SWG Tumblr Satellite: Lingering Questions on What We Will Allow

[dawn_felagund]

Thank you to everyone who has participated in the discussions thus far about our Tumblr satellite. To recap, here are the posts so far:

• Setting Up an SWG "Satellite" Group on Tumblr


• SWG Tumblr Satellite: What to Allow on Our tumblr??

I want to begin by saying that, going forward, I will be presenting certain issues as settled when a strong majority of discussion participants have reached an agreement. However, if you have a concern with the decision as it stands, please bring it up. We can reopen discussion on that issue.

The last post asked what content we want to allow on our tumblr. The following issues were agreed upon by a majority of partipants:

• Posting stories will not be allowed. Posting Silmfic directly to the SWG tumblr will not be allowed. There were several issues raised that led to this consensus: 1) the inability to enforce SWG etiquette guidelines on reblogs (and so the introduction of incivility into SWG spaces, which is not cool) and 2) questions over whether the original author could edit/delete her/his own content.



• Likewise, discussions will not be hosted on our tumblr either for the same reason of being unable to enforce our group's rules on a site that allows reblogs and comments by non-members.



• Posting links to stories by someone who is not the author (fic recs, link roundups, etc.) will not be done. Link roundups, it was widely felt, duplicate what is already available in the newsletter. In addition, several people expressed discomfort with having links to their work posted on Tumblr. While the ability to link is the nature of the Internet, I also strongly feel that I do not want the SWG to enable anything that makes our members uncomfortable.



• Links to one's own stories will be allowed (SSPs). Where there is not consensus is whether those links can point to other tumblrs or if they must point to outside archives/groups/websites. The SWG guidelines do require work to be presented with at least minimal care: "While SWG is intended as a place for authors to get constructive feedback on their work, and works-in-progress are welcomed, authors should nonetheless observe minimal standards of professionalism when presenting their work. Work shared on our site should be proofread by the author, run through a spell-checker, and organized in manuscript format. (That is, stories should be separated clearly into sentences and paragraphs.) While everyone makes the occasional error and we do not require perfection, we do expect that these minimal standards be met." This is something to keep in mind as we make a final decision on the shape we'd like this to take.



• We will allow announcements from other groups about Tolkien-related events/challenges/etc.



• Posting artwork that is not yours will not be allowed. This is a copyright violation that is against both the rules and spirit of the SWG. (Whether posting your own artwork should be allowed remains to be decided--see below.)

The question of whether we should we accept "asks" for questions about the texts generated a lot of discussion and different opinions. Feelings on this range from, "Yes! This would be a cool resource!" to "No! We don't want to get in the business of being seen as trying to be arbiters of canon!" with everything in between, including ideas of how such questions might be used to open discussions on LJ or become a component of the newsletter or the Reference section on the site. I'll be breaking down the various proposals and concerns with each for discussion on a later post, although do feel free to keep discussing it in the meantime, if you want.

So the lingering questions from the last round of discussion that I'd like to figure out answers to in this round are:

• Will we accept submissions of visual art (traditional art, digital art, animations, videos, etc.) by the original artist?


• Will we accept links to stories posted anywhere, including Tumblr? Or must the story be posted on an archive outside of Tumblr? (The "minimal standards of professionalism" already required on the SWG will remain in place for our tumblr as well. A comment I wrote about SSPs on the last discussion post would hold true: "an SSP ... is intended to call attention to a piece that the author thinks is at a point where it publishable quality.")


• Will we post links to articles of interest to the Silm community? If yes, would these articles be only off-Tumblr, or would we allow links to interesting articles/posts on Tumblr as well?

We'll tackle asks next time and then I might actually be ready to start drafting some guidelines for people to gleefully tear apart! :D Thanks again to everyone who has participated so far!

Comments

[silver-trails.livejournal.com]

I have a question. The bios won't be posted on Tumblr unless the author agrees, I hope?

[independence1776]

Visual art: if we don't want stories on the Tumblr for reasons of being unable to enforce the civility guidelines in reblogs, why would we open the possibility of original artists to it? (Though maybe artwork is less controversial than fic.) The other problem is that a large segment of Tumblrites delete credits and such when reblogging.

