SWG Re-Read - "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" Discussion Post

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Chapter 7 – Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor


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Summary

Melkor is already jealous of the Noldor and their skill, but his jealousy reaches new limits when Fëanor creates three perfect jewels that are harder than diamonds and shine with an inner fire made of the radiance of the Two Trees. In spite of his consuming desire for the Silmarils, Melkor manages to proceed very subtly in his attempts to drive a wedge between Elves and Valar. He secretly tells the Noldor that they are being kept prisoners by the Valar and could rule vast kingdoms in Middle-earth, but that the Valar fear their power and beauty. He also tells them about the coming of Men even though he knows very little about that himself. The Noldor do not even fully realise where all this information comes from because it spreads by secret whispers and because Melkor manages to make them believe that they came to their own conclusions. Melkor succeeds in making the Noldor speak out against the Valar, but he still cannot get his hands on the Silmarils, which Fëanor guards anxiously. So Melkor begins to work specifically on Fëanor and his brothers, claiming that Fingolfin wants to usurp Fëanor's rights as the firstborn and that Fëanor wants to use his influence on Finwë to drive Fingolfin and Finarfin from Tirion. Melkor also talks to the Noldor about weaponry, and they begin to forge swords and other weapons, although openly they only show shields with the badges of their houses. Fëanor voices his intention to rebel against the Valar and deliver the Noldor from thraldom.

Finwë is worried about the unrest among his people. When he summons his lords to council, Fingolfin speaks out against Fëanor, assuring Finwë that even if Fëanor wants to rebel against the Valar, Fingolfin and Finarfin will stand faithfully behind their father's decision to lead the Noldor to Valinor. Fëanor, armed and angry, enters the council chamber just as Fingolfin speaks. He feels that Fingolfin truly tries to take his place and threatens his half-brother with his sword. When Fingolfin leaves without a word, Fëanor stops him at the gate and puts the tip of his sword on Fingolfin's chest, threatening him again.

The Valar must now take action. So far, they thought that the discontent of the Noldor was entirely Fëanor's doing because he was the first to speak openly against them, but now they find out that Melkor is at the root of it. Nonetheless, Fëanor is to be punished for putting his blade on Fingolfin's chest: He has to spend twelve years in exile, but may return after that time if others speak for him. Fingolfin immediately promises to forgive his brother.

Fëanor's sons and his father Finwë accompany Fëanor into banishment to Formenos. Fingolfin becomes regent of the Noldor, so one of Melkor's lies seems to have come true. Meanwhile, Melkor has gone into hiding so Tulkas cannot find him and bring him to judgement. Melkor suddenly appears in Formenos and tries to win Fëanor's friendship, but as he mentions the Silmarils, Fëanor realises what Melkor truly wants. He shuts his door in Melkor's face.

Melkor now wants revenge, but as Finwë has sent messengers to inform the Valar about his visit, he first has to hide from Valinor to avoid being caught. For a little while, Valinor remains at peace.



Our Favourite Quotes

~ "Then [Fëanor] began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils."

~ "Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before."

~ "And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them."

~ "But he that sows lies shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead. […] Bitterly did the Noldor atone for the folly of their open ears in the days that followed after."

~ "Thus ere the Valar were aware, the peace of Valinor was poisoned."

~ "Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Fëanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Fëanor above all, and lusting ever for the Silmarils."

~ "'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as if he were King? Thou it was who long ago spoke before the Quendi, bidding them accept the summons of the Valar to Aman. Thou it was that led the Noldor upon the long road through the perils of Middle-earth to the light of Eldamar. If thou dost not now repent of it, two sons at least thou hast to honour thy words.'"

~ "'See, half-brother!' [Fëanor] said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.'"

~ "The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or to depart; and thou they might judge departure to be folly, they might not restrain them from it."

~ "'Thou speakest of thraldom. If thraldom it be, thou canst not escape it: for Manwë is King of Arda, and not of Aman only. And this deed was unlawful, whether in Aman or not in Aman. Therefore this doom is now made: for twelve years thou shals leave Tirion where this threat was uttered. In that time take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.'"

~ "Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor."

~ "Now Melkor, knowing that his devices had been revealed, hid himself and passed from place to place as a cloud in the hills; and Tulkas sought for him in vain."

~ "Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä."

~ "Then Melkor departed in shame, for he himself was in peril, and he saw not his time yet for revenge; but his heart was black with anger."

