"Of the Noldor in Beleriand" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!


Banner by oloriel


Summary

Even though the Noldor in Middle-earth are living through a brief period of peace, all is not well in Beleriand. After Turgon has found a suitable place for his secret city he initially returns to Nevrast; but after the Dagor Aglareb he decides to act on his dream and summons the most skilled craftsmen of his people to begin building a great city. Turgon remains in Nevrast until, after 52 years, his city is finished. Then by and by Turgon and his people move to the newly-built city of Gondolin, leaving Nevrast empty. Because of the counsel of Ulmo, Turgon leaves a hauberk, helm and sword in his old halls in Vinyamar so that in later days, Turgon may recognise a messenger from Ulmo.

During the time of the building of Gondolin, Galadriel in Doriath is questioned by Melian about the unspoken woe that she perceives about Galadriel and her kin. Galadriel tells Melian about the quest for the Silmarils but mentions neither Oath nor Kinslaying. Thingol realises that the Noldor did not after all come to aid the Sindar against Morgoth, and certainly not as emissaries from the Valar. Nonetheless, Thingol assumes that the sons of Fëanor will be useful because they hate Morgoth. Melian warns him about the ambiguity of the Fëanorians' support.

But Thingol does not come to rely on the Fëanorians anyway, because stories about the deeds of the Noldor begin to spread until they reach Círdan, who informs Thingol of what he's heard. At that time, the sons of Finarfin are guests in Doriath, so Thingol confronts them. Finrod does not want to defend himself by blaming his cousins, but Angrod is angry about the way he has previously been treated by Caranthir and tells the whole story.

Thingol is furious, and sends the children of Finarfin away although he will not banish them, since they are his kin. He bans the use of Quenya in his realm, forbidding any Sindar who have taken him as their lord to speak or listen to Quenya and judging that any Noldo who still uses Quenya is unrepentant of the Kinslaying. As a result, only the lords of the Noldor continue to use Quenya in private, but Sindarin becomes the only every-day language among all the Elves in Beleriand.

Meanwhile, the building of Nargothrond is also completed. At a feast, Galadriel asks Finrod why he has no wife, and Finrod gives a portentous answer, that he will swear an oath and must be free to fulfill it. This will prove true, but there is another reason: The woman he loves still lives in Valinor.



Our Favourite Quotes
~ "High and white were its walls, and smooth its stairs, and tall and strong was the Tower of the King. There shining fountains played, and in the courts of Turgon stood images of the Trees of old, which Turgon himself had wrought with elven-craft […]."

~ “Thus Turgon lived long in bliss; but Nevrast was desolate, and remained empty of living folk until the ruin of Beleriand.”

~ “'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe yet to come, though still hope may seem bright.'”

~ “For what cause, Galadriel, were the high people of the Noldor driven forth as exiles from Aman? Or what evil lies on the sons of Fëanor that they are so haughty and so fell? Do I not strike near the truth?”

~ “’Near,’ said Galadriel; ‘save that we were not driven forth, but came of our own will, and against that of the Valar. And through great peril and in despite of the Valar for this purpose we came: to take vengeance upon Morgoth, and regain what he stole.’”

~ “Beware of the sons of Fëanor! The shadow of the wrath of the Valar lies upon them; and they have done evil, I perceive, both in Aman and to their own kin. A grief but lulled to sleep lies between the princes of the Noldor.”

~ “’Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges,’ said Melian; and afterwards they spoke no more of this matter.”

~ "And Círdan, hearing these dark tales, was troubled; for he was wise, and he perceived swiftly that true or alse they were put about at this time through malöice, though the malice he deemed was that of the princes of the Noldor, because of the jealousy of their houses."

~ "But Finrod answered: 'What ill have I done you, lord? Or what evil deed have the Noldor done in all your realm to grieve you? Neither against your kingship nor against any of your people have they thought evil or done evil.'

~ "'For this we are named tale-bearer to you and treasonable to the Noldor: untrily as you know, for we have of our loyalty been silent before you, and thus earned your anger. But now these charges are no longer to be borne, and the truth you shall know.'"

