"Of the Ruin of Beleriand" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

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Summary

Fingolfin thinks to create an alliance of Elves and Men to attack Angband, but only Angrod and Aegnor agree. 450 years after Fingolfin’s arrival in Beleriand, Morgoth makes his move and sends swift fires down from Thangorodrim into Ard-galen. Many die and Ard-galen becomes known as Anfauglith, “Gasping Dust”. This is the beginning of Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, and is held to be the ending of the Siege of Angband.

Glaurung, now come to his full might, leads an army of Balrogs and Orcs. Many die and the foes of Morgoth are sundered from each other. Angrod and Aegnor die, as does Bregolas. His brother Barahir rescues Finrod from certain death and Finrod swears an oath of friendship and aid to Barahir and his kin.

Fingolfin and Fingon could not aid Finarfin’s sons, but Hithlum remains unconquered-- though surrounded by foes-- thanks to the Shadowy Mountains and the Elves and Men who fight.

The eastern marches of Beleriand fall. Celegorm and Curufin flee and take refuge with Finrod in Nargothrond. Maedhros prevents the taking of the Hill of Himring. Maglor joins Maedhros in Himring, but Caranthir joins what remains of his people to Amrod and Amras’ people and they flee southward.

When news of all this comes to Fingolfin, he rides away on his horse Rochallor in despair, feeling that the Noldor will never be able to defeat Morgoth. He rides to Angband, pounds on the door, and challenges Morgoth to single combat. Morgoth, leaving his stronghold for the last time, smites Fingolfin-- though not before Fingolfin wounds him seven times and then finally maims his foot. Thorondor rescues Fingolfin’s body and brings it to Gondolin, where Turgon builds a cairn over it. Fingon becomes the king of the Noldor and he sends his son Gil-galad to the Havens.

Barahir does not flee from Dorthonion, but instead fights on. His wife eventually takes all the families and flees with them to other mortal settlements. None of them see their husbands and sons again. Eventually Barahir is left with twelve men, including his son Beren.

It takes two years for Sauron to conquer Minas Tirith in the midst of the Sirion. He drives Orodreth out and it now becomes known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth. The orcs continue their conquest of Beleriand, sending many Elven slaves back to Angband. Morgoth sends out spies, further dividing the survivors and any slaves that escaped in truth are not believed or trusted.

Men do not all fall for Morgoth’s tricks. The Easterlings enter Beleriand, and some are loyal to Morgoth (such as the sons of Ulfang). Others are not (such as the sons of Bór). The Edain do not get along with them, though they hardly ever meet.

Halmir of the Haladin and Beleg of Doriath stop the orcs from advancing and they do not cross the Teiglin for many years. It allows the Haladin to live in safety and Nargothrond to gather its strength.

However, Húrin and Huor are cut off and nearly killed. Thorondor rescues and brings them to Gondolin for safety. Turgon welcomes them, as he has received dream warnings from Ulmo about help to come from their House. Turgon wishes to keep them in Gondolin for love, not just law, but he grants them leave to return home if Thorondor carries them forth (in order to preserve secrecy). They swear an oath to never reveal where they had been. However, some guess and word eventually reaches Morgoth’s ears.

Turgon, knowing that the ending of the Siege was the beginning of the downfall of the Noldor, sends companies out of Gondolin to the mouths of Sirion and the Isle of Balar. They build ships to sail West and ask for the pardon of the Valar. None succeeded and few returned.

Morgoth is uneasy when he hears rumors about these matters and withdraws his main forces back to Angband to prepare for another battle. It comes seven years after the Dagor Bragollach, and Morgoth sends his troops to Hithlum. Only by virtue of Círdan’s Elves of the Falas was victory won. Húrin, now the head of his House, serves Fingon. During this time, Barahir and his outlaws die, leaving only Beren alive to escape into Doriath.

Our Favorite Quotes

~ “There came a time of winter, when night was dark and without moon; and the wide plain of Ard-galen stretched dim beneath the cold stars, from the hill-forts of the Noldor to the feet of Thangorodrim. The watchfires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum.”

