SWG Re-Read - "Of the Coming of the Elves" Discussion Post

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The Graphics Post has been updated again! A big thank you to lignota and ljusastjarnan for creating lovely new banners.

Second, welcome to the first of this fortnight's chapter discussions!
I'm experimenting with a new approach to the earlier versions this time, namely, something essay-ish. If you don't think it works or if you prefer the lists we've done so far, please let me know!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Chapter 3 – Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor


Banner by lignota.


Summary

Although the Valar don't know when or where exactly the first Elves will appear, they know that the arrival of the Elves is at hand. Unfortunately, Melkor is still at large in Middle-earth; moreover, after the destruction of the Lamps there is no significant source of light left outside of Valinor. Yavanna has to put a sleep upon her creations to prevent them from dying. Mandos decrees that the first light that the Elves shall see, so that the Valar do not take action either against Melkor or against the darkness yet – except for Varda, who from the dews of Telperion creates new stars and constellations. The Elves promptly come into the world in Cuiviénen, a bay in North-eastern Middle-earth, as soon as she is done, although the Valar are not aware of them yet. Oromë discovers them by chance at a time when they have already acquired language and song. He is delighted, but many of the Elves are scared by their first encounter, presumably because Melkor has already captured many Elves that strayed too far from the others, causing rumours about a dangerous Hunter to abound. The Elves captured by Melkor may have become the first Orcs.

Those Elves who do not run away from Oromë soon come to trust him, and he stays with them for a while before returning to Valinor and reporting to his brethren. Now the Valar decide that they must overthrow Melkor, and go to war. They swiftly push back Melkor's forces, put a guard upon Cuiviénen so that the Elves are spared from the fallout of the battle and besiege Melkor's fortress Utumno. Finally, Tulkas wins a fair (?) wrestling match against Melkor, who is bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë has forged especially for the purpose. Unfortunately, the Valar do not manage to root out all of Melkor's servants and creatures, and they don't find his second fortress, Angband, commanded by Sauron. Melkor is meanwhile dragged to Valinor and condemned to stay in Mandos for "three ages" before the Valar give him another chance to stand trial.

The Valar now argue what to do about the Elves, left in a world ruined by the war against Melkor. The majority suggests to invite the Elves to Valinor where they can live in safety and peace, and Mandos eventually decides that this will be their course of action. The Elves are initially afraid, as they have only seen the Valar (except Oromë) in their battle-fury, but three ambassadors - Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë - accompany Oromë to Valinor. Returning to Cuiviénen afterwards, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë convince most of the Elves to move home, except for the Avari who wish to remain in Middle-earth. The other Elves prepare for the long journey to the promised land. The people of Ingwë, the Vanyar, are the first to leave, followed by Finwë's people, the Noldor. The people of Elwë and his brother Olwë, the Teleri, are the most numerous. They make very slow progress, and some of them reconsider their choice and decide to follow Lenwë southwards rather than continue westwards.

The next great obstacle is the Great Sea, where even the Vanyar and Noldor stop and withdraw into the woods of Beleriand. Oromë goes to Valinor to ask Manwë what to do next, and the Teleri, urged on by Elwë, get their chance to catch up.



Our Favourite Quotes

"But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-cla hills there were dark creatures old and strong."

"Then [Varda] began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentari, Queen of the Stars."

"And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and the sign of doom."

"In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuiviénen there is no returning."

"In the beginning the Elder Children of Ilúvatar were stronger and greater than they have since become; but not more fair, for though the beauty of the Quendi in the days of their youth was beyond all other beauty that Ilúvatar has caused to be, it has not perished, but lives in the West, and sorrow and wisdom have enriched it."

"And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery."

"Then the Valar passed over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Cuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew nothing of the Great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved, and in the north there were lights as of many fires."

"But many refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of Middle-earth to the rumour of the Trees; and these are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past."

"Long and slow was the march of the Eldar into the west, for the leagues of Middle-earth were uncounted, and weary and pathless. Nor did the Eldar desire to hasten, for they were filled with wonder at all they saw, and by many lands and rivers they wished to abide; and though all were yet willing to wander, many feared their journey's end rather than hoped for it."