~ “'Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the name of kinslayers and traitors?'”

~ “'Never again in my ears shall be heard the tongue of those who slew my kin in Alqualondë! Nor in all my realm shall it be openly spoken, while my power endures. All the Sindar shall hear my command that they shall neither speak with the tongue of the Noldor nor answer to it. And all such as use it shall be held slayers of kin and betrayers of kin unrepentant.'”

~ “And it came to pass even as Thingol had spoken; for the Sindar heard his word, and thereafter throughout Beleriand they refused the tongue of the Noldor, and shunned those that spoke it aloud; but the Exiles took the Sindarin tongue in all their daily uses, and the High Speech of the West was spoken only by the lords of the Noldor among themselves. Yet that speech lived ever as a language of lore, wherever any of that people dwelt.”

~ “'An oath too I shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'”

~ “But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amairë of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.”



Earlier Versions

Gondolin

~ Although Gondolin features prominently in The Book of Lost Tales, the backstory of its building does not appear in any of the early drafts. The only material that pertains to this chapter is a mention of the two Trees. At this point, they are genuine shoots of Laurelin and Telperion, named Glingol and Bansil, rather than sculptures made by Turgon. (1)

~ The notion of Turgon's (and Finrod's) unease and subsequent secret building endeavours first appears in "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand". Annal 50 records that Turgon alone "discovers the hidden vale of Gondolin", and "gathers folk about him" to depart Hithlum. (2)

~ The “Later Annals of Beleriand” state that Turgon became increasingly uneasy and departed with a third of Fingolfin’s people and that no one knew where they had gone. It also states that the building of Gondolin was completed after their arrival. (3) Likewise, the “Quenta Silmarillion” only mentions that Turgon gathered his people secretly and built the city after they’d arrived. It is the first mention of Gondolin likeness to the city of the Elves in Valinor. (4)

~ In “The Grey Annals,” the building of Gondolin starts before the arrival of its people. (5, §89) Ulmo’s prophecy, warning, and advice about a set of armor is entirely new, as is the conception that Sindar also dwell in Gondolin. An early draft of §95 put what became Angrod’s outburst into Galadriel’s mouth. (5, Note on §95) It’s also stated in a rider that Ulmo protected Turgon’s people on their journey. (5)

~ Tolkien inserts a chapter in the “Later Quenta Silmarillion.” It is largely a repeat of information found elsewhere, though a more explicit description of Turgon’s finding and also of the city itself appear. The latter is the only description of Gondolin that appears in any drafts after the first “Quenta” in Shaping. (6)

Ban on Quenya

~ In neither the “Later Annals of Beleriand” nor the “Quenta Silmarillion” is there any reference to Thingol’s learning about the Kinslaying or his ban on Quenya. However, “The Lhammas” says outright that Quenya changed in form in Beleriand thanks to meeting other languages and split into several dialects, of which only the slave-Noldorin and the form in Gondolin survived after the War of Wrath. Furthermore, it became the speech of all of the surviving Elves of Beleriand after Doriath’s and Gondolin’s falls. The ban does not exist. (7)

~ In the first draft of “The Grey Annals” in the "Excursus on the languages of Beleriand," there is still no conception of the ban on Quenya, but Sindarin only is used in Thingol’s realm. The Noldor learned it to converse with the Sindar. (8) In the second draft, Tolkien states that Quenya and Sindarin were fairly understandable between each other, and that after the Rising of the Sun, both languages changed rapidly, Noldorin the more due to the rebellion. (In Gondolin, it changed the least due to a lack of contact with Sindarin, because in this version there are no Sindar there.) The Noldor held that the new form of their language was ‘debased’ and continued teaching proper Quenya. However, the ban on Quenya has appeared: Thingol forbids his people to speak it due to the Kinslaying. (9) The third draft rejected the whole of the second, and states that the Noldor took Sindarin as their main tongue, leaving Quenya for lore, for multiple reasons. One, the Sindar outnumbered them and their peoples mingled save in Doriath. The second was the ban on Quenya due to the Kinslaying. Daily speech in Beleriand was in Sindarin. This draft ends with the note that the in-universe document was written after the War of Wrath but before the return to Tol Eressëa, and in the changed—but not considered debased-- form of the Noldorin language. (10)