Fics: Personally, if there are links posted to fics on Tumblr, there's no way to review them without reblogging. Secondly, fics posted there tend to get "liked" rather than commented on. Plus, the site makes it much harder to find and reread them. (And that's ignoring the author not being able to reread reviews-- if there are any-- easily.) And like everything else on Tumblr, it's ephemeral and with a greater propensity for link rot, so it might bring more annoyance than pleasure for readers. So links on stable archives might a) bring more people to post their stories there and b) be easier on readers.

Links: non-Tumblr articles I don't have a problem with. On-Tumblr… it's impossible to keep track of even short discussions there, and from what I remember in my active days in the fandom there, everything is a discussion. There's very little meta-backed-up-with-sources. It's generally "this is my interpretation with vague references to whatever source I'm using because of course you all have the Silm and HoME memorized." And it doesn't take much to turn uncivil.

[dawn_felagund]

No. The only place the bios have ever been posted is the website (except way back in the day when the whole newsletter was cross-posted to LJ, which it is not anymore).

[dawn_felagund]

Thanks, Indy. Those are good points re: visual art. Especially the deletion of credit in reblogs. (Who the hell would--? Never mind.)

Link rot would definitely be a problem. (Although people sometimes delete things at alarming rates on archives too, from one who sees the admin logs! :) But I agree that the expectation of SSPing a story on an archive is that it is in a state that the author wants it more widely read, whereas that expectation seems to exist to a far lesser extent on Tumblr.) Comments aren't necessarily allowed on all sites where stories are posted--someone without an SWG account, for example, cannot comment there--so while I deplore the lack of commentability generally on Tumblr, I'm not sure that only allowing links to archives would boost feedback in any meaningful way.

I share the same concern re: articles on Tumblr. What I don't want to allow are links to headcanons and personal musings ... there is nothing wrong with those things, but I don't think they fit with what we have traditionally allowed on the group. And, from what I've seen and heard, the line between "headcanon" and "meta/essay" is blurry for a lot of people on Tumblr. Again, that's fine; it's the site's culture. But we've always been staunchly old-school: If you say it, you back it up with evidence and citations. Personal analysis is fine, but that should be distinguishable from, say, a synopsis of facts from the texts.

Our plagiarism policy says, "It is imperative that non-fiction authors on SWG include in-text citations that correspond with a list of works cited included with the essay." That could be a prominent part of the Tumblr guidelines as well. However, what I worry about is 1) people don't read guidelines and 2) meta/essays is much more common on Tumblr than on any other sites where the SWG maintains a satellite (including the site itself), and I worry that if we start rejecting a lot of submissions, then we will be creating hard feelings, as tends to happen whenever people feel that a site's expectations are placing some type of judgment on the quality of their work. (I.e., HASA's old review system!) I guess the question for me (as a mod) is whether we're willing to dig our heels in with regard to requiring source citations and allow excellent articles that happen to be on Tumblr to get wider exposure or 2) if we go the easier route and say that Tumblr culture doesn't tend to favor the kinds of nonfiction we're looking for and remind people that the SWG (or MPTT, HASA, etc. for non-Silm essays) are open for those who want to share their research.

Sorry, totally thinking out loud there ... thanks for the feedback!

[independence1776]

You're welcome!

Link rot would definitely be a problem.

It's not that people delete things. It's that people can and do change their URLs at the drop of a hat, because it is apparently very easy. I've clicked on countless "read mores" only to get a "blog does not exist" page.

Comments aren't necessarily allowed on all sites where stories are posted--someone without an SWG account, for example, cannot comment there--so while I deplore the lack of commentability generally on Tumblr, I'm not sure that only allowing links to archives would boost feedback in any meaningful way.

Looking back, what I said doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?

All right, let me try to figure out another way to phrase it. You're absolutely right that anon users not being able to comment isn't a bad thing. But comments/reblogs on a post are lost just as fast as the original post themselves, whether on the dash or in someone's individual blog. There's no handy way to reread anything unless you've bookmarked the link. Links to an archive make it far, far more likely the story will be there and will be easily found without an external bookmark.