"And it came to pass after many years of journeying in this manner that the Eldar took their course through a forest, and they came to a great river, wider than nay they had yet seen, and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars. The river, it is said, was even the river which was after called Anduin the Great, and was ever the frontier of the west-lands of Middle-earth. But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë."



Earlier Versions

This chapter first appears in the Legendarium as part of the Eriol arc. This time, the storyteller is Meril-i-Turinqi, Queen of Tol Eressëa. In Tolkien's early draft, it is no chapter of its own; however, in the Book of Lost Tales 1 it has been published as two chapters, one being "The Chaining of Melko" and one being "The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr", which also treats material that in the published Silmarillion forms later chapters.

As this division suggests, the most significant change to this narrative is the order of events. In the Book of Lost Tales version, the Valar take action against Melkor first, chaining him and bringing him to Valinor; afterwards, the Eldar awake. When the Valar find out about their existence – a discovery made in this version by Varda and Manwë from afar, not by Oromë during his riding – they are so overjoyed that they release Melkor from Mandos early (although he has to remain as a servant in Tulkas' house yet). Accordingly, the Elves come into a world free from Melkor though not from his creatures; and they never live in a Valinor in which Melkor isn't free. (2; 3)

Tolkien seems to have been discontent with this fact early on; when he next records these events in the "Sketch of the Mythology", the Elves awake first, which motivates the Valar to take up battle with Melkor, the way it is in the published Silmarillion (4). This order is maintained both in the "Quenta" (5) and the "Annals of Valinor" (6; 7), so that the Elves now awaken in a world in which Melkor is free, and come into a Blessed Realm in which Melkor is, as yet, a prisoner. Throughout these revisions, the time frame changes somewhat; more interesting than the change in exact numbers, however, is the change in focus. In the "Earliest Annals of Valinor", the events of this chapter take place in the Valian Years 2000 to 2100, beginning with Varda's kindling of the great constellations and ending with the arrival of the Elves in Aman. There is no way of knowing at what time exactly which event happens or how long it takes (6).

In the "Later Annals of Valinor", Tolkien is somewhat more specific. Again, the events occur over a time of 100 Valian Years (this time, from V.Y. 1900 to 2000), but we are told exactly when the Elves come into the world (V.Y. 1950), when Oromë discovers them (V.Y.1980), and when the Valar invite the Elves to Valinor and begin to fight Melkor (V.Y.1990). According to this version, Melkor is imprisoned in V.Y. 2000, and the first Elves reach Aman in the same year (7). The march of the Eldar accordingly takes no longer than ten Valian Years.

Things are quite different in the "Annals of Aman". In both versions, the Valar decide to fight Melkor ten Valian years after Oromë's discovery of the Elves; however, the invitation is only issued after Melkor has been captured and judged. It now takes four Valian Years until Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë have made the journey to Valinor and back, and another year until the Eldar begin their long march, which has now taken on the tedious and often-interrupted form described in the published Silmarillion. In YT 1125, twenty Valian Years after their departure and ten Valian Years after the Nandor forsake the march, the Vanyar and Noldor finally reach the Sea. It takes three more Valian Years before the Teleri make it to the river Gelion. But the journey of the Eldar has not only grown longer in years, but also in words: It is now described at far more detail than the battle against Melkor or even Varda's creation of the new stars. We even learn the names of the leaders of the Avari, Morwë and Nurwë (8). This trend continues in the "Quenta Silmarillion", where we learn what the leaders of the Calaquendi look like and get a whole list of alternative names for the various Elven peoples (9).