~ In “The Grey Annals” proper, the full conception of the ban appears. However, the information about Gondolin and Thingol’s discovery of the Kinslaying happen in reverse order. The information about Finrod and Amarië is new. (11, 12) In a marginal note to the chapter proper in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion,” it’s stated that Turgon and his family spoke Quenya, but the people of Gondolin spoke Sindarin. (6) However, in “Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin,” the passage where Tuor and Voronwë attempt to find the Hidden Gate implies that Quenya is spoken by more people. (13)

~ In a letter dated from 1972 (well after the composition of "The Grey Annals"), Tolkien made no mention of a ban on Quenya when explaining to Richard Jeffery that the "'High-Elves' or exiled Noldor" had immediately adopted Sindarin. It is unclear whether he forgot about Thingol's ban in his old age, or whether he was no longer satisfied with the idea. (14)



Food for Thought
~ How do you think the people Turgon and his followers left behind felt when they realized no one was in Nevrast? Could they have blamed a secret weapon or new tactic of Morgoth or did they think they were cowards for sneaking away or something else entirely?

~ Do you think Turgon kept up communications with his kin outside Gondolin on any sort of regular basis? Do you think that Fingolfin and Turgon's brothers knew the location of Gondolin, if not the exact road?

~ Why do you think Thingol decided that banning Quenya was the best (and/or easiest) way to punish the Noldor for the Kinslaying?

~ In a previous chapter, it has been stated that the Noldor predominantly spoke Sindarin even before Thingol's ban. Do you think this blunts the edge of Thingol's judgement?

~ Do you think that some Noldor may have continued to use Quenya – or even returned to using Quenya after using predominantly Sindarin - to show that they did not consider themselves bound by Thingol's rules? Do you think that all Noldor who continued to use Quenya genuinely were "slayers of kin... unrepentant"?

~ How do you interpret the ban on Quenya? Do you think that the Sindar would pretend they didn't hear what the Noldor said if the latter spoke in Quenya or that the Sindar shunned those who used Quenya even in private or do you believe something else entirely?

~ How do you think the ban on Quenya affected Noldorin culture?

~ The text specifically mentions the Sindar “throughout Beleriand” honoring the ban. Could this mean that the Sindar in Hithlum (and later in Gondolin) ignored it?



Works Cited

(1)The Book of Lost Tales 2. "III. The Fall of Gondolin."

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VII. The Earliest Annals of Beleriand." Years 50 (2).
(3) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, Annals 52 and 102
(4) The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion, “Of Beleriand and its Realms,” §116
(5) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §89 and 110-113.
(6) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, “Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin”
(7) The Lost Road, The Lhammas, 8
(8) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, Excursus on the languages of Beleriand, Grey Annals 1
(9) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, Excursus on the languages of Beleriand, Grey Annals 2
(10) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, Excursus on the languages of Beleriand, Grey Annals 2, revised
(11) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §88-109
(12) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin, Commentary
(13) Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin, Note 26
(14) Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien (eds.). The Letters of JRR Tolkien. Letter 347, Item 3.




Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of Maeglin” is due on July 27.

Comments

[hhimring]

(LJ ate my comment... Trying again:)

I think Thingol's ban worked as well as it did, because things were going that way anyway. But I don't think that would blunt the edge for the Noldor. It would make all the difference whether they were willingly using Quenya less and less in public or whether they were suddenly forced to drop it entirely. Some might not realize at first how much they cared--others might react right away.

The implication seems to be that Thingol thought the ban would hurt the sons of Feanor more than the others or serve to drive a wedge between them and the others. It seems a doubtful calculation to me.

Fingon actually uses Quenya in public at the start of the Nirnaeth--but I don't really think that means that the ban had no effect in Hithlum.