Another thing Tumblr culture fails at is the fact that they don't comment. I've seen plenty of fic recs for off-site fics-- and the people posting them have to be reminded to comment on the fic itself. Linking to an archine with a reminder "please review if you liked it" or some such may very well help combat that.

But we've always been staunchly old-school: If you say it, you back it up with evidence and citations. Personal analysis is fine, but that should be distinguishable from, say, a synopsis of facts from the texts.

I am so incredibly grateful for that, it's not funny. I find the headcanon-type stuff to be depressing, like I'm being lectured to, and feeling that I "should" follow it; it's also boring-- I'd rather read fic dealing with it.

I worry that if we start rejecting a lot of submissions, then we will be creating hard feelings,

That absolutely will happen. During that whole debacle a couple of months ago, when I said I personally couldn't take unsourced meta seriously, someone misinterpreted that as me saying "meta is worthless"-- even when I explicitly and publically corrected her interpretation--, unfollowed me, and then PMed me to say that my saying that was causing people to not want to write it and wondering if it was okay to quote me in a meta she was writing defending meta. I did-- I think-- clear it up in our subsequent conversation, but she stopped talking to me anyway. I'm not participating in Silm fandom on Tumblr anymore for a reason.

I vote for Option 2 and have a form response available about the SWG's plagerism and sourcing standards if people ask.

[silver-trails.livejournal.com]

Okay. Good.

[dawn_felagund]

Even I've noticed the changing URLs, which is really bad since I spend probably about five minutes on average on Tumblr per week! :D

I've seen plenty of fic recs for off-site fics-- and the people posting them have to be reminded to comment on the fic itself.

I was rather surprised, upon joining Tumblr, to find several recs for my work or general comments about my work by people whom I had no idea were reading much less enjoying my stories. But then I often get the "but you're too famous to care what I think!" response, which I find ... troubling. For many reasons that it is OT to get into here.

I could just copy your whole paragraph on headcanon and agree. People clearly enjoy it, which is awesome! But it strikes me more as prewriting and so something to keep in one's personal spaces and not on a group blog.

I think I remember that meta incident. The thing about writing off the top of one's head is that things are always in the book in one's mind that aren't actually in the book! :) I am guilty of that as anyone, so that is not meant to be finger-pointing. I once insisted--insisted!--that Nerdanel was identified as a redhead in Shibboleth. The person I was talking to (this was on the Henneth-Annun Yahoo! list) was kind and diplomatic enough to ask me to find the quote for her because she'd never been able to locate it, like it was her shortcoming and not me being daft. Of course, when I went to look for it, it wasn't there. That was a slightly embarrassing lesson learned, but learned it was nonetheless. :)

I am personally (speaking as Dawn not Dawn-the-mod!) in favor of Option 2 as well. I think one of the things to keep in mind is that the SWG archive is open to all fiction and [sourced!] nonfiction about the Silm. If someone takes the time to write a thoughtful, sourced essay on the Silm, we'd love to have it posted on the archive and would gladly then share the link if it was submitted as an SSP.

[independence1776]

I've seen a couple recs for my stuff, but only from a rec community. I honestly have no idea if people on Tumblr are reading them or not (though I suspect so).

But it strikes me more as prewriting and so something to keep in one's personal spaces and not on a group blog.

Thing is, Tumblr is technically a personal space. It's just incredibly public with no control over who sees what or what's done with it. And while it may be a prewriting thing, it still weirds me out because I don't do any sort of prewriting whatsoever!

The thing about writing off the top of one's head is that things are always in the book in one's mind that aren't actually in the book!

Yup! There's always the opposite, too, that one doesn't remember something that actually exists. I remember another Tumblr incident (a minor one) that had someone complaining that the "Fëanor hates Indis' kids" thing has no basis in canon and yet it's all over people's fics and it's wrong… and someone had to point to the passage in Shibboleth where Tolkien says that it did. (I have no idea if the person listened or not.) Sources are a good thing, not just a school thing.