~ “Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills.”

~ “Maedhros did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs fled before his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead.”

~ “Thus [Fingolfin] came alone to Angband’s gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.”

~ “Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.”

~ “Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep.”

~ “The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away.”

~ “From Hithlum there came neither news nor help, and Barahir and his men were hunted like wild beasts; and they retreated to the barren highland above the forest, and wandered among the tarns and rocky moors of that region, furthest from the spies and spells of Morgoth. Their bed was the heather and their roof the sky.”

~ “Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.”

~ “Many of the Noldor and Sindar they took captive and led to Angband, and made them thralls, forcing them to use their skills and knowledge in the service of Morgoth.”

~ “But Galdor said: 'Did you then dwell a year in the wild? Or did the eagles house you in their eyries? But you found food and fine raiment, and return as young princes, not as waifs of the wood.'”

~ “But the seas were wild and wide, and shadow and enchantment lay upon them; and Valinor was hidden.”

~ “In that time also the outlaws of Dorthonion were destroyed, as is told hereafter; and Beren son of Barahir alone escaping came hardly into Doriath.”

Alternate Versions

~ The events of this chapter underwent many changes. In fact, the earliest versions are so different that it is hard to place them with any of the chapters we know. There is no clear delineation between an initial smaller battle (which will in later versions later become the Battle of Sudden Flame) and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in “Gilfanon's Tale”. The Gnomes never spread across Beleriand; after Morgoth approached the original Noldorin camp, they fled South. Eventually, they arrange a host of Men, Noldor and Ilkorins, led by Nólemë (Finwë). Morgoth corrupts some men, who desert or even fall upon the rear of the joint army. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth never happens; in fact, there is no Fingolfin. Gondolin and Nargothrond are founded as a consequence of this battle and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. (1)

~ In the later outline for “Gilfanon's Tale”, some information is added. For instance, it is now said that Tinwelint (Thingol) refuses to march against Morgoth, advising caution. While the joint army is encamped, some treacherous Men go about as minstrels and betray the camp's position, resulting in Morgoth's attack on the Gnomes, Men, and Ilkorins. Nólemë is now explicitly killed in this battle. The Orcs cut out his heart, but Turgon (then Finwë's son, not grandson) succeeds in rescuing both his father's body and his heart, which becomes his heraldic emblem. (2)

~ In the “Book of Lost Tales”, Beren's father is named Egnor the Forester. They are both Gnomes, i.e. Noldor. Egnor's name is later recycled for Aegnor after Tolkien decided to make Beren mortal. (3)

~ Fingolfin's name – and death – first appear in “The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin”, though only cryptically and only in the introduction of the story of Isfin (Aredhel) and Eöl. Fingolfin is killed by Orcs “as he stood alone by Fëanor”. How exactly this constellation came about is unfortunately not explained. However, it can be seen that at this time, Fingolfin is meant to be the father of Turgon and Isfin, but not the son of Finwë. (4)

~ “The Lay of Leithian” finally introduces the story of Fingolfin's death that we know: Fingolfin challenges Morgoth to single combat. For the last time, Morgoth leaves Angband to fight in person. His weapon of choice is Grond, the hammer, while Fingolfin uses his sword Ringil. Fingolfin deals Morgoth seven wounds, and is driven to his knees three times. Even the detail of Fingolfin cleaving Morgoth's foot before his death is already present, as is the rescue of Fingolfin's body by Thorondor, who rends Morgoth's face. Fingolfin's tomb overlooks the valley in which Gondolin will be built – for the founding of Gondolin still happens after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. (5, Canto XII)

~ Another element that first appears in “The Lay of Leithian” is Barahir's band of outlaws: “Beren his son and other ten”. They are now mortals. (5, Canto II)