[independence1776]

It would make all the difference whether they were willingly using Quenya less and less in public or whether they were suddenly forced to drop it entirely. Some might not realize at first how much they cared--others might react right away.

True enough. Begun willingly or not, being unable to use your birth tongue wouldn't be easy.

The implication seems to be that Thingol thought the ban would hurt the sons of Feanor more than the others or serve to drive a wedge between them and the others. It seems a doubtful calculation to me.

Maybe he'd heard of Fëanor's shibboleth and decided it may very well be effective. If the Fëanorians were that touchy about a generally accepted language change, how would they react to banning it? (Though from a political standpoint, it wasn't the smartest move-- but Thingol wasn't interested in dealing with them anyway.)

Fingon actually uses Quenya in public at the start of the Nirnaeth

The interesting thing about that is the passage may have been written before Tolkien thought up the ban. (I don't know if it was or not; I didn't find anything in a quick glance through HoME.) But it doesn't really matter, though, given it's in the published Silm.

[hhimring]

I think once Tolkien had come up with those Quenya phrases, he would find it hard to resist the appeal of the sound of them and if he noticed the contradiction would invent some kind of explanation to fit them in. That seems to be the way his brain often worked?

[independence1776]

Absolutely! I would love to have seen the explanation, too. (I was actually shocked that the ban wasn't invented earlier. And from an out-universe perspective, maybe it was a punishment Tolkien himself would have found hard to bear, given how much he loved languages. But that's just my speculation.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Forbidding people to speak their own language is historically one of the paths to cultural genocide, and a common practice by majorities against minorities whom they wish to eliminate by assimilation rather than actual slaughter. So what Thingol was doing was a lot less mild than it looks.

I would assume that since Thingol didn't have actual power (as opposed to massive cultural influence) outside Doriath, the Noldor continued to speak Quenya among themselves, and used Sindarin with anyone else and in public, so as not to unnecessarily alienate their Sindar followers.

[independence1776]

That's pretty much what I think, too. It sounds more harmless than it really is.

My thoughts on how much Quenya was spoken and by whom change on a day-to-day basis, though I generally assume the Fëanorians were less willing to stop speaking it.

[hhimring]

We do know (I think we do?) that by the Third Age Quenya was not a living language anymore in Middle-earth. This would mean that at some point people stopped speaking it at home and children were taught it as a written language from books.
Of course, a lot of the Noldor had died or had left by then. Also, with elves it would work out differently than with mortals, because native speakers like Galadriel were nevertheless still around, just fewer and fewer of them.

[independence1776]

I think it's in the Appendices that it's not a living language. I could see a few-- a very, very few-- children being taught it natively in the Third Age. But, as you said, most of the Noldor are gone. It's almost a moot point then. (And Galadriel's married to Celeborn, which brings in the ban and if he'd like her (or Celebrían) speaking it and the maritial strife that would cause if she wanted to.)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think this point is an excellent and important one. I believe that the Noldor preserved their language. Because of the enormous influence of the Noldor it naturally evolved into the Elf-Latin type of language Tolkien refers to later. The Noldor use it amongst themselves and use Sindarin with native Sindarin speakers (the majority), but Quenya does not just disappear. Not so easy to wipe out the cultural heritage of the Noldor as it might have been with an impoverished and disenfranchised minority peoples in our real world (who, in fact, have often been remarkably resilient, despite not having the power and wealth of the Noldor).

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Based on HoME, the Feanorians were among the first to pick up Sindarin, which they spoke with a specific Northern (Mithrim) accent, which was thus rather unpopular in Doriath. I think they would have spoken it to their Sindar followers as a matter of efficiency, once they realised that the Sindar weren't very good at Quenya. They weren't thinking of themselves as colonialists, there to stay and make converts to their culture, so there would have been no reason to make the Sindar speak Quenya for any reason other than convenience. And if for them learning Sindar and speaking it was more convenient, then why not?