~ "But the Valar sought in vain for tidings of their enemy; and as a cloud far off that looms ever higher, borne upon a slow cold wind, a doubt now marred the joy of all the dwellers in Aman, dreading they knew not what evil that yet might come."



Earlier Versions

~ "The Quenta" and "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" imply that Fëanor created the Silmarils even before the Teleri left Tol Eressëa. It isn't made explicit, but in both versions, the creation of the Silmarilli is recounted before the building of the Telerin ships (4; 5). This order of events contradicts the earlier Book of Lost Tales account, in which Fëanor's creation of the Silmarils is narrated in great detail but well after the Teleri have moved to Alqualondë. (2) "The Earliest Annals of Valinor" again place the move from Tol Eressëa to Alqualondë (V.Y. 2200) well before the creation of the Silmarils ("a while" after V.Y. 2500). (6)

~ In the original draft, Tolkien offers a lot of detail on the creation of the Silmarils. Fëanor begs a great pearl and "an urn full of the most luminous phosphor-light gathered of foam in dark places" from the Teleri. Then he gathers the glint of all jewels by the light of white lamps and silver candles, the sheen of pearls and the glimmer of opals. All these are combined with phosphorescence and the dew of Telperion. A tiny drop of the light of Laurelin is added. Then Fëanor locks the resulting radiance in a body of "perfect glass". Having made one jewel in this manner, he creates two more before he runs out of material. (2) All these details are absent from subsequent versions. (4; 5) From the "Earliest Annals of Aman" onwards, the light of the Silmarils is taken purely from the Two Trees (6).

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", it is Fëanor who has cursed the Silmarils so that they will burn the hands of anybody who touches them unauthorised, whether God, Elf or Mortal. (4) In the Quenta, Manwë hallows them and Varda announces that they contain "the fate of the Elves […] and the fate of many things beside". Scorching "mortal flesh impure" is part of the natural properties of a Silmaril, not a result of the hallowing. (5) In the "Quenta Silmarillion" comes the "no mortal flesh, nor flesh unclean, could touch them." Previously, clean mortal hands could hold them. (9) It is only in the "Annals of Aman" that Varda's hallowing (rather than something Fëanor did) ensures that neither mortals nor the unclean could handle the Silmarils, and that Mandos announces that the fate of the world is contained in them. (10) It is also only fairly late that the Silmarils become unbreakable. (11)

~ An interesting source of inspiration for the Silmarils is offered in the essay on Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales: It is reported that the Eldar commonly said that the light of the Two Trees has been snared in Galadriel's tresses. Fëanor is enchanted by Galadriel's hair and asks her three times to give him a tress of it, but she refuses and will not even give him a single hair. Thus, Fëanor has to find his own way of capturing the blended light of the Trees. (7)

~ As Fëanor is not yet part of the royal family of the Noldor in the Book of Lost Tales, the unrest of the Noldor in this early version is purely based on Melkor's talk about their "thraldom". Melkor claims that if the Noldor asked the Valar for their full inheritance, i.e. for a return to Middle-earth under their own government, they would not receive it. This suffices to incite the Noldor to unrest. Upset, Finwë takes the counsel of Fëanor, Ingwë and Elwë to inform Manwë about Melkor's doing. Melkor tries to pre-empt them and tells the Valar that the Noldor plan a rebellion. When Finwë's messengers reach Manwë, they present their case less skillfully than they might. As a result, Melkor is sentenced to another term in Mandos, but all the Noldor are exiled from Kôr (Tirion). They move to a cavernous valley and feel rather angry with the Valar. (3)

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", Fëanor has become Finwë's son, and the strife between Finwë's sons becomes a pivotal part of the unrest of the Noldor. Oddly enough, even though Fëanor is named as Finwë's second-born at that time, he appears to rank before Fingolfin: Melkor lies that Fingolfin and his son Finnweg (Fingon) are plotting to usurp the leadership of the Noldor from Fëanor and his sons. A quarrel breaks out between the sons of the king, resulting in Fëanor's (sole) banishment. His father and many other Noldor accompany him; there is no mention of his sons. No weapons are involved. (4)

~ In the "Quenta Silmarillion," Fëanor is again called before the Valar and exiled due to speaking of rebellion against the Valar, not as the direct result of a quarrel between Fingolfin and him. His trial still has the result of laying bare the manipulations of Melkor, who flees Valinor. (9)