(I have my own theory about why Tumblrites don't source, and it's not necessarily related to laziness or ignorance of how to do it. It could be a factor that, coming from a fandom where, say, there's only a handful of movies, you can say, "that scene in Stark Tower with Loki and Stark" and everyone knows what you're talking about, when in Tolkien fandom there's five main books and well over a dozen supplementary texts, detailed sources become a necessity-- and that hasn't sunk in to people who don't get that not everyone's read them, memorized them, or has access to them.)

I think one of the things to keep in mind is that the SWG archive is open to all fiction and [sourced!] nonfiction about the Silm.

I love that nonfiction can be posted in the archive itself. Hence my Aelfwine meta there instead of a peer-reviewed thing (I didn't think it worthy enough to go through that process).

[dawn_felagund]

Tumblr to me is like a megaphone. It's mine, I personally own it and control it, but I wouldn't put anything on it that I wouldn't shout out with a megaphone into a crowd. I am constantly surprised at the things people are comfortable putting out there given that Tumblr Is Forever.

in Tolkien fandom there's five main books and well over a dozen supplementary texts

Yes. We've talked about something similar before, I think, when you linked me that awesome article about how Silm fandom felt different to someone who had participated in the broader Fandom-with-a-capital-F. Our canon is ridiculously complicated. Tolkien meta is rather like advanced math--you have to show your work! :)

Hence my Aelfwine meta there instead of a peer-reviewed thing

I was probably going to bug you about that when I started my renewed effort on the Reference section ... ;) Of course, I do understand if you want it to stay on just the archive, but I had to chuckle since when I think "Reference section," that essay is one of the thoughts that percolates into my mind ...

[independence1776]

I think there's a false sense of security because of how fast the site moves. Just because it's there-and-gone on your dash doesn't mean it's actually disappeared.

Our canon is ridiculously complicated. Tolkien meta is rather like advanced math--you have to show your work!

We have! And we do. I don't understand how people don't get that. Sources might be annoying to do, but they're for your readers' benefit.

Of course, I do understand if you want it to stay on just the archive,

Lemme think about it. I'm more likely to say yes if it can be posted in its entirety in both places. (Which I wasn't clear on, given how all the other Reference essays posted in the archive proper are links rather than text.) But I still look at all the Reference essays and go, "…Mine's short, mostly cites, hardly any analysis, and nothing like any of those. It doesn't fit."

*looks at the above comment* We have gone completely off topic at this point, haven't we?

[ladybrooke]

I think Tolkien meta is worse than advanced math. :P At least with math, there's a right answer. With meta, regardless of citations, it's all screwy. Some people will think you're 'right'. Other people will think you deserve to be chased down and thrown in a dumpster because you're 'wrong'. And other people will start playing the Swiss national anthem. Granted, I do (to some degree) like both of advanced math and meta, for different reasons, so I'm probably biased. /OT rambling

[dawn_felagund]

Yes we have! :D I stopped using my mod icon when I realized I wasn't really speaking as a mod at all anymore ...

You have time on the essay! I'm not going to even think about working on References until I get this Tumblr thing out of the way and get B2MeM off to a decent start. I don't see any reason why we can't keep the essay in full in both places; we usually put in the redirect so that if you want to make edits, we only have to fix it in one place and it will reflect changes across the site. (This is less an issue with the essays than with the character bios, since they are also posted in the newsletter; if I had to fix one typo, then I had to edit four files. So I started using a PHP include to pull in a single HTML file of essay/bio wherever it was required. But since the archive would probably choke and die if I used a PHP include there, then I forced in a redirect to the Reference section instead. This all sounds like I treat the website very violently, doesn't it? :D) But using the redirect instead of keeping a copy on the archive is certainly not something I'm going to stomp my foot down on and give up an essay that I'd like to see in References. ;)

It might be shorter than most of what's in there but it succinctly addresses what is really (in my mind) a pivotal issue to understanding all of the texts but especially that ever-misused L&C.

And (I'm replying to this comment backward, I think ...) I have found most of the posts about me on Tumblr from doing a vanity search on Google for "dawn felagund" (which I try to do every few months for myself and the SWG so as to hopefully see any possible drama coming before it explodes on our site ...) and discovering Tumblr posts mentioning my name. So yeah ... they're not only findable but not that hard to find, for someone who does the right search.