[independence1776]

Well, I didn't say that the Fëanorians rejected using Sindarin. I just think that they wouldn't follow the ban (and some might have openly flaunted it). There's a difference between speaking a language out of convenience and gradually moving away from their native language and being told they couldn't speak Quenya at all.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Again, I agree with your thinking on this.

Slightly OOT with Quenya

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

If someone dug up a text from an undiscovered or uncatalogued box of Tolkien's notes and tried to eliminate Fingon's call to battle at the N.A. based upon those, I would still have to stick with this version:

"Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: 'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!' And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 'Auta i lómë! The night is passing!'"

Despite the ban, and that Sindarin was the majority tongue, it seems to me people who were close geographically or economically to the Noldor must have understood at least some basic Quenya. (As they would say on Tumblr that's my head canon.)

Some things are just too beautiful for me to want to argue about. This is why we do fanfiction, so we can pick the parts we love the most and enhance and develop those. He truly does belong to history now and his work continues beyond what he left to us and keeps growing. Which is always the fate of great stories to be adapted by future readers and storytellers.

Even Aragorn uses Quenya at his coronation (I like the way they did that in the film--sounded very liturgical and traditional). I can imagine wee Faramir loving his Quenya classes and Boromir studying it with less enthusiasm, but learning it. Of course, the Dúnedain of the North would have passed it along; one would not have had to have been raised in Rivendell to learn it the way school children learned Latin in Western Europe and the US for centuries.

Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

There is not a lot about Finrod in this section, but what exists is important to understanding him.

He refuses to betray the Feanorians even in his own defense. He chooses the Feanorians in particular and the Noldor as whole over loyalty to his kinsman Thingol. It's easily understandable to me. He is first and foremost one of the great princes of the Noldor, but this stands against the fanon of a mild-mannered sort of non-partisan, pacific Finrod, with only a token loyalty to his Feanorians cousins--this just isn't true--he goes off hunting with Maedhros and Maglor and he takes in Celegorm and Curufin and all of their people later. He does not distance himself like Turgon does.

Also, I like the part where he seems to shows a preternatural gift of foresight--knowing that he will swear an oath of his own and that there ain't no lasting good coming to him existing as he does under the curse of Mandos, which leads me to one of my favorite citations from this chapter:

It came to pass that Nargothrond was full-wrought (and yet Turgon still dwelt in the halls of Vinyamar), and the sons of Finarfin were gathered there to a feast; and Galadriel came from Doriath and dwelt a while in Nargothrond. Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: ‘An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.’

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

I agree! For me Finrod may fair-haired and friendly but basically a Noldorin prince with Noldorin skills and interests (builing and carving, for example)and mostly Noldorin followers who sticks to the family.

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Glad someone agrees!

I think it is less extreme than when I first came around the fandom several years ago, but there was a tendency in the past to whitewash Finrod and make him saintly and not a true Noldo. Poor St. Finrod, surrounded by crazy cousins and siblings, without an ounce of personal ambition, and only the selfless desire to do good.

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[hhimring]

I guess Finrod does have his saintly moments, but he certainly doesn't have them all the time. It's unlikely to be an accident that he ends up with so much power in Beleriand or entirely due to his communication skills. And Nargothrond may be originally modelled on Menegroth and excavated with dwarven help, but somehow comes out sounding quite Noldorin, at least to me.
It can be difficult to fathom Finrod's policies, occasionally. But the explanation that he wasn't truly Noldorin doesn't seem to resolve those difficulties. (In terms of the history of the Legendarium, it looks to me as if there are some strands of material that may not have been fully integrated.)

[Sorry, LJ is being weird, so my comment seems to have been posted to multiple times]

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

He chooses the Feanorians in particular and the Noldor as whole over loyalty to his kinsman Thingol.

I read the Doriath sequence very differently! Sure, Finrod isn't willing to betray his family, but for me the key is that, once Thingol knows about the Kinslaying, Finrod isn't willing to excuse it, or defend himself. I don't think that's so much about picking a side as it is about his own sense of ethics, and personal responsibility. (Flashing forward to Beren and Luthien, he still has no defense for the Kinslaying when Sauron brings it up, either.)