~ In the "Earliest" and "Later Annals of Valinor," Fëanor and his family are named the Dispossessed by the Valar as early as the feuds of the Noldor because Fëanor and all his household are deposed of the leadership of the Noldor as a result of Fëanor's rebellious words and strife with Fingolfin. (6, 8) In the "Earliest Annals of Valinor", there is no more mention of Fëanor's banishment. (6) In the "Later Annals of Valinor", Fëanor and Finwë depart from Tûn (Tirion) and dwell in the north of Valinor, but it does not appear to be a formal exile. (8)

~ The "Quenta" introduces Melkor's whisperings about the coming of Men and the Valar's purported hope to be better able to control their minds. Even the comment that the Valar ever "little prevailed to sway the wills or fates of Men" is already there – with a little addendum that did not make it to the final Silmarillion: "least of all to good". (5)

~ The first appearance of Fëanor threatening Fingolfin comes in "The Annals of Aman," where it is said that "swords were drawn in Eldamar." However, it is not said who draws swords (though the trial implies that it was Fëanor). This is the first time Formenos is mentioned by name, as well as the first detailed appearance of Melkor coming to Fëanor in Formenos. (10)

~ It is in the later Quenta Silmarillion that more details of Fëanor's attack on Fingolfin are written and that he is banished specifically for that. (11) The most detailed account—and the one most similar to the published text—is from the second phase of the "Later Quenta SilmarillionT. This is where the argument between Fëanor and Fingolfin is made explicit. (12)

~ There is one major difference between that text and the final version: In the second phase of the "Later Quenta Silmarillion", the Noldor possessed weapons in Middle-earth, although they had not made these weapons themselves (they were gifts from Aulë). These weapons had been stored away and were unused in Valinor, but were taken out and sharpened again when the Unrest of the Noldor began. (12) In earlier drafts, weapons were altogether alien to the Elves before Melkor's whisperings (10, 11), just as they are according to the published Silmarillion.



Food for Thought

~ "Small truth there was in this..." But small truth isn't none at all. Do you think that Melkor's whisperings may have had a true core?

~ The earlier drafts of The Silmarillion suggest that neither Finwë's remarriage or his sons' fraternal tensions were strictly necessary to cause the Unrest and Flight of the Noldor. Do you find them as effective as the final version?

~ Do you think Fingolfin is honestly as noble and generous as his words before Finwë's council and his immediate readiness to forgive Fëanor suggest, or do you think this shows a clever political mind at work?

~ If swords, axes, and spears were new to the Eldar, what weapons and tools did they use in Cuiviénen and on the Journey? Or do you prefer that they already knew of weapons but had stored them for lack of use, as in Phase 2 of the Later Quenta Silmarillion 's "Unrest of the Noldor" (12)? In that case, do you find it plausible that the Eldar only knew weapons as gifts from Aulë and never themselves made any, even in the wilds of Middle-earth?

~ Do you think that the Valar overstepped their authority when bringing Fëanor to trial - should they have let Finwë handle a Noldo-on-Noldo matter? Conversely, may the Valar have done it to prevent a conflict-of-interest situation where Finwë was known to favor Fëanor or to prevent a fraught political situation due to Fingolfin's relation to Ingwë, the Eldarin High King?

~ Do you think the Noldor would have left Valinor to travel to Middle-earth even without Fëanor's rebellion?




Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 7. Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "V. The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "VI. The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The earliest 'Silmarillion'".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta", 3 and 4.

(6)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor", VY 2900 and 2950

(7) Unfinished Tales. "IV. The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth King of Lórien."

(8) The Lost Road, "The Latter Annals of Valinor," §VY 2900

(9) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor, §46, 50-55.

(10) Morgoth's Ring, "The Annals of Aman," §94, 98-104

(11) Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," The First Phase, "Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor." §49b, 52-53.

(12) Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," The Second Phase, "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor." §52b, 52d-52g


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of the Darkening of Valinor” is due April 6.

Comments

[hhimring]

Just a thought, because I haven't caught up with this yet:
There never seems to be any talk of taking the dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin before Ingwe, does there? Even though he is the High King and, failing Finwe himself, would seem to be the logical candidate. I suppose he could be argued to be prejudiced in this case--but so can the Valar, obviously. Although perhaps the idea that they themselves might appear or even be prejudiced just doesn't occur to them?
(Within the earlier history of the text, I suppose this would not be considered, because the original trial actually deals with the rebellion and not the attack on Fingolfin.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Although perhaps the idea that they themselves might appear or even be prejudiced just doesn't occur to them?

I'm sure it wouldn't. And of course one might argue that at least they aren't personally related to the involved parties!

