(no subject)

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

Hello, I'm Gwailome, from Russian Tolkien-fandom, and I've got a conceptual question


Really I had another question on my mind but while wording it I understood I should start with the following:

Could you tell me do you make any difference between canonical Arda and Arda where slash is possible?

If detailed, I believe that Tolkien couldn't even think about homosexual relations as applied to Arda, so if we don't separate these two worlds there comes a question - where from did Elves in Older days get this notion and, moreover, how could they guess about purely technical-physical side of such relations?

I hope I make myself clear

Comments

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't differentiate between "canonical Arda" and "Arda that has slash". Why? Real world history.

In many parts and cultures of the real world, sex between people of the same sex has been or still is being considered (at the least) as slightly deviant and (at worst) a deadly offense. That has never stopped people of the same sex from falling in love with each other and occasionally acting on that love, no matter what the dangers. It's not like the notion of homosexuality only came into being at some point in the 20th century and never existed before. (On the contrary!)

As I basically consider "canonical Arda" an earlier version of this real world - the way Tolkien appears to have envisioned it, too - nothing human is alien to Arda. Or to the Elves, who - again according to Tolkien - are just humans with longer lifespans. So in "my" vision of Arda, various forms of sexuality exist, and have always existed. The Elves in the Elder Days would have gotten the notion as soon as the first two Elven women or men fell in love with each other, were perhaps caught kissing or just confusing their contemporaries by not seeking the company of the opposite sex. As for how they'd guess about the technical-physical side... well, there's only so many bits the human (or Eldarin) body has. Just as heterosexual couples have to experiment a little to find out what makes them happy, so homosexual couples would have to try out whether it feels good to touch that bit to that bit or what. I'm not a man, but I imagine it might be pretty straightforward: You have a hard, throbbing stick that wants to be put into some opening, so (ideally) you ask your partner whether he'd like to try the back door. For example.

(Long comment is too long for LJ; continued below)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Now, the real question is perhaps how people would react to such relationships (if they know about them) and especially to the actual act (if they learn about that). In that case, I guess one could differentiate between "canonical Arda" (taking a narrow-minded view) and "Arda where slash is common and completely accepted". But even then, one doesn't have to. Tolkien really just gives us very few hints about Elven sexuality: a) they like doing it; b) they are monogamous (as I've pointed out in fic before, the actual quote from the LaCE goes There can be union only of one with one - not "one man with one woman", just "one [person] with one [person]" - damn what Tolkien may have intended, this is what he said!) ; c) Incest is not OK; cousin on cousin is incest but half-cousin on half-cousin is OK (Tolkien says that Aredhel and Celegorm could in theory have married, but weren't lovers and didn't want to in HoME 11) and, perhaps most importantly, d) exceptions can be made under certain conditions. So in the one document in which Tolkien actually spells out a few "rules" about Eldarin sex - which is not a very reliable document, internal history considered, and not universally applicable, but it's the one thing that we've got - even in that one thing, the central point is that There has been that one time when the rules were bent a little.
And if they're being bent once, they can be bent again.

So it is not, in fact, "uncanonical" or too wildly speculative to write an Arda where, in fact, homosexual (monogamous ;)) couples are reasonably common and, in fact, generally accepted and blessed by the Valar. We mustn't forget that the Eldar don't have an Old Testament that talks of Abominations Unto The Lord or anything of the sort. (Tolkien very explicitly said "The Third Age is not a Christian world" (Letter 165), and that also goes for the preceding ages.) Whatever Tolkien himself believed, it doesn't necessarily form the basis of Elven mores. (I'm spelling that out here because many people seem to forget that!) They doubtlessly had some rules about various sorts of behaviour, but alas, the Law Codes Of King Ingwë hasn't been translated for us. ;)

Personally, I tend not to write it that way; in "my" vision of Arda, the Elves are just as petty as many humans are, so many view homosexuality (if they get a whiff of it) with a certain discomfort or with outright condemnation. But that's because it goes against their ideas of "How Things Should Be", not because they have some actual basis on which to condemn it. I'm not writing a perfect Arda because Arda isn't meant to be perfect: It has been "Marred" from the beginning. It's up to the individual characters (and the readers) to decide what's part of the actual song, and what's part of the Marring. (I think homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexual behaviour, and thus part of Eru's design; others may think it's an aberration, and therefore Melkor's work. I admit that this is probably the view that Tolkien would have taken; but he could not honestly have said "It does not exist" without contradicting himself. And quite honestly, in a world where people scheme and murder, blaspheme and torture, commit genocide, fratricide, suicide and other atrocities... why exactly would one more "sin" make a difference?)