Whereas Angrod, who is less of a philosopher, has no problem telling the angry truth and letting the chips fall where they may. That seems pretty Noldorin to me!

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I do not actually know how differently we see Finrod. Or Angrod. I think there might be an unrevealed backstory behind Angod and Caranthir also. That would be pure speculation with nothing to hang it on. Not that that stops would-be-Tolkien scholars!

I have to admit that I have held the position I stated in the part you pulled out for some time, dating back at least since I wrote my Finrod biography and was struck at one point after another by how Noldorin Finrod is given the fact that he is genetically only one-quarter Noldor--and is raised with a bit more cultural diversity than say Fingon.

I part of the problem is my language. I tend to chose a more popular and personal style and less scholarly or dry language when writing the bio essays. I enjoy more reading other peoples' articles about Tolkien's works, which are so often rife with personal opinion, when a writer presents their view of the stories and characters with all their flags flying, instead of trying being sly and attempting to hide opinion behind more objective-sounding language. The statement you point to is provocative in tone.

His downfall before Sauron is that Sauron knows his weakness and attacks it directly. It's painful. He makes Finrod look at the bare facts and Finrod has no defense.

Then in the doom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.

I believe the way I read this, is that Finrod made his choice to continue on to Middle-earth with his people with full knowledge of Alqualonde and then kept it a secret from his Telerin kinsman in Doriath

It's actually Morgoth who spills the beans and circulates rumors which Cirdan feels he must report to Thingol.

I guess I don't need to transpose my bio of Finrod here and make all those points again, but refer you to it; you'll find more of the same reasoning and examples there. I pretty much stand by it, although I might write it differently now and, like most of them, it was quickly written. When I run across the same passages for other purposes, those same points pop out at me today.

I do find Finrod quite a mainstream Noldo--almost an exemplary one; he has their virtues and their flaws. This is probably still reactive on my part to exposure in the early 2000s to fanfic which wrote Finrod as an moral anomaly among the exiled Noldor (not everyone wrote him that way but a lot of people did)--above the fray and above criticism--the good Noldo, while all the rest were just terrible people. Tolkien comes close to supporting that, by letting him out the Halls of Mandos early--actually, we think it's early; he is the only exile he specifically mentions being returned to his family after dying in Middle-earth.

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

part of the problem is my language. I tend to chose a more popular and personal style and less scholarly or dry language when writing the bio essays.

I don't see this as a problem, at all! It's much more interesting to read strong opinions, whether I agree with them 100% or not. :)

and was struck at one point after another by how Noldorin Finrod is given the fact that he is genetically only one-quarter Noldor--and is raised with a bit more cultural diversity than say Fingon.

I guess the reason I questioned your initial comment is that I don't think Finrod's status as one of the Great Lords of the Noldor is ever up for debate except in fanon. So it seemed odd to me that he would seem more or less Noldorin based on whether or not he got along with the Feanorians! But in the context of the fanon portrayals you bring up, it makes more sense.

It's actually Morgoth who spills the beans and circulates rumors which Cirdan feels he must report to Thingol.

Of course! But Angrod confirms, and gives credible details. I mentioned him as an example of someone behaving in a typically hot-headed Noldorin fashion...while not being particularly loyal to the Noldorin parts of his family.

This is probably still reactive on my part to exposure in the early 2000s to fanfic which wrote Finrod as an moral anomaly among the exiled Noldor (not everyone wrote him that way but a lot of people did)--above the fray and above criticism--the good Noldo, while all the rest were just terrible people.

HAH. That is...a very simplistic way of looking at it, I completely agree! With so many great antiheroes running around, I think there is room for a few pure hero types as well--but Perfect Finrod does not interest me. (Even Tolkien pokes fun at him occasionally--some of Andreth's barbs during the Athrabeth are pretty hilarious.)

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Poor Tolkien! He kind of wrote himself into a box with the Athrabeth. Got tangled up in the philosophical/theological details and couldn't work his way out. But the tone of the debate is priceless and I adore Finrod and yet love seeing Andreth counter his arguments and put him on the spot! I agree the entire engagement can be hilarious at times.