I'm once again realising my own bias, though: I never even realised that of course Ingwë as High King of the Eldar would have been a logical choice of judge in this case. On the other hand, Fëanor did break the peace of Aman, so it's also fair enough to take the case before the King of Aman (+ Arda) rather than "just" the boss of the Eldarin franchise... ;)

[hhimring]

Also, during my first reading I took Fingolfin completely at face value, as a noble and loyal son.
I still think he is probably quite sincere (possibly barring a little bit of self-deception)--but it has since struck me what a massive tactical error his speech before the council is, really, given what his aims appear to be. So I actually see him failing as a politician in that scene. (Feanor, of course, fails in more ways here than just as a politician.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Same here - the first time around, I took Fingolfin at face value. The second time, I'd come to adore Maedhros, and so I was prejudiced towards his branch of the family - and suddenly Fingolfin's actions looked quite sinister. Either a tactical error (in that it could only make things worse), or a spectacular tactical success if the purpose was making Fëanor discredit himself. I mean, even if one plays the Manwë card for Fingolfin ("cannot comprehend volatile tempers" - which I think is unlikely, considering Fingolfin's single challenge against Morgoth later on), he could have been smarter. Unless he wanted to light Fëanor's fuse!

(Not trying to make excuses for Fëanor. He does behave like an asshole in this episode. I just can't help feeling that Fingolfin was sort of counting on that!)

[hhimring]

Hmm.
Not only does he light Feanor's fuse very thoroughly--he makes his father look incompetent in public, at the same time as ostensibly proclaiming his loyalty to him, and he implies, again in public, that everyone who dislikes Feanor but would like to leave Valinor anyway (and that seems to include a lot of people, including his own eldest son) is disloyal to the king.
I think it is more likely that it was his own volatile temper that got the better of him there...

(I know that a lot of people think Finwe deserved to be made to look incompetent, because he was. Maybe. But can we be quite so sure of that?)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

But can we be quite so sure of that?

We can't be sure of anything! :D

Should Melkor have been right (and who knows, maybe he looked into the abyss of Fingolfin's secret ambition or something! ;)), then what Fingolfin did was very clever: Not only did he make his half-brother discredit himself, he also makes his father discredit himself. I guess he couldn't rely on the outcome (both people who take precedence before him go into exile), but he could make sure that a lot of people would look to him for level-headed, competent advice - at least those who are happy in Valinor. The exile situation (+ "I will release my brother!") was just an additional bonus...
if Melkor was on to something.

Of course, it also might just have been plain stupid Finwëan temper, with no sinister motives involved. It all depends on whether one believes that Fingolfin would be playing the Game of Thrones, or not... ;)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think Fingolfin was an honest hothead. Anyone who thinks that going out and challenging Morgoth to single combat is a good idea is not the devious sort. Though brave, undoubtedly.

[hhimring]

Yes, but he is not always hot-headed. He is quite cautious in Beleriand, at first. I think maybe he is someone who takes quite a while before losing his temper, but when he does, he loses it very thoroughly.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, that sounds very plausible. After all he did try to get along with Feanor, and I think that if Feanor had been even half-way nice, Fingolfin would have been perfectly happy to look up to his genius elder brother.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

The point about the Elves probably having SOME weapon-like objects back in Middle-earth, and on the journey, is such a good one that I cannot accept the "weaponless" version. I mean, they had "need of wood", they hunted, and there were plenty of creatures around to protect themselves from... The Elves are not idiots. (This is also why I do not like the "gifts of Aule" explanation.)

I guess the idea that *swords* were new could work for me.

Oh, and the Valar clearly mishandled this situation, but I cannot decide what they SHOULD have done. It does show that they are not perfect, though.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the Noldor didn't know swords, or that they never even dreamed about using sharp tools for the purpose of hurting people. But I can't believe they never used axes or spears before Aulë made them any! (The way things are worded in "Morgoth's Ring", it sounds like the Noldor didn't even use their own bows in Valinor. Um?! What about their hunting trips?)

I wouldn't really know what they could have done better at that point, either. I guess a closer watch on Melkor would have been useful, but I'm not sure it could've prevented anything in the long run!

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

~ If swords, axes, and spears were new to the Eldar, what weapons and tools did they use in Cuiviénen and on the Journey? Or do you prefer that they already knew of weapons but had stored them for lack of use, as in Phase 2 of the Later Quenta Silmarillion 's "Unrest of the Noldor" (12)? In that case, do you find it plausible that the Eldar only knew weapons as gifts from Aulë and never themselves made any, even in the wilds of Middle-earth?

