Silm-based artwork


• discussion posts/questions


• questions (i.e., requests for canon/research/language/etc. help)


• round-ups of links to updates on the archive


• round-ups of links to posts/discussions on other SWG satellites (LJ, DW, and Yahoo!)


• announcements from other groups relevant to the Silm fandom (challenges, etc.)


• links to interesting articles/resources (related to Tolkien, fandom, writing, or all of the above!) outside of Tumblr


• links to interesting articles/resources (related to Tolkien, fandom, writing, or all of the above!) within Tumblr

Anything else you could see going on the SWG tumblr??

Several concerns were brought up in the first discussion with enough frequency that I think they bear addressing here as well.

• Reblogging. The nature of Tumblr is that anyone who belongs to the site can reblog anything posted to the site, adding their own comments and presenting the original content to a whole new audience. This means that, while we can require content posted to the SWG tumblr to conform to site rules, then we have no control over what happens to that content once it is reblogged. For example, if we allowed stories to be posted to the tumblr, a person could reblog that story and add nasty or mocking comments that would not be allowable under the SWG's etiquette guidelines. A discussion that starts on our tumblr could be reblogged and devolve into incivility or insults lobbed at the original poster. There is nothing that we can do about any of these things.
  
  The SWG has become a safe space for many people, who know that they can post stories, questions, ideas about the canon, etc. without being attacked, mocked, or treated cruelly. That doesn't mean that we don't have heated discussions and disagreements sometimes ... we do, and this is a good thing. But I like to hope that we also maintain a level of civility in those disagreements where people do not feel attacked or piled upon. I think it is essential to keep this group (even on Tumblr!) as a safe space and a civil space.


• Inability to edit/delete. Once something is posted to the SWG tumblr, my understanding is that the original poster can no longer delete (or edit?) it. Certainly, once something is reblogged, even if the original post is deleted--because we would certainly honor any requests to delete content posted to the SWG tumblr from the original poster--then those reblogs remain in place, and so the content is still publicly available, presumably in its original (unedited) form. This could become a problem for some content, like stories, where the author might be inclined to remove or edit a piece down the road.

So I think the main goal of this first post is to figure out what we want to allow on the SWG tumblr. Of course, any other points of discussion that you want to bring up here are welcome too!

Comments on this post will be publicly viewable. If you have something you'd like to say off the record, our door is always open: Email the SWG mod team at moderator@silmarillionwritersguild.org.

ETA: There has been a lot of productive discussion on this post. Thank you all. I will be holding off on posting the next discussion topic until the beginning of next week, since many people use the weekends to catch up on stuff like this. I am still very much interested in hearing the opinions of our members on the questions above. (Many of the comments are discussions on comments; keep in mind that relatively few people have actually responded! :) Nor are you obligated to wade through 70+ comments in order to participate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on the questions above, even if you don't have time to review what's already been said.

Comments

[silver-trails.livejournal.com]

I'm not comfortable with my stories being in any other place than the SWG site.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Tumblr is the farthest thing from a "safe" space I have encountered on the internet personally. Even ff net does claim to not permit certain types of behavior--try getting them to live up to that and it's a joke!

I saw several troubling things on my Dashboard today. An argument about Hitler. I can't remember what else at the moment. I am developing a thicker skin and the ability to scroll really quickly.

I would think links, announcements, other roundups of information.

I would not put my own fiction up on Tumblr on my own blog. I link fiction to Tumblr from the SWG or AO3. But there are a whole set of Silm writers who are willing to post fic on Tumblr and not on an archive, the logic being it is not ready for Prime Time. I do not understand that logic. If I am insecure about a story or think I want to change it, I can delete or alter the original on an archive. As you noted above, Tumblr is forever, and once anything is reblogged it is beyond one's control.

[huinare.livejournal.com]

I would favor posting links to stories that are archived on the SWG proper, but not posting actual stories themselves on the tumblr. As your summary of the initial discussion points out, it's too easy for posts to fly out of their originators' control. If people want to post their stories on their personal tumblrs, there's always that option for them, but I don't think we want that huge potential for drama to happen under the SWG's banner.

The artwork I'm a bit more iffy about. Theoretically the same concerns would apply, but in the case of art I'm less concerned about drama and more concerned about the artist's credit and/or artist statements being removed. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence on tumblr (to my perpetual disgruntlement).

I think all the other content sounds good, although the discussions would get unwieldy and again there is always the risk of them getting co-opted or derailed.

Re: editing/deleting posts. The original poster CAN edit or delete a post, but neither change will affect any iterations of the post that have already been reblogged.