~ These details from “The Lay of Leithian” appear to have informed parts of “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'”, as many late emendations to the original storyline suggest. For instance, Barahir and Beren are initially “of Ilkorin race”, which is struck out and replaced by “of Mortal race”. Originally, “the men of Barahir rescue Celegorm”, which is emended to “Felagoth (>Felagund) is saved by Barahir the Bold a mortal”. Celegorm and Curufin are first named as the founders of Nargothrond, but they are replaced by Felagund and his brothers (though still aided by Celegorm and Curufin). However, in this version Fingolfin is “slain when Morgoth breaks the leaguer”, implying a death in battle rather than a duel. (6)

~ In “The Quenta”, the rivers of flame and the burning of the plain of Bladorion (Ard-Galen) first appear. There is now a clear difference (and temporal distance) between the Battle of Sudden Flame and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Angrod and Egnor (Aegnor) appear and are promptly slain. The story of Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth has now been worked into the prose account. The misery of the escaped thralls and the mistrust of the Noldor due to Morgoth's infiltrations are mentioned. Aside from some changes of names, this account is already much like the final version. However, Nargothrond is still founded only after Felagund's rescue by Barahir. Also, “The Quenta” states that the Orcs sing of the duel at the Gates of Angband, when later they explicitly do not. (7)

~ “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand” offer a brief summary. There are some changes in comparison to “The Quenta”: Gondolin is now founded well before the Battle of Sudden Fire (8, 50), which is recorded for the year 155. Turgon is now absent from that battle. He sends messengers to the mouths of Sirion and from there, to Valinor, but none return. Húrin, who in this version is at foster with Haleth (still a man – and still alive at this time), comes across some of Turgon's folk while hunting. Turgon's hunters take Haleth and Húrin to Gondolin, but the two mortals do not stay. They swear oaths of secrecy to never reveal the location of Gondolin, and then leave the city in order to lead their own peoples. (8, 155)

~ The first mentions of the Fall of Tol-Sirion and of the Swarthy Men also appear in “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”. According to Annal 157, Morgoth himself takes Tol-Sirion, setting “Thû the wizard” there as his steward. This annal also names some more of Barahir's men: his nephews Baragund and Belegund. Annal 163 describes the Swarthy Men and their many houses. Maidros (Maedhros) makes alliance with the houses of Bor and Ulfand (later Ulfang), father of Uldor the Accursed; but they were “most beloved” by Caranthir, to whom they swear fealty. (8)

~ The “Later Annals of Beleriand” have Haleth and Húrin finding the entrance to Gondolin by themselves. Some of the first appearances are the reason for Turgon’s shipbuilding (to beg for aid and pardon), that Morwen and Rían escape because they were in Hithlum, the defeat of the Orcs at Brethil by the Haladin and Beleg, and the existance of the sons of Bor. The information about Curufin, Celegorm, and Orodreth is confusing as to how they came to Norgothrond. The Annal about the Easterlings arrival is set after all the other events, in the same year that the tale of Beren and Lúthien begins. There is a difference in time between the earlier and later Annals of Beleriand-- Tolkien lengthened the Siege of Angband by two hundred years. (9)

~ The first paragraph in the chapter in the “Quenta Silmarillion” is expanded from Annal 222 and has no earlier text. The story of Celegorm, Curufin, and Orodreth remains confusing, though Sauron now takes Tol-Sirion himself. Glaurung not at his full might at the battle. It is the first occurrence in the “Silmarillion” narrative of Sauron’s name (which first occurred in one of the early Númenor texts), and Sauron is also stated to have been corrupted in Valinor. The Orcs sing of Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth. It is also the first appearance of Turgon building his father’s cairn and that some Easterlings are under Morgoth’s sway. (10)

~ Much of the changes in the “Later Quenta Silmarillion” were to wording and rephrasing. Finrod is Gil-galad’s father and this is in fact the first appearance of Gil-galad in a post-LotR narrative. (11)