I hope I actually touched your question with my long rambling answer.

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

Ahha, you've answered my reply even without seeing it)

Of course I remember that line about "one and one, not man and woman")) it's a very... tasty observation)

About Tolkien personal believes: it seems to me that since he was the creator of the world his notions lie in it's foundations, maybe even without his conscious intention

To Arda Marred: for me it's the only justification of slash, and even thus I think it wouldn't be greeted (like the passion of Maeglin to his close relative) and it would be a GREAT exeption (just like the same love from Maeglin or the second marriage of Finwe). In my opinion and from this point of view we have the only one case of slash in Arda ^^

Shifting from personal to general I should say that perception and treatment of slash in T-fandom is mush a matter of mentality. And ours, Russian, is still much more traditional and christian in the sense of moral, not religion. Really we have a radical party which claims that slash is impossible in Arda, and those who say otherwise, but the most part seems not to think about this question or analyse their attitude. But I think it's a vast and complicated field of research

You touched! And very profoundly but quite delicately) I'm greatly thankful but I'd like so much to hear comments from different people to create more or less complete picture

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

About Tolkien personal believes: it seems to me that since he was the creator of the world his notions lie in it's foundations

Doubtlessly. However, he didn't spell out his every notion, so in the case where we don't actually have any authorial statement, conjecture remains conjecture. Even if one notion may be more likely than the other, given what we know about the rest of his beliefs.

To Arda Marred: for me it's the only justification of slash

It's a useful in-universe explanation, yes! That's also why I tend to write that mose Elves rather sneer at the idea of homosexuality, except for a few rebels maybe. But I maintain that it's possible, just as it happens between humans, whether their society approves of the fact or not. I don't personally favour the view of overly "modern" Elven sexual mores, simply because I do try to reconciliate reality with what Tolkien may have believed. I refuse to completely throw reality overboard, though. Therefore: When in doubt, blame it on the Marring! ^^

Really we have a radical party which claims that slash is impossible in Arda, and those who say otherwise

Yes, that's not just a Russian phenomenon, but also occurs in the other branches of the fandom that I know (American, British and German). You ALWAYS have people who say that nobody could possibly be homosexual in Arda, and you ALWAYS have those who say Screw it, everyone's boinking everyone - and of course a lot of people between those two extremes, or people who just don't care.
It really is a fascinating topic, and certainly deserves more research. The problem is, of course, that as you say most people don't analyse their attitude and don't want to discuss it with people who think otherwise.

Phew! I'm glad. And I'm sure others will comment by and by, once they get up in their part of the world. ;)

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

***When in doubt, blame it on the Marring! ^^

Yeeei!!))

Oh, it's a relief to hear we're not such puritan barbarians))

****It really is a fascinating topic, and certainly deserves more research

I'm glad you agree)

***And I'm sure others will comment by and by, once they get up in their part of the world. ;)

Ahahaha, I always forget I'm likely to be the most early geographical bird in this sosciety))

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

Well said Oloriel!

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

Well, of course I'm in the know that homosexual relations have, possibly, humanity-length history!!) But we're talking a) about "unfallen" elves, who are much more "pure" than Mortals, b) about christianity-based world. Homosexual relations are a sign of distortion and are out of law. Here's the question what the Professor thought about it, in the first, but I'm not sure we'll ever know)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Ah, but the "Fall" of the Elves has nothing to do with sex or sexual awakening. The Elven "Fall" is the exile from Valinor, i.e. the direct result of the Fëanorian Oath and Alqualondë (Letter 131). After that, the Elves are no longer "unfallen", and this also settles the "Elves are more pure than Mortals" nonsense: Surely you aren't "purer" than anyone if you can happily hate your (half-)brother, swear blasphemous oaths, steal someone else's property, kill people and burn other people's property. We may not know what Tolkien thought about homosexual Elves, we damn well know that his Elves were capable of murder...

Again, as Tolkien himself said, He himself [was] a Christian, but [Arda] is not a Christian world.
Homosexuality occurs naturally in humans and other animals, so no, it's certainly not a sign of distortion (of what?).
Even if you consider it a distortion, I can only repeat that the author wrote Arda as Marred (=distorted) from the beginning. So again, it's fair to say that homosexuality in Arda may have been generally frowned upon or even considered a sign of the Marring or the work of Melkor; but it doesn't make much sense to say that it couldn't have existed at all. And if mortal people risk persecution or worse because they just can't help whom they love, why should Elves be any different?

Fortunately, many human societies (including some that are Christianity-based!) now consider homosexual relationships legal, so "out of" what "law" exactly are they?