I took this to mean that smithing weapons was new to them. Smithing would have been a hard craft to develop for a people mostly on the move. Also, Aule is all about crafting, but he seems most closely identified with smithing. So maybe had crude weapons, but metal ones were new.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Interesting idea! So they could have flint and stone axes, spears etc., but metal is a new one? Yeah, that way it could make sense!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, if you look at real specimens, they were pretty fit-for-purpose. Stone arrowheads would definitely be effective hunting tools.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*nods* I like this interpretation.

Now there's a new question, though: If even the Noldor wouldn't have thought of using their hunting tools as weapons against people without having listened to Melkor... how did the Teleri figure it out so quickly? *dun dun dun*

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

1 On the weapons point: it seemed to me obvious that the Elves had some on the March, though these would probably have been multi-purposed hunting or working tools, like bows, axes, machetes or spears, rather than 'weapons' in the sense of 'things used against people'. They needn't have been of metal to start with, stone-tool technology was well-established and sophisticated.

2 The Valar definitely made a mistake in exiling Feanor directly, without going through either Finwe or, if necessary, Ingwe. That was a breach of protocol, lese majeste towards Finwe and tactically a bad idea because it left Fingolfin in charge. In fairness, presumably they were not really au fait with the concept of politics (or mental illness, in Feanor's case). Several things they could have done instead (1) left it to Finwe to sort out; (2) Suggested to him quietly to consult Ingwe and Olwe openly, so that his ultimate decision wouldn't have been seen as completely biased; (3) Drafted one of Finwe's daughters as Regent, instead of Fingolfin, as a compromise and obviously (since they were known not to be interested in the throne) temporary administrative expedient.

3 I wonder what the Noldor who remained in Aman did with Feanor's lab notes? There must have been a lot, not just from the Silmaril project. Even the notes of incomplete or aborted projects would have been interesting.

4 Beren didn't seem to have any problems picking up a Silmaril, once he had cut it out of Morgoth's crown, so presumably the Silmarils themselves could waive the "no mortal flesh" requirement. It would have been a bit ungrateful to burn your own rescuer, after all. And I firmly believe that the Arkenstone was Maedhros' Silmaril, and the Dwarves didn't report any issues either (they were honest materialists; their greed was pure, and based entirely on devotion to shiny things, rather than on desire for their own self-aggrandisement).

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

1 That's the way I try to interpret it, too. Weapons in the sense of "tools to hurt/kill people" are new; the tools themselves, however, are already known. (In whatever form.)

2 A joint judgement made by Finwë and Ingwë (one known to be biased towards Fëanor, and one probably biased towards Fingolfin) and possibly Olwë (mostly neutral?) would probably have been a good idea. I guess Manwë as King Of All Arda only saw his own right here, not that of the "lesser" kings.
Not sure whether Fëanor would have been any less annoyed by one of his half-sisters in charge - they're Indis' children as well, after all! And taking into account the "Dispossessed" aspect, "temporary" may not actually have been intended...
But at least it would've given the lie to Melkor's "Fingolfin will replace you!" scam!

3 Interesting question! I expect he'd have used code or even invented a whole new alphabet, but given enough time, someone would probably have been able to decipher them. I think I recall reading a fanfic in which someone (in a later age) did find Fëanor's journal and read his ideas about nuclear fission, but I can't for the life of me remember where I read that fic, what it was called or who wrote it. :(

4 Beren is Mr. Perfect anyway. ;) I'm so glad I'm not the only one who sticks to that theory concerning the Arkenstone, though! I know there are a lot of arguments against it (the main one being, IIRC, "Tolkien said it wasn't" but also some in-universe ones), but I nonetheless like the idea waaaay too much!
they were honest materialists; their greed was pure, and based entirely on devotion to shiny things, rather than on desire for their own self-aggrandisement)
That's a great explanation! Of course, they'd also be smart and skilled enough to use protective gloves, if the first Dwarf who handled the Arkenstone got his fingers burned... ;)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I suspect that the Valar were just trying to deal with the Feanor-Fingolfin problem as fairly and efficiently as possible, and not considering the psychology of the whole thing. Like throwing a bucket of water on the two warring cats and then locking one of them up in the house.


I think I recall reading a fanfic in which someone (in a later age) did find Fëanor's journal and read his ideas about nuclear fission, but I can't for the life of me remember where I read that fic, what it was called or who wrote it. :(

That might have been one of mine. "Brighter Than Ten Thousand Suns". It was in the MEFAs, I think.


smart and skilled enough to use protective gloves

Yes, I can see the Dwarves with waldos and haz-mat suits, or at least a pair of long tongs and a face-shield....