~ The changes in “The Grey Annals” are numerous. One of them is the final name of the battle, changing from Dagor Vreged-úr to Dagor Bragollach. Here is also stated that the failure of the ships is due in part to the lack of Noldorin ability to build them. The narrative about Celegorm, Curufin, and Orodreth’s arrival in Nargothrond has been explained: Celegorm and Caranthir rescue Orodreth from certain death when Sauron attacks Minas Tirith, and in gratitude, they are welcomed in Nargothrond. Fingolfin’s cairn is once again built by eagles. Morwen and Rían come to Dor-lomin due to Beren’s mother leading the remnants of their people to safety. Huor replaces Handir/Haleth as Húrin’s companion in Gondolin, and the eagles bring them there and back. (12)

~ Gil-galad’s parentage is complicated. He is originally a descendant of Fëanor’s, though it is not stated from which son. (13) This swiftly changes to a son of Finrod, and remains that way through the publication of The Lord of the Rings. (14) In the “Grey Annals,” the story emerges that Finrod has no wife and child. Fingon becomes Gil-galad’s father. (12, §157) The final version of the tale is Orodreth becoming Angrod’s son and the father of Gil-galad. (15)

Food for Thought

~ Despite their oath, why did the sons of Fëanor not support Fingolfin’s desire to attack Angband?

~ The chronicler of “The Quenta” notes that “the people of Celegorm swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better if they had gone rather to their own kin, who fortified the hill of Himling...”. Do you agree?

~ Maeglin observes to Húrin and Huor that the law of Gondolin has become “less stern than aforetime”. Why do you think that Turgon is willing to let Húrin and Huor leave, when Eöl and Maeglin were not offered that choice (even if they had been willing to swear oaths of secrecy)?

~ Do you think Turgon was right to stay in Gondolin and not send hosts to aid his kin?

~ After his initial disdain for Men, Caranthir now seems happy to accept the service of the sons of Ulfang. Why do you think that is?

~ Who do you think are Gil-galad’s parents?


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 1. “Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind”, The History of the Exiled Gnomes according to the earlier outlines.
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 1. “Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind”, The History of the Exiled Gnomes according to the later outlines.
(3) The Book of Lost Tales 2. “The Tale of Tinúviel”.
(4) The Lays of Beleriand. “Poems Early Abandoned”, iii. The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin.
(5) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of Leithian”, Canto II & XII.
(6) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'”, 9 and Notes.
(7) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Quenta”, 9.
(8) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”, 50; 155 – 158; 163.
(9) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, 255-263
(10) The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion, 11 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
(11) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 15 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
(12) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §145-174
(13) The Lost Road, The Fall of Númenor, (iii) The second version of the Fall of Númenor, “The Last Tale: The Fall of Númenor,” §14
(14) The Lost Road, The Fall of Númenor, (iv) The further development of The Fall of Númenor
(15) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor,” The parentage of Gil-galad

Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of Beren and Lúthien” is due September 7.

Comments

[hhimring]

((Unless there really is an alternative version of the story in which Caranthir rather than Curufin ends up with Celegorm in Nargothrond, you may have twice typed "Caranthir" meaning Curufin in the Alternate Versions section?))

The odd thing is that the Silm passage itself actually admits there are reasons not to attack Morgoth as well as reasons for choosing to attack him, but I could never help feeling that the description of the refusal of the Sons of Feanor by the narrator is meant to do other than make them look bad at this point. It's just too unlikely that, despite the Oath, all seven of them would be unanimously more reluctant to attack Angband than Finrod and Orodreth.
Although the possibility is not actually mentioned here, I suppose it could be that that they feel the attack when it comes should be under their leadership as per Celegorm and Curufin's later plans (I think Clotho has suggested something like that)--but Maedhros at least was apparently cooperating perfectly well militarily with Fingolfin during the Dagor Aglareb and it seems unclear, in his case, why that would have changed in the meantime.

I've recc'ed a fan fic by Calima which gives a really nice explanation, but one which I'm sure is not envisaged in canon.
(I've also written an explanatory fic myself, but that one's slightly AU.)

[independence1776]

(Thank you for spotting that! It is indeed Curufin, and I'll edit the post.)