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

(Just to be on the safe side - I'm a slasher and more to it - LGBT, so I'm talking about homosexual things with concern to the space of Arda and not our reality)

Well, when talking about "falling" I meant in the first place the sexual constituent. I'm not a christian and not a religious scholar, so I may be hard to understand and using some notions wrongly) I imply that "falling" of the Elves in my eyes (and as I think Tolkien implied) took place in their spiritual lives and not in sexuality

And I will repeat - even if homosexual relations had place in Arda I think they would be taken hard even by the very persons in relations

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised when I wrote the above reply that you hadn't yet read my second comment. Therefore I thought "Huh, I talked about all that already?!" and was slightly annoyed. Now that I've seen your other comment, I realise that you'd only read my "introduction", so to say, which hadn't touched upon these points yet. No harm done, I hope!

Yeah, that's the thing - the human Fall was basically about "disobeying God", but one of the first results was that humans realised that they were naked and needed to cover up, because they had lost their sexual innocence. The Elven Fall is also about "disobeying [the] god[s]", but the direct result isn't the loss of sexual innocence, but the loss of, how shall we call it? Criminal innocence, maybe. They realised that Elves could die by the hand of other Elves, and that Elves could kill other Elves. Quite a different matter! (Also, the Eldar don't loose their biological immortality after the Fall. The Biblical humans do.)

Yes, that is the way that I write it, too. It happens, but it's not a common occurrance, and most Elves (if they even know that such a thing exists) think that it's wrong. (Of course, some Elves seem to have a hand to do the wrong thing anyway, so probably nobody would be much surprised. "Yeah well, what can you expect from a Fëanorian!")
But others write it a lot more loosely, and that's a legitimate view as well. In the end, we're all just interpreting the original material in the way that suits our motivations! :)

[gwailome.livejournal.com]

Everything's ok) and thanks to it we exchanged more thoughts)

**** "Yeah well, what can you expect from a Fëanorian!"

Indeed!!)

And of course, in the absence of clear quotations everyone has right for a personal interpretation. And sometimes even quotations do not hinder

[independence1776]

I'm with Oloriel in that same-sex attraction exists in Arda no matter what. It may have been in the background and never mentioned, but it's there. It's supposedly our world in the mythical past, so to ignore that is difficult.

I'm also of the opinion that Tolkien's been dead for forty years; whether or not he would have approved of something doesn't matter. (Plus, there's the very strict answer of the only canonical text is what Tolkien himself wrote and that all fic, no matter how strictly adherant to the texts, is noncanonical.)

Basically: I write Elves who aren't straight. I write that not everyone approves of their relationships. Some people do and some people just don't care. (Mind you, I generally write het and/or polyamorous relationships, so I have difficulties with canon in the latter that plain old slash writers don't have. But the main storyline with the poly relationship is deliberately AU, so…)

[dawn_felagund]

Lyra said many things with which I would very much agree. I think that same-sex relationships in Arda are justified simply on the basis of Elves' human nature: Tolkien says in his letters that Elves are of the same species as mortals ("Men") because they can produce fertile offspring. (I am at work and do not have my books, but I believe this is the letter to Peter Hastings; I do not recall the number off the top of my head. I will confirm once back on my laptop or at home and give you a proper cite for that. :) The simple fact remains that homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. is normal behavior for human beings. Therefore, lacking evidence to the contrary, I would assume it was normal for Elves as well.

The notion that Elves are "purer" version of mortals doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. It tends to get trotted out by people who want to sanitize Tolkien-based fanfic of mentions of same-sex relationships (or legitimize excluding those works from groups, archives, etc. on the basis of "canon"), who are more than happy to ignore the fact that Elves murder, lust, kill unarmed people, kill children, rape, blaspheme, betray each other, and just generally act like jerks all throughout the First Age and earlier. I fail to see how they are "purer"; their behavior looks like human behavior to me! :)

The same goes for Tolkien's own views: I refuse to believe that he wouldn't acknowledge same-sex relationships as possible when he allows all of the above. I also like to personally believe that if he could pick a dimension in which he would make Elves purer than mortals, then he might eliminate child murder before striking out loving relationships between same-sex couples ...

The notion of Elves as somehow better than mortals has always seemed to me to be very much a mortal perspective. Here, I think it is worth keeping in mind that Tolkien viewed his writings as a transmission from an ancient, mythic time to the Third Age, where they were translated into Westron (English) by mortals. As such, much of what we see is at least filtered through a mortal perspective in an age where the Elves were beginning to recede from the direct involvement in the world's affairs that they had in the First and Second Ages and earlier. That the mortals were for the most part awed by the Elves is pretty plain in LotR, I think, and probably contributes to the sense that the Elves were somehow elevated morally. But the earlier histories certainly show that they very much were not.