One reason for this change may be the steps taken from the narrative form of The Book of Lost Tales towards the chronicle form of the "Annals of Valinor", which naturally came with a lot of streamlining and omission of details. However, the "Annals of Aman" again offer a quite substantial account (8), as does the subsequent "Quenta Silmarillion" (9). Nonetheless, the account of the war against Melkor, recounted in great detail in The Book of Lost Tales 1, remains as brief in the later versions as it is in the "Annals of Valinor". In The Book of Lost Tales, on the other hand, the armament of the Valar, their journey to Middle-earth via an uprooted island, their attempt to parley with Melkor and the trick by which they manage to come into the depths of Utumno and finally overthrow Melkor are told colourfully and at length. These details are never recovered, suggesting a shift in the author's attention from the purely mythological dealings of the Gods to a much stronger focus on Elvish history and experience.



Food for Thought

~ "Naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise." Could this mean that if Melkor hadn't rebelled, he could have made his own creatures in the sense of sentient beings, like the Children of Ilúvatar, rather than something along the lines of Yavanna's work (or Aulë's before Eru adopted the Dwarves)?

~ Do you find the "dates" offered by the various Annals helpful? Confusing? Do you try to stick to (one version of) them, or do you prefer to ignore them?

~ In the Book of Lost Tales version, Manwë is clearly no stranger to deceit yet: It is he who suggests that the Valar should feign to submit and apologise to Melkor in order to get easy and unhindered access to Utumno. In the published Silmarillion, Melkor is instead overthrown in fair single combat with Tulkas, and we are told that Manwë, being "free from evil, […] could not comprehend it". (10) Which version of the Elder King do you prefer?

~ The Avari regarded the Eldar as "deserters" and vice versa. (11, Note 9) Do you think the Elves should have remained in Middle-earth or gone to Aman? What do you think of the Valar's arguments for them staying or leaving?

~ An "ancient legend" offers more information on the very first "Elf-fathers" who awakened, including their names (Imin, Tata and Enel), the clans they came to lead (the Minyar, Tatyar and Nelyar, literally "firsts", "seconds" and "thirds") the exact numbers of "original" Elves (144) and their proportional division among the three clans and before the Great March (11, C. The Clan-names). How seriously do you take this "legend"? How seriously do your interpretations of the Elven characters take it?




Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 3. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "IV. The Chaining of Melko".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "V. The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The earliest 'Silmarillion'".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta".

(6)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor".

(7)The History of Middle-earth: The Lost Road and Other Writings. Part Two: Valinor and Middle-earth before The Lord of the Rings. "The Later Annals of Valinor".

(8)The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Part Two. "The Annals of Aman."

(9)The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "1.3 The First Phase: Of the Coming of the Elves."

(10)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 6. Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor".

(11) The War of the Jewels, Part Four. "Quendi and Eldar"



Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Comments

[openidwouldwork.livejournal.com]

Things are getting complicated... I did keep notes on who's who the first couple of chapters, but by now I'm lost. I know I saw a nice, clickable chart of the Silmarillion characters somewhere... does anyone have a link?

[independence1776]

I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but have you seen this site?

For the rest of the chapters, the important characters are listed in the family trees at the back of the Silm. (Which may not help much, given how many characters there are.)

[openidwouldwork.livejournal.com]

YES, like that! Huzzah!

[independence1776]

You're welcome!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Additionally to Indy's exceedingly useful link (which I didn't know before - good thing you asked for it! :)), I'm not sure whether you know the German Ardapedia (http://ardapedia.herr-der-ringe-film.de/index.php/Hauptseite)? It's useful for looking up further information on characters, places and so on in German (which I've gathered is your native language?). It isn't perfect and not all information is 100% correct (just like Wikipedia ;)), but it can be very helpful if you lost track or need to brush up on something that was mentioned 50 pages earlier and suddenly reappears.

[openidwouldwork.livejournal.com]

something that was mentioned 50 pages earlier and suddenly reappears sneaky things...
Thank you for that link!

[openidwouldwork.livejournal.com]

OMG, the stuff one finds on the interwebs *flails*
Even tv tropes has a Silmarillion character sheet! *headdesk* (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheSilmarillion)

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

Dragging Elves West is like herding cats. I was aware of the migration of the Elves before, but this is my first read through. The way I'd always heard people talk about it made it sound like the Elves who didn't follow where unfaithful or untrue ... but that doesn't seem to be the case at all (unless later chapters add more detail to this.) The Valar aren't delivering unto them the will of Eru, they just want their little siblings to come live with them.