It's just too unlikely that, despite the Oath, all seven of them would be unanimously more reluctant to attack Angband than Finrod and Orodreth.

I find that unlikely myself. At least one of them would have wanted to, but maybe they were in the minority and Maedhros wanted to present a united front? Or, as you said, they felt they should lead it.

I'll have to read her fic. (And AUs are welcome, too!)

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

I'll start by the last question: who's Gil-galad's dad?
I suscribe to the published Silm family tree - Orodreth is Finarfin's son and Gil-galad is Fingon's son - for no better reason than this:

Fingon in sorrow took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor; but his young son Ereinion (who was after named Gil-galad) he sent to the Havens.

I've always found this paragraph very poignant and descriptive as to how Fingon felt after his father's death: perfect Silm style - moving while telling a whole story in two lines. If Orodreth were substituted for Fingon, probably my reaction would be: so what? Fingon's daddyhood adds an additional twist to the M/F story which has generated quite a few very satisfying fics that account for the baby.

[independence1776]

That's pretty much my reasoning, too. It doesn't add anything to the story for me for Gil-galad's father to be someone else. (Plus, I prefer the Silm over HoME for my personal canon, with a few exceptions, so that ties into it as well.)

Who's Gil-galad's daddy? Give him a blood test!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I'm with you entirely! And I am writing a personal-canon which makes a huge issue out of Fingon being Gil-galad's father.

The more I do research for the character bios the more reasons/hints I can see for envisioning Orodreth as his father--subtle ways in which that paternity reflects/enhances Tolkien's positions in other areas (Gil-galad fits in the House of Finarfin in a lot of ways (just does not fit very well with Oropher for me). I am not going to defend my thinking here today--sadly do not have time and that could be a doctoral thesis--but I will write some of them up some day.

But the problem is that Tolkien initially was obscure or undecided, and C.T. made a choice and went to print with it. I read that version and it informed my vivid internal images of those characters and events for years before I read in the HoMe that he had regretted his decision! If it were real world history, I might be forced to abandon Fingon with great sadness and embrace Orodreth, but it's fiction and hardly likely that any primary sources will be added to our knowledge at this point. So I get to give Gil-galad an incomparably attractive and valiant father guilt-free!!

"The final version of the tale is Orodreth becoming Angrod’s son and the father of Gil-galad."

I think you're reaching here a little to say this was final--actually, that part was never finished. C.T. says he believes that his father may have entertained Fingon as the father of Gil-galad in only an ephemeral sense. But that again is only an opinion--we have no way of reaching Tolkien for clarification and he did not complete his edit of the documents.

Not going to lie--I love the poignancy and added complexity that fatherhood gives to Fingon for purposes of my ongoing saga of the undying love of Fingon and Maedhros.

Re: Who's Gil-galad's daddy? Give him a blood test!

[independence1776]

I read that version and it informed my vivid internal images of those characters and events for years before I read in the HoMe that he had regretted his decision!

Me, too. There are very few things I've changed my mind about due to HoME, and that is not one of them.

I think you're reaching here a little to say this was final

I meant final as in "last information we have," not final as in "final decision."

Re: Who's Gil-galad's daddy? Give him a blood test!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I meant final as in "last information we have," not final as in "final decision."

I'll buy that!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

On the refusal of Maedhros et al to support FIngolfin's idea, I mostly just put it down to "judgement call" and leave it at that. Though my version of Caranthir is certainly of the view that the whole enterprise was futile from the start, and simply wants the Noldor to hold on as long as they can in the hope that something will survive the coming and inevitable disaster (this is why he is so bad-tempered). As for his relations with Men, I see him as a pragmatist. He had good relations with the Dwarves, though I doubt if he liked them much either. Men were there and potentially useful (as cannon fodder, if nothing else - no doubt this was why Haleth turned down the offer for the Haladin to join him), so he used them.

The duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth is interesting, because it shows how far down Morgoth has come. This is the greatest created power in the universe, someone who could in earlier times presumably have destroyed Fingolfin just by thinking about it. And yet he is now so reduced that he basically has to kill Fingolfin by hitting him with a stick, like a housewife killing a cockroach. It's also interesting that he (I assume) felt insecure enough to have to respond to Fingolfin's challenge in person, thus accepting Fingolfin as an equal, rather than just having him shot from the battlements.

It would certainly have changed a lot of things if Curufin and Celegorm had made it to Himring instead of Nargothrond. But ultimately I think that Morgoth would still have prevailed, though probably by a different chain of events. Overwhelming force is overwhelming force.

Fingon is not a character I've ever felt the urge to address, so I'm happy to stay with the Silmarillion version of Gil-Galad's parentage.

[independence1776]

And yet he is now so reduced that he basically has to kill Fingolfin by hitting him with a stick, like a housewife killing a cockroach. It's also interesting that he (I assume) felt insecure enough to have to respond to Fingolfin's challenge in person, thus accepting Fingolfin as an equal, rather than just having him shot from the battlements.

That's a really interesting take on it (and the comparison made me laugh). I don't read it so much as insecurity as a matter of honor: that while he might be frightened, he couldn't let Fingolfin's words and challenge to him stand unanswered.

But ultimately I think that Morgoth would still have prevailed, though probably by a different chain of events. Overwhelming force is overwhelming force.

Exactly. Not a question of if (though the Elves seem to have believed that, at least in part), but when.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Did Morgoth have honour, though?

Not a question of if (though the Elves seem to have believed that, at least in part), but when.

Though relations among the different Elvish factions might have been better, if there had been no kidnapping of Luthien or betrayal of Finrod. Finrod was after all the only one of the Kings of Beleriand who was on speaking terms with everyone else (who was around to speak to, and not lurking in their own Hidden City) so his death, particularly in those circumstances, was pretty much the beginning of the end for the Elvish more-or-less united front.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Honour, no... but a reputation to loose! Depending on Orcish culture, hiding in safety from a direct challenge might be an act of cowardice. If Boss!Ainu doesn't even stand up to one single Elf, why, the Orcish masses might rise. Or one of the Balrogs who at least do their own fighting might be put into Morgoth's place. That's just my interpretation, naturally, but I suspect it's not so much a matter of honour as it is a matter of risking a revolution of your minions if you show yourself "frightened" or "cowardly". "Not willing to fight" might well be seen as "not capable of fighting"!

Though relations among the different Elvish factions might have been better, if there had been no kidnapping of Luthien or betrayal of Finrod.

Especially the latter, I suspect. I mean, I despise the kidnapping of Lúthien, but politically seen, Thingol was already hating the Noldor anyway. (If anything, Celegorm probably reaaaaally clumsily attempted to bridge the gap between the Noldor and the Sindar of Doriath, except he really should have known that this is not how you do it. Even Curufin could've told him that, to go by his words of "without gift or leave" in the past chapter...) But Finrod seems to have been the star diplomat everybody respected, so betraying him pissed everyone off...

[independence1776]

I think he had a very weird, twisted form of personal honor. But that's me. :)

Good point about Finrod.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

This is the greatest created power in the universe, someone who could in earlier times presumably have destroyed Fingolfin just by thinking about it. And yet he is now so reduced that he basically has to kill Fingolfin by hitting him with a stick, like a housewife killing a cockroach.

I love this and I agree.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

One of my faults is that I tend to have firm opinions and don't like to budge from them (some of you may have noticed >_>). Astonishingly enough, I have no real opinion on Gil-galad's parentage. This is possibly the one and only thing in Tolkien "canon" where I'm happy to go with "whatever works". He can be Fingon's son, sure. Or Finrod's. Or Orodreth's, who may or may not be a son or grandson of Finarfin. Or someone else's son entirely who got adopted by one of the above. In this one case, I'm willing to accept whatever any single fanficcer may have chosen to work with for their fic.