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Like throwing a bucket of water on the two warring cats and then locking one of them up in the house.

MENTAL IMAGES! XD

Oh wow, so I sort of just recommended your own fanfic to you. Good job? XD

Yes, I can see the Dwarves with waldos and haz-mat suits, or at least a pair of long tongs and a face-shield....

Right? I mean, surely they know how to handle dangerous substances. Or if they didn't know at some point, they can learn...

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

Do you think the Noldor would have left Valinor to travel to Middle-earth even without Fëanor's rebellion?
YES!!! I don't think the Noldor would have stayed in Valinor forever, making pretty gems and grand architecture. Feanor *was* the uber-Noldor but he was not alone and -given some more time- I'm sure the idea would have come up. Of course done more orderly: no need for dramatic Oaths, ship thefts, kinslaying and all the rest but a people whose skills are concerned with "research and development" need things to research and space to develop. Once all of Aman was explored, given a couple of milennia, why not take the leap and return to Middle-earth?

do you find it plausible that the Eldar only knew weapons as gifts from Aulë and never themselves made any, even in the wilds of Middle-earth?
No, of course not. It makes no sense to think that they survived the trek across to the sea without some kind of weapon. And stone tools can be quite effective. Now, defensive tools is one story, threatening your brother with a steel sword is another.

I find this interesting:
Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another
As if before, the Noldor were like one big happy family, no big differences, sharing everything and now this marks the end of this "primitive communism" stage to a society with greater differences and consequently conflicts (I'm afraid I've let Marx take over Valinor)

'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä."
Feanot at his very best!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Of course done more orderly: no need for dramatic Oaths, ship thefts, kinslaying and all the rest but a people whose skills are concerned with "research and development" need things to research and space to develop. Once all of Aman was explored, given a couple of milennia, why not take the leap and return to Middle-earth?

I agree. It might have taken longer (although perhaps the Darkening would have triggered an exodus either way), and it might have been done in a less messy manner, but it would've happened sooner or later!

As if before, the Noldor were like one big happy family, no big differences, sharing everything and now this marks the end of this "primitive communism" stage to a society with greater differences and consequently conflicts (I'm afraid I've let Marx take over Valinor)

Ooooh, good point! Of course, now I can't help but wonder about the economic consequences of the Unrest... ooooh.

I also agree with your assessment of the weaponry questions. The big leap was probably one from "tool" to "weapon", and from "injuring/killing animals" to "injuring/killing people", but the tools themselves must already have been known - and not just to the Noldor, and not just thanks to Aulë!

Feanor at his very best!
Yes! :D

[hhimring]

You know, it suddenly struck me out of the blue, all over again, that Melkor is the one who created the orcs. And this is the guy who is allowed to stroll around Valinor without supervision...
And elves were ready to listen to him, knowing this?
I tend not to think about this much, because my favourite characters did not listen to Melkor themselves and weren't aware where the rumours were coming from.
But...!

[independence1776]

…That is a very good point. You'd think the Elves who lived in Cuiviénen would be more wary of him. (Maybe they were! Maybe no one born in Valinor listened to them. And that might be another reason the Vanyar didn't have anything to do with him; they listened to their elders.)

[hhimring]

Yes. I have wondered on occasion whether that particular subject might perhaps have been taboo--in different ways--among the elves of Valinor and Endore. If so, the younger, more curious Noldor might not have understood what they were being warned against, because the warning wasn't explicit enough.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The question is, how often did the Eldar actually encounter the Orcs, and did they link them to Melkor at this point? What we know is that Elves at Cuiviénen got snatched away by The Hunter (TM). But is it ever actually said that they met any Orcs at that point, and whether those could easily be differentiated from other "dangers of the wild" such as bears or wolves? IIRC, we aren't told. And if the Eldar who later return to Middle-earth have theories that Orcs are just Avari gone feral... they don't seem to have known any previous "Melkor" theories, right?
The Valar, of course, might/should have known. But the Eldar may very well not have a clue. So yeah, they were ready to listen to him...

[hhimring]

You're right, it seems as if at least any Melkor theories were not general knowledge, going by that.
I don't see how the Valar could not have known, but we are told explicitly that Melkor is exploiting gaps in Valarin information policy in other ways...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Or maybe they just thought "Well he won't be doing it under our noses, we'd notice"...