I really liked this chapter. It gave a very interesting context to the Elves that I wasn't expecting.

[independence1776]

The way I'd always heard people talk about it made it sound like the Elves who didn't follow where unfaithful or untrue… but that doesn't seem to be the case at all

It's a subtle (sometimes not-so-subtle) bias in the texts that the closer one is to the Valar, the "holier" they are. It colors how the Noldor treat the Sindar; how the Avari are treated/described; Númenor's downfall is wrapped up in it; and it even trickles down to Gondor's veneration of the West (the Standing Silence in The Two Towers, The Window on the West) and "fall" from the days of the old king and its temporary rise after Aragorn's coronation. So there's a slant against the Elves that didn't follow-- the literal meaning of Avari is "the Unwilling."

The first quote I found (there are others), is from Chapter 10: Of the Sindar: "They are called the Sindar, the Grey-elves of starlit Beleriand; and although they were Moriquendi [literal translation: dark Elves], under the lordship of Thingol and the teaching of Melian they became the fairest and the most wise and skilful of all the Elves of Middle-earth." The implication is that because they were led and taught by those who were either from Valinor or visited it, they were better than other Elves.

I know other people have looked into this in more detail than I, so if you have, please chime in if you want.

I really liked this chapter. It gave a very interesting context to the Elves that I wasn't expecting.

I'm glad to hear that!

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

I have gotten the impression that the Elves closer to the Valar are got benefits and deeper understandings from it, but how those sunderings and differences came about is completely different from my previous, second hand, impressions.

[independence1776]

Ah, okay. I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Yeeaah there's a massive bias in the narrative which I, personally, ascribe to the texts we have "access" to being written by Noldor in-universe, and that said Noldor's outside sources mainly consist of Aman elves and Sindar, not so much Laiquendi, Nandor, Silvan and definitely not Avari. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Pengolodh never got the chance to talk to any Avari at length or at all, let alone seriously study their societies and beliefs and worldviews, you know?

I mean, I'd say there's no doubt the Elves of Aman got a massive leg up in terms of technology, knowledge and resources from the Valar; what I object to is the whole "fairer and wiser and generally better!" slant that is given.

There are two other lines I've seen that really make me wince and that I ascribe to Noldorin bias. Sadly, I can't find the source or exact wording of either and suspect at least one of them is in Quendi and Eldar, and I don't own HoME XII... yeah, I fail at srs Tolkien discussion, sorry. :/

One is about how Sindar like Oropher and Celeborn (+ Galadriel, who counts as honourary Sinda at this point ;)) and, in some versions, Amdír and Amroth, became the rulers of the predominantly Silvan folk living in Greenwood and Lórien/Lórinand; it's ascribed to the Sindar being greater and wiser and more ruler-like so that the Silvans, who had been living happily on their own for millennia at this point, just ~naturally~ bowed to their rulership. Hi, Noldor historians? I don't believe you. :/ (Contrast also e.g. what we're told about Nimrodel in Amroth and Nimrodel, Unfinished Tales - that she didn't like the Elves coming from the West because she felt they brought war with them and refused to speak anything other than Silvan, even after that language had fallen into disuse.)

The second, which is the one I suspect is from Quendi and Eldar, is about how the few Tatyar Avari in Beleriand were very unfriendly towards their Noldorin kin, which is ascribed to jealousy. It's probably because I've been developing a lot of Avari headcanon, but when I read that I just went "Jealousy. Right. I'm sure it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the way the Noldor treat them and talk about them."

[independence1776]

I mean, I'd say there's no doubt the Elves of Aman got a massive leg up in terms of technology, knowledge and resources from the Valar; what I object to is the whole "fairer and wiser and generally better!" slant that is given.

This! And it definitely has to do with the in-universe narrators.

Just because you don't have HoME (or have it memorized) doesn't mean you fail at discussion!