[dawn_felagund]

We would never post anyone's writing anywhere without their consent. Aside from being illegal, that would be a huge violation of trust and ethics. I hope there's no question that this is beneath us. :)

[silver-trails.livejournal.com]

I know that, dear. I was just saying I would never consent, so you know my position. =)

[ladyelleth.livejournal.com]

At this point I'm thinking that the baseline is a good idea to maintain this tumblr with minimal drama, and if a link to the newsletter is posted that'll contain a fic roundup on the archive for the respective month, the current challenges, etc, so individual links don't seem necessary (I'm sorry I'm contradicting my own ideas here, those weren't very well-thought-out). What I could see in addition would be questions (i.e., requests for canon/research/language/etc. help) - that seems to be working fairly well on places like askmiddlearth (http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com), and without ruffling any feathers, and I don't think us allowing that would infringe on that tumblr's activity, seeing how she gets a high frequency of questions, so it takes a while to answer, are highly subjective, (doesn't provide proper citation), and most importantly doesn't approach the material from a ficcish bent. For interesting (meta) content within tumblr, University of Arda (http://universityofarda.tumblr.com/) already exists, but links to promote activities outside tumblr (like the Around the World and Web section on the SWG site, or any promo material posted to the SWG LJ) might also be nice to have.

Once something is posted to the SWG tumblr, my understanding is that the original poster can no longer delete (or edit?) it.
In general, posts will remain editable indefinitely, but that won't impact any potential reblogs - so, say, if the SWG tumblr posts a broken link, that can be fixed in the original post, but will remain broken in any reblogs made before the correction. The same caveat applies for deletion, no reblogs of a deleted post will be removed. It's with submissions that the submitter will lose all control over a post - once submitted and let through, it operates just like a normal post that was made by the SWG's mods, with exception that it'll be marked as "submitted by" in the header.

[independence1776]

I'm in the "keep it as close to baseline as possible" camp. I've left the fandom there entirely because it's so unpleasant. Discussion would be impossible to run under the SWG banner; things spiral out of control on even the most non-offensive things. And if you'll be crossposting the newsletter over there, I don't see much of a point in doing individual links for things like fics, challenges, etc. (unless they're time sensitive, of the "deadline closes in a week so the newsletter will be too late" type).

If we want to do more:

~ questions (i.e., requests for canon/research/language/etc. help)-- especially if the answers are sourced; most stuff on Tumblr isn't, even in so-called meta. At the same time, if they're sent via Ask or Fanmail, only the mod(s) will be able to see it and answer.

(And add me in as yet another person who wouldn't dream of posting fic there because of the lack of control.)

[just-jenni.livejournal.com]

I find Tumblr on the whole to be very scary and out of control. While I believe it to be a great place for finding and sharing photos and artwork it is horrible for stories except for perhaps more colourful, throwaway fanfic that the author wouldn't mind putting out there to be criticized or mercilessly flamed. What worries me is that once posted on Tumblr a story cannot be completely removed because of the reblogging thing. I know someone who wrote a fanfic, later turned it into an original fic, changed characters' names, etc. and later had the story published by a legit publishing company. She was told to remove all of the original fanfic from all sites where she had posted it otherwise her story would not meet the publisher's rules and she could have lost out on a good deal. Therefore I'd advise don't do it unless you don't care that much about your stories!

[moetushie]

Well, I think it's nice that SWG is getting into the Tumblr game. I'm not really a part of the Silm fandom on Tumblr, but it would be nice to get reminders of upcoming challenges and whatnot from my dash, which where I spend a big part of my time.

[dawn_felagund]

The consensus so far seems to be no stories (or discussions) because of the wild-wild-west nature of Tumblr. I am relieved at this. Posting fiction, imo, seems to be in opposition to several key values of ours, which is problematic (heh) in my view.

I would be okay with posting links to stories, but I haven't seen a lot of discussion on that (at least that I remember, having read through the comments quickly at work).

[dawn_felagund]

I would favor posting links to stories that are archived on the SWG proper, but not posting actual stories themselves on the tumblr.

The latter seems to be the consensus, which I am relieved about. Posting fiction to Tumblr seems to contradict several of our group's values, which is a problem, imo! :) I personally agree about the links too, although I'd extend that to Silmfic posted anywhere (I am not sure if that should include Silmfic posted to personal tumblrs ...) I can see the reasoning behind SWG-only for links; I suppose I am thinking more that posting SSPs to Silmfic posted on sites other than the SWG has always been allowed on all of the satellites.

I'm less concerned about drama and more concerned about the artist's credit and/or artist statements being removed. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence on tumblr (to my perpetual disgruntlement).