The more I re-read this stuff, the better I like Finrod as a character. I intend to take your comments on my own arguments seriously and as a friendly reminder to aim before I pull the trigger. My initial response, was more than a little defensive. I have been saying for years that my first experience with the Tolkien fandom--getting close to ten years ago now!--was a bit traumatic. But it's time I started to get over it.

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

I have been saying for years that my first experience with the Tolkien fandom--getting close to ten years ago now!--was a bit traumatic.

I actually faded out of Tolkien fandom around the same time (about ten years ago) and remember how toxic it could be, so no worries on that score!

Poor Tolkien! He kind of wrote himself into a box with the Athrabeth.

It's true, Finrod and Andreth's philosophical speculations about the Fall of Man (!) are more than a bit odd, and I think Tolkien knew it. I have to admit, though, I do love the Athrabeth, and not just for the character development. It's the only work in which Tolkien seriously tackles the idea that Men should be equal to the Elves, and not their vassals. (Plus I love the in-world explanation that the whole thing is a literary dialogue that was studied in Numenor.)

Re: Finrod true Noldo when the chips are down

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

It's the only work in which Tolkien seriously tackles the idea that Men should be equal to the Elves, and not their vassals.

I will have to think of that the next time I read it. I am such an insensitive lout I did not even notice. Probably because when I read Tolkien my world view is so different from his that I turn off part of my normal critical processing apparatus and make shit up that fits better for me! That is an excellent point for him to have made somewhere.

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

~ Do you think Turgon kept up communications with his kin outside Gondolin on any sort of regular basis? Do you think that Fingolfin and Turgon's brothers knew the location of Gondolin, if not the exact road?

I am very curious about this! Lost Tales (I think?) has a reference to "the doves and pigeons of Turgon," and of course he is friends with the eagles, but it's possible that they just bring him the news from the outside world, rather than bringing HIS news to anyone... I think it makes a big difference in terms of his characterization, depending on whether you think he cut off all contact with his family, or not.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I've always suspected--eagles or birds of whatever kind--that Turgon received news from the outside world, but in his paranoia caution to protect his location withheld direct communication with anyone about the doings of Gondolin. My evidence is shaky: primarily, my reading of the surprise and elation of Fingon at Unnumbered Tears when his brother shows up with an army from Gondolin.

"But now a cry went up, passing up the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and Men lifted their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted . . ."

How did Turgon know to come? Who told Turgon if Fingon could not summon him? Had to be Fingon's old friend Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds, or at least that is my prejudice or preference, that perhaps Manwe and his messengers had a soft spot for Fingolfin's eldest son.



(It probably would have taken no less to call Turgon out of Gondolin--again that is dubious personal preference on my part! Trying to be more transparent here about how Tolkien might be read against how he intended to be read.)

I am determined to have fun with this! What if Fingon sent out a prayer to Manwe, "O King to whom all birds are dear, send one of your feathered friends to my brother and tell him that if he ever intended to lend us any kind of support, this would be the time"?

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with you about the one-way communication; Turgon seems pretty paranoid to me, as well.

What if Fingon sent out a prayer to Manwe, "O King to whom all birds are dear, send one of your feathered friends to my brother and tell him that if he ever intended to lend us any kind of support, this would be the time"?

LOL. Well, it worked once, right? If he kept in touch with Thorondor, maybe he could just ask in person?

[independence1776]

I think it makes a big difference in terms of his characterization, depending on whether you think he cut off all contact with his family, or not.

It absolutely does. (I confess to not having given much thought at all to Gondolin. I haven't even read BoLT for it; Lyra's handling the earlier HoME books.) Maybe he sent them letters every once in a while just to let them know he's okay and that Morgoth wasn't behind his disappearance.

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

Maybe he sent them letters every once in a while just to let them know he's okay and that Morgoth wasn't behind his disappearance.

Hah! That would be a very sweet, well-adjusted thing to do.