[dawn_felagund]

You went with my metaphor! That makes me unreasonably happy for some reason. (Probably because--speaking of meta and citations--I have spent most of the day hunting down citations for the paper I'm presenting in December, having a habit of putting in things like CITE or SOMEWHERE IN CH 2 for citations while I'm in a good groove writing and don't feel like stopping to hunt through books.)

At least with citations, you might get thrown into that dumpster, but dangit, at least your argument can't be dismissed as having no basis in the texts! :D

[independence1776]

And now I'm wondering if we've scared everyone else away, given the lack of activity on this post. :P

You have time on the essay! I'm not going to even think about working on References until I get this Tumblr thing out of the way and get B2MeM off to a decent start.

Oh, good. Then I'm not going to think about it until the new year myself, what with Nano, a holiday fic exchange I signed up for, and the community reread to get off the ground.

I don't see any reason why we can't keep the essay in full in both places; we usually put in the redirect so that if you want to make edits, we only have to fix it in one place and it will reflect changes across the site.

Awesome. At this point, the only edit I can think of may be to delete a sentence that makes the essay a bit more wishy-washy than I'd like, but I'm not worrying about it right now. (Which, I'm not in the habit of changing anything after I post stuff, anyway. Once it's up, it's done.)

I wondered about why the redirects are there. Thank you for answering my unspoken question!

Heh. You may convince me yet.

I can't do a vanity search; too much stuff about the Revolutionary War comes up. Which is actually one of the many reasons I like my sceenname, though I hadn't thought about that when I picked it ten years ago. (At this point, I have the feeling if someone called me "Indy" in person, I'd probably respond…)

[hhimring]

It looks to me as if a general tendency that has been observed in previous comments is that most people feel better safe than sorry and possibly even less is more, which will probably apply to the outstanding issues as well?

[independence1776]

Actually on-topic!

I just remembered about a Tumblr community/group blog type thing. It's called "University of Arda" and it basically exists to collect the sort of meta-type discussions that aren't sourced meta. While it's not Silm-centric, affliating with that (so we can direct people there who don't want stick to SWG standards) and going with Option 2 might be the best option.

[dawn_felagund]

And now I'm wondering if we've scared everyone else away, given the lack of activity on this post. :P

:D I'm not surprised that this post is much ... calmer ... than the last. That one asked for much more general feedback, which invites more commentary that encourages one to share their general views on Tumblr ... which are quite passionate, often, it seems! :)

This post's questions are boring in comparison; not likely to provoke the same kinds of strong opinions.

Once it's up, it's done.

That's me too! I reach a point where I no longer allow myself to make even minor edits on pieces (like AMC, which has now been revised, I think, three times).

I wondered about why the redirects are there. Thank you for answering my unspoken question!

You're welcome! It was our slightly awkward way to link References with the archive. :)

Heh. You may convince me yet.

>:^))

At this point, I have the feeling if someone called me "Indy" in person, I'd probably respond…

When I was still participating in SCA, the first time I got called into court, I was called as "Dawn Felagund." >.

[dawn_felagund]

Yes, I follow that blog (whatever that means since I spend about 5 minutes a week on Tumblr ... ) That's a good idea. I think Option 2 it will be. I think, generally, it's better to start small, see how things go, and then extend what the blog is for rather than biting off too much and then having to take options away.

[dawn_felagund]

Yep, since I haven't seen strong views either way on any of them, then I think this is a good rule to follow! :) I just noted to Indy that it is preferable, imo, to start simple/small and add things later, if we want, rather than to bite off too much and have to restrict things later.

[ladybrooke]

I like your metaphor! :D (I've spent most of the semester writing out ASA style citations, it feels like. And there's still a few more to go. I hope finding the citations went easily, at least.)

Well, it can't be dismissed as having no basis if people stop and think. There's still always that one person, but I'm used to 'that one person' from uni.

I could whine about how, after a semester of both my prof and me talking about my project at least once a week in class, my classmates still couldn't even come up with a guess at what a content analysis was. And then a few of them laughed while I was talking about mine...I have the feeling a few of them think it isn't 'real' research. :P People can be silly.