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

I view Tolkien's work as a mythological history, and therefore, like all histories, as biased.

Since Elves are a mythic race who weren't invented by Tolkien, whatever his beliefs or intentions, he could not enforce heterosexuality on them, any more than he could on Mortals.

I believe Elves are bisexual, and that is how I write them. I have to say that the first time I read the Silmarillion, even though I was young, and knew very little about GBLT issues (in fact nothing save that some people liked their own gender) I saw so much homoerotic subtext my eyes were like saucers. That's stayed with me, and so I could never write Elves as anything other than naturally bi; I also believe monogamy was not normal, nor lifelong partnership with one person. (But here I am writing Elves as I want them to be, and completely believe them to be).

I write that the Valar imposed the LACE on them, and the Valar were fallible and wrong, but as for the Elves who never made the Great Journey, they didn't give two hoots, and why should they? I spend one story dealing with homophobia and how it affected people, mainly in the Second Age, and among the Noldor.

I don't really differentiate between canon, and my own 'verse - I simply believe that I'm reading between the lines. :) Also I really couldn't care less what Tolkien wrote, believed, intended, wanted, or about LACE, except as a plot point that affects the characters and their lives.

[dawn_felagund]

These are good points all. L&C tends to get trotted out with regularity whilst forgetting that L&C was 1) written in the early Middle Ages 2) about the Elves of Tol Eressea 3) by a mortal man and outsider to the culture he was writing about. Whether this document would apply even in part to the Elves of the First Age and earlier has always seemed to me to be the decision of the author.

I've always felt that the "no gay on Arda!" contingent is the one that needs to defend the "canonicity" of that viewpoint rather than the other way around. ;)

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

I've always felt that the "no gay on Arda!" contingent is the one that needs to defend the "canonicity" of that viewpoint rather than the other way around. ;)

:D I've never seen any-one defend it other than blustering that 'Tolkien's Elves would never do that' which is about as useful as stating the earth is flat because otherwise we would fall off.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Isn't it almost adorable in its own ridiculous way? They always go "Tolkien wouldn't have ~~approved~~!" Like that proves anything! I damn well hope Tolkien wouldn't have approved of, oh, I dunno, kinslaying - and yet his Elves happily engage in that...

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

I damn well hope Tolkien wouldn't have approved of, oh, I dunno, kinslaying - and yet his Elves happily engage in that...

Apparently killing people is more acceptable than same-sex relationships. Which has always been an excellent reason for not taking the anti-gay-Elves crowd seriously.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! How can you not take such rational and well-thought out arguments seriously!

[ford-of-bruinen.livejournal.com]

also, and i can't remember WHERE I read it but I DO know i checked sources for it probably about 6 years ago when I actually managed to concentrate on such things (ie before small people), Tolkien was classically educated, certainly would have encountered homosexuals in Oxford and he was a huge fan of The Persian Boy and even wrote Mary Renault a letter about his appretiation of her work. I personally believe he would have had a lot less problems with homosexuality than a lot of people think he would. I go between writing homosexuality as completely open and accepted and on the other hand not at all accepted and something really not spoken about. Depends on what suits the story really...

And in almost all cases I write them as monogamous as i am enough of a romantic to like that aspect of love lasting for millenia..

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

This is a field in which I haven't yet done any research (aside from noting a throwaway in the Humphrey Carpenter biography, but IIRC it was just something along the lines "Tolkien was probably aware of what was going on [concerning homosexuality among Oxford students] but didn't approve", though I have no clue whether Carpenter just decided on that for his own comfort or whether there's actually any evidence. I always meant to do that since a friend pointed out certain parallels between the Maedhros-on-Thangorodrim storyline and the respective myths of Ganymedes and Prometheus (which is where the classical education you mentioned would come into play), but... haven't done it yet.

I have my doubts about The Persian Boy as it wasn't published before 1972, i.e. pretty shortly before Tolkien stopped to do any reading. I do recall that he was fond of The King must Die and The Bull from the Sea, though, so that's an interesting point! :D

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Indy wrote a wonderful essay about the reliability (i.e., the lack thereof) of the LaCE. (You probably already know it, but just in case you don't, here it is! (http://independence1776.tumblr.com/post/56051468678/the-in-universe-authorship-of-lace).

I've always felt that the "no gay on Arda!" contingent is the one that needs to defend the "canonicity" of that viewpoint rather than the other way around.

Indeed! :D

[dawn_felagund]

I read Indy's essay on the SWG, but it was good to read it again! :) (It's definitely one that, when I start renewed efforts on the Reference section, I tend to pester her about publishing there!)