Totally agreed. If we allowed art, it would only be posted by the original artist. No posting of art you didn't make! Just like we would never allow someone to post a story s/he didn't write (I don't really understand why art is treated so radically different ...).

discussions would get unwieldy

Yes. Agreed again. Tumblr is awful for discussions, even in my limited experience. And we have this community (and the almost-dead Yahoo! group), which is much better suited for discussions (and allows much more moderation).

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I was presuming the discussion would go to the linked site. But I guess there is no guarantee of that. I could try to check later and see if I can find any story links that caused discussion on Tumblr itself.

[dawn_felagund]

Thanks, Elleth. There is some support up-thread for posting links to stories that are hosted off of the SWG tumblr. (Huin suggested even just stories posted to the SWG archive. I am leaning to allowing a bit more than that, personally [speaking as a member now, not a mod :)].) Kind of like the old-school SSP on email lists. Would you see this as potentially causing problems?

I see your point with respect to the redundancy of a roundup of stories posted to the SWG, since this is included in the newsletter. (Also, these people aren't choosing to link their work on Tumblr and might be opening it up to unwanted commentary/attention as a result? Am I being overly cautious here?)

Questions ... I love the idea in theory, but this would require someone to research and answer the question. If we had a group of people interested in doing that, I could see that being a possible addition. (And, iIrc, you cannot reblog replies to asks? So this would effectively eliminate discussions getting out of hand in reblogs ...?)

[dawn_felagund]

I wasn't sure about this myself. I just asked this very question to Elleth down-thread (i.e., Do links to stories tend to generate troubling discussion?).

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think you are the expert here! Appreciate the explanations greatly.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I have a horror story from today--later have to go let Laura in.

[dawn_felagund]

I'm feeling like posting stories and discussions there has been effectively nixed, even this early in the discussion. Which I am glad about, truth be told, as this seems like it is inviting trouble. (And the fact remains that we have a website and two other "social network" sites where posting fic is allowed. Although I am admittedly unsympathetic to the almost-phobia some Tumblrites seem to feel about posting on archives vs. tumblr since much more control over one's work and the response to it is possible on an archive.)

There is some discussion up-thread of posting links to stories. I am tentatively okay with this--kind of like people used to post SSPs on Yahoo! Groups back in the day when there still was a Yahoo! Groups to speak of--but am curious if posting links to stories has generated negativity in the past that you (or anyone) knows of?

Questions I think would be a good addition except that we'd need someone willing to do that research. Perhaps this might be contingent on how many people we get who are interested in helping with the SWG tumblr? Ideally, I would love to allow this if it was something we have the peoplepower to accomplish.

[dawn_felagund]

No one has spoken in favor of allowing stories to be posted there, so I think this idea is effectively nixed. :) It was something I was going to need persuading to allow in the first place, given how uncomfortable I am with the lack of control over one's creative work, not to mention the nastiness that tends to ensue on Tumblr. However, there has been some favorable discussion of posting links to stories posted elsewhere (maybe even personal tumblrs)? Do you (or anyone) know of this having created problems in the past?

[dawn_felagund]

Awesome! :) At a minimum, we'll be posting that.

Our tumblr is set up, though without content at the moment: http://www.tumblr.com/blog/silmarillionwritersguild

[dawn_felagund]

Uh oh ... *intrigued*

[dawn_felagund]

Ditto! :D Elleth's comment on the first post was the only reason I could set up the SWG tumblr so quickly.

[moetushie]

And followed! :)

[dawn_felagund]

\0/ Thank you! We have four followers now! Yay us! :D

[independence1776]

I'm relieved to hear that!

Although I am admittedly unsympathetic to the almost-phobia some Tumblrites seem to feel about posting on archives vs. tumblr since much more control over one's work and the response to it is possible on an archive.

I get the fear of posting to a new space… but I and everyone else on SWG/ff.net/AO3/MPTT/etc. has done it. I also understand not wanting the jotted-off fics posted with maybe a spelling and grammar check on a proper archive (despite the fact that I see that sort of thing on AO3 all the time). Beyond that, nope. It's impossible to find once it's posted (especially if someone changes their URL) and there's no control. It just doesn't make sense to me.

but am curious if posting links to stories has generated negativity in the past that you (or anyone) knows of?

I haven't heard of anything, but that doesn't mean much. On the other hand, such things have-- in my experience-- only led to likes and and maybe a reblog or two, but never any reviews. (As far as I can tell, Tumblr isn't big on reviewing. "Likes" seem to be it.) So I tentatively don't see a problem with that.

Peoplepower is always the question, isn't it? And given peoples' responses, I'm not sure you'll get it.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Here is the jist of it: "Oh joy. An actual neo-nazi reblogged my response to an ask about humanizing Hitler."

Eeps! I advised her/him not to respond. That is not like arguing with the crazies on the FF net blogs. That is a whole other ballgame.