I don't know where the first quote is, but I found the second in The War of the Jewels, "Quendi and Eldar," C The Clan-names. It reads, "The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of them using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance."

I completely agree with your opinion on the matter.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I rather assumed that the Valar's teaching came with a major ethical programme as well. Which, obviously, took better with some of the Eldar than with others.

As for Celeborn and Galadriel, my take was that they came in with significant mastery of High Elvish tech (indistinguishable from magic for mortals), and in Galadriel's case at least, serious and obvious executive and administrative ability. Since in my version of Arda this is probably the rarest talent among the elves (the vast majority of whom would prefer their own projects, whether fishing, singing, dancing, tree-farming or high-tech research), the Silvan Elves simply jumped at the chance of getting someone else to do management.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Here are a few, er, thoughts on some of the Food For Thought issues:
- the dates, like many oft-rewritten parts of the canon, are both confusing and inspiring (in that the different versions cast a different light on things, and can suggest different stories.) I would use whichever version is best for a story.
- I generally prefer my Manwe straight-laced and boring, like a stereotypical middle manager. It matches his later behaviour a bit better, unless he is playing some long and deep game...
- I think the Elves should have done exactly what they did, i.e. split up however they wanted.
- Hmm. That legend. While Ingwe's "cleverness" is amusing, the whole thing is a bit sexist and heternormative. (Even more so than other parts of canon, I feel.) I guess that in my headcanon I see it as a metaphor contrived by a rather conservative person, and probably a Noldo (because of the subtle anti-Ingwe snark, and the very precise numerical info.) I assume the proportions of the clans are about right, though.

[independence1776]

That legend. While Ingwe's "cleverness" is amusing, the whole thing is a bit sexist and heternormative.

Yes. The only part of it I really appreciate is them waking underneath the stars while explicitly being part of a world where the sun already exists. (But that's due entirely to my taking the round earth from "Myths Transformed" as my personal canon, because I can't deal with the scientific implausibility of large, intelligent life existing without sunlight or the flat world.) The rest of it, I'll take it as described: a fairy-tale for children. It's the only way it's palatable to me.

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Although I am totally fine with scientific implausibility, one thing that does frustrate me about the "woke under the stars before sun and moon existed" thing is... by all rights, Elves should be nocturnal? At least the older ones who didn't go to Aman (where, possibly, Treelight formed an intermediate step for acclimatisation). I mean - if your ideal environment and what you're used to is a moonless night, a huge great ball of fire in the sky you can't actually look at directly without running the danger of going blind should not be met with great joy. But at the same time, we have the whole sun-is-good creatures-of-evil-can't-bear-sunlight thing going on. :/

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I would use whichever version is best for a story.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who does that! (Or occasionally ignores them altogether... *coughcough*)

like a stereotypical middle manager.

LOL! I've met some pretty nasty middle managers, but that image will nonetheless stick with me!
I also prefer Manwë in his later innocent-ignorant version - not so much because I want him to be all goody-goody, but because I generally find the idea fascinating that the Valar - even the Elder King! - have their limitations and blind spots. It makes everything more interesting (and, yes, more plausible)...

I think the Elves should have done exactly what they did, i.e. split up however they wanted.

Yep, that was probably the best solution. Although I guess the question remains whether inviting them into Valinor in the first place was such a good idea!

I assume the proportions of the clans are about right, though.

They're suspiciously neat, though, aren't they? I mean, 144 already makes you listen up; and when they split into Eldar and Avari, it's according to a 0:1, 2:2 and 2:4 ratio? What a coincidence! ;) (And yeah, it really looks Noldorin. XD On the other hand, them musical Vanyar may also have been friends of "harmonic" arrangements...)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

My Elvish characters assume the story of their origins to be an amusing fable of Secondborn creation, since they know who the Firstborn of the Firstborn are, both those in Valinor and those who stayed in Middle-earth.

Manwe finds evil unproductive, unfair and generally a pointless waste of time and energy, and is therefore baffled at how irrational Melkor is about everything.