(No, that wasn't always the case! And it's still such a rare thing that I just had to announce it here. ;))

[independence1776]

I do have an opinion (Fingon's his father), but I have no problem reading fics where he isn't. It's not a dealbreaker for me and will never be.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Except that I don't even have an opinion. I'm fine with Fingon, though. I'm sure he'd be a great father. (Possibly driven nuts by his sons' tendency to try dangerous things, and then Fingolfin will just smirk and say "Yes, dear, that's what it feels like". Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.)

[independence1776]

I'm sure if I put more thought into either character, I'd care more. (*cackles* I can so easily see Fingolfin doing that.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's probably my reason for being indifferent too. ^^
On the other hand, it's quite healthy (especially for opinionated me ;)) to have an issue that I'm honestly relaxed about. I should be able to just not care either way about more things in fandom, that would have spared me some sleepless nights (seriously!) and some useless arguments...

[hhimring]

Re Caranthir:

It looks to me as if the Caranthir of the published Silmarillion text is mainly being pragmatic (and not very curious).

The Haladin are a small group and arrive at a time when Caranthir is not immediately under threat. They look insignificant--they got themselves chased northwards by the Green Elves, they settle on what seems to be no man's land on the section of the border that Caranthir is worrying about the least and they don't actually ask for his attention, apparently.
He doesn't find himself aesthetically repelled by them, as by Dwarves, but unlike the Dwarves they also don't seem to offer much of interest. The fact that Finrod is disposed to make a fuss about the Edain would be more likely to put Caranthir off, because apparently he dislikes Finarfinian busybodies..
He doesn't expect the Haladin to be in danger where they are, either--it's a surprise attack by the orcs, virtually behind his back.
He develops an interest when he sees the Haladin's valour. But I doubt, even then, whether he's actually thinking of "cannon fodder". After all, this already small group of people has just been further reduced--and considerably so--by the orc attack. (In the Nirnaeth, eventually, all the Haladin contingent will fall without getting themselves noticed very much...)

At the time when the Easterlings arrive, Caranthir's situation is very different. He's lost a great deal in the Dagor Bragollach, he is probably trying to take back Thargelion and certainly, later on, to secure the eastern front for the Union of Maedhros and he badly needs allies. The Easterlings, we are told, are numerous and they look like useful allies. (The Edain elsewhere have turned out to be more useful allies than Caranthir had originally expected, probably.) Except then it all goes wrong, of course.

This is probably different from the Caranthir of the earlier Legendarium, who is actually said to have loved Ulfang's people. But I think that Caranthir was not, at this point, involved with Haleth and the Haladin at all yet? Or was he?

On another note--with regard to the "cannon fodder" discussion--perhaps it is worth noting that at the time when the Noldor of Hithlum are themselves suffering their own grievous losses, they are explicitly said to mourn Hador and Gundor. The Noldor are also said to remember Barahir and his companions in song (even though apparently he gets no assistance from them in Dorthonion... Which worries me, although presumably the idea is that nobody can reach him).

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that Caranthir's attitudes appear to be shaped by a) history having happened and b) the Easterlings appear at a time when he can really use allies.

This is probably different from the Caranthir of the earlier Legendarium, who is actually said to have loved Ulfang's people. But I think that Caranthir was not, at this point, involved with Haleth and the Haladin at all yet? Or was he?

No, you're right - the "Earliest Annals" do not mention any particular connection between (then male) Haleth and his people, and Caranthir. So the "love for Ulfang's people" may well later have turned into Caranthir's late respect for the Haladin!

On another note--with regard to the "cannon fodder" discussion--perhaps it is worth noting that at the time when the Noldor of Hithlum are themselves suffering their own grievous losses, they are explicitly said to mourn Hador and Gundor.

They generally seem to be shaken by mortal deaths, even the natural sort - or that's the impression I got from the previous chapter, anyway. And there are definitely some strong friendships between Elves and Men. So yes, it surely was unfair to speak of "cannon fodder". It just was such a handy term! >_>