My Theory About Orcs:

Melkor tried turning the Elves into Orcs directly via epigenetic changes, but discovered that the whole spirit/body duality interfered when he tried to breed the result i.e. Eru refused to let the Orcs have independent spirits. So he took the easier but ultimately counter-productive path of growing blanks from Elvish tissue material and running them directly as sub-sets of his own personality. It was counter-productive because of (a) the strain on his own personal power; (b) the inevitable degradation of the fidelity of the copying over generations, especially once he was captured and removed from Middle-earth; and (c) given his own defects of insight, personality and behaviour, the Orcs were of no use at all for anything except chaos and destruction. This made it necessary for him to use Men, who were physically weaker, and a lot harder to control.

If he had been patient and rational (i.e. not Melkor), he could have tried breeding limited sentience (as much as could be achieved in the absence of a spirit, given the constraints of Tolkien's cosmology) into appropriate pre-existing animals and using them instead. He could even have tried recruiting Yavanna's people, instead of Aule's.

[independence1776]

Manwe finds evil unproductive, unfair and generally a pointless waste of time and energy, and is therefore baffled at how irrational Melkor is about everything.

I like that interpretation!

As for orcs: I confess I haven't thought about their origins much. (Which probably explains why I didn't think about the orc origin question!) I generally go with them being genetically engineered Elves, at least at first, and they separated into their own subspecies as time went on. (Immortality is up in the air for the original ones, but doesn't exist for their descendants.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Manwe finds evil unproductive, unfair and generally a pointless waste of time and energy, and is therefore baffled at how irrational Melkor is about everything.

Hah! That actually makes a lot of sense!

If he had been patient and rational (i.e. not Melkor)

*snickersnicker*

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I loved the passage in HoME that eventually Melkor got impatient, frustrated and bored with trying to turn Elves into Orcs, and passed the whole job over to Sauron instead... :)

(And of course Sauron ensured that Orcs would be loyal to him as well as Melkor, since Sauron is Lawful Evil as opposed to Melkor's Chaotic Evil. He plans ahead, while Melkor just smashes things.)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I'm going to post this here, since drawing it up did help me to make sense of the sizes of the different kindreds of Elves:



I also worked out once that if you start with 144 Elves, assume that an Elf gets married at age 50 then proceeds to have 3 children over the course of the next 10 years, then stops having more children (so a generation is 60 years), that Melkor captured 5% of each new generation of Elves after discovering them, and that none die for other reasons - then there'd be just over 15,000 Elves at Cuiviénen in YT 1104 when Oromë delivers the invitation to come and live in Valinor.

Then again, I also think the "144 Elves" number is just a fairy-story, not literally true. Or maybe it's the Elven equivalent of using 100 as the index baseline for statistical calculations.

[independence1776]

Thank you! That chart's definitely handy.

Those calculations are interesting-- I hadn't expected that many. Then again, I've never been sure of how many Elves are anywhere at any given point.

Or maybe it's the Elven equivalent of using 100 as the index baseline for statistical calculations.

I like that! It makes sense because of the yéni. I recall reading somewhere that Elves preferred base 12.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

For the 15,000 number, I did stack the odds in favour of the largest possible total. :)

I'm assuming that (1) every single Elf gets married (to someone of the opposite sex) as soon as they come of age, which is unlikely; and (2) every Elf couple has an average of three children, which is perhaps a bit more reasonable; and (3) that each Elf couple has all their children within 10 solar years of getting married, rather than spacing them out over a century or three - which certainly doesn't accord with what we know of later Elven families.

Still, none of that is impossible; and it does allow the number of Elves to increase by two orders of magnitude over the course of 540 years. Compound interest is a scary thing, especially when your base population is immortal and doesn't die when each new generation grows up...


I think the only solid, canonical figure for Elven numbers Tolkien ever gave in the Silmarillion was that the Army of Gondolin at Nirnaeth Arnoediad had 10,000 soldiers. But even then, we don't know if that represents just the professional warrior elite of the city, or if Turgon took every man and woman who could hold a bow or a sword, and left the city empty behind him...