SWG Re-Read - "Of Beren and Lúthien" Discussion Post

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Of Beren and Lúthien

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion! We apologise for the length of this post. As you doubtlessly know, the contents of this chapter were extremely important to Tolkien, so it is full of important stuff and it was pretty much impossible to cut anything short.

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine to jump in, even if you haven’t participated in previous discussions. We don’t bite!

Also, you are welcome to comment on old chapter discussions. Although the re-read is moving on, discussions are never closed!


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Summary

Barahir and his band of outlaws continue to live in the forest of Dorthonion. Their hiding place is by the lake Tarn Aeluin. Morgoth cannot find it, but he hears rumours about Barahir and his men, so he commands Sauron to find and destroy them. Sauron succeeds by tricking one of Barahir's companions, Gorlim, who had found his house plundered and his wife Eilinel gone when he returned from war. One day, Gorlim sees a vision of Eilinel through a lighted window, but even as he tries to make contact, the light is blown out and Sauron's hunters grasp Gorlim. He is tormented, but refuses to betray the position of Barahir's camp until they promise to restore him to Eilinel. Then he yields. Sauron questions him and Gorlim replies, but he does not receive his reward: Eilinel is dead after all. Sauron kills Gorlim as well.

Now Morgoth knows where Barahir is hiding. He sends his Orcs, who kill all but one: Barahir's son Beren, who is away on an errand the day the Orcs attack. In a dream, he sees a wraith of Gorlim who admits what he has done, and bids Beren to warn his father. Beren comes too late. He can only bury his father and hunt down the Orcs who killed him and the other outlaws. The Orc captain shows his companions the hand of Barahir, which he has cut off as proof of their succesful mission. Beren, witnessing the scene from hiding, jumps out, kills the captain, takes his father's hand with the ring of Felagund on it, and runs away before the Orcs have recovered from the surprise.

Beren now wanders through Dorthonion alone. He becomes the friend of birds and beasts and stops eating meat or killing anything that isn't in Morgoth's service. He continues his father's work. Morgoth eventually sets the same price upon his head as on that of Fingon, but the Orcs do not dare to pursue Beren. Rumours of his brave deeds against Morgoth reach even Doriath. At last, Sauron leads an army with werewolves against Beren. Now Beren has to flee Dorthonion. He journeys southward over the mountains of Gorgoroth and through Nan Dungortheb. Helped by fate, he makes his way to Doriath and through the enchantments of Melian. In the woods of Neldoreth, he sees Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, dancing. An enchantment falls upon him. The pain of his journey falls from him, but he is also struck dumb when Lúthien vanishes from his sight. He strays through the woods, seeking for her. Summer, Autumn and Winter pass while he is under the enchantment. On the eve of Spring, Beren hears Lúthien sing, and the spell is lifted from him. He cries 'Tinúviel', the name that he has given Lúthien in his heart. She stops and looks at him, and immediately falls in love. Nonetheless, she flees from him, and he swoons. When he wakes again, he is desperate and cold as stone.

But Lúthien returns. They confess their love for each other and meet in secret all through Spring. Then Daeron, who also loves Lúthien, espies them and betrays them to Thingol. Thingol is furious. He questions Lúthien, but she will not reply until he swears that he will neither slay nor imprison Beren. However, he does send servants to find Beren and lead him to judgement. Forestalling him, Lúthien leads Beren before Thingol's throne as a guest. At first, Beren is daunted by the splendour of Menegroth and the majesty of Thingol. But when he looks upon Lúthien and Melian, his courage and pride return. He tells Thingol that he loves Lúthien, and that nothing in the world will keep him from her. Thingol now regrets that he has sworn to Lúthien that he will not kill Beren, and he says so. Beren shows Felagund's ring to prove that he is neither as base-born as Thingol thinks nor a thrall of Morgoth. Melian counsels Thingol to be careful. But Thingol is too upset that his beloved daughter should be loved by a mortal. He says that Beren may marry Lúthien when he brings Thingol a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Beren declares that he will perform what Thingol has asked, and leaves. Melian admonishes Thingol that he has doomed either his daughter or himself. From that day on, Lúthien no longer sings in Doriath.

Beren now seeks out Felagund in Nargothrond and tells him of Barahir's death and of his quest for the Silmaril. Felagund realises that it brings doom upon himself, but he is bound by his oath to Barahir to help Beren. He announces to his people that he must support Beren's quest. Celegorm and Curufin, guests in Nargothrond, cause discord. In the end, Felagund surrenders the rule of Nargothrond to his brother Orodreth, and finds only ten faithful men to accompany him and Beren. They set out, slay a band of Orcs, and by craft Felagund makes their own faces resemble those of Orcs. Then they make for Angband, but Sauron waylays them, wondering that a company of Orcs would not make halt and report their deeds to him. Felagund and Sauron battle in songs. At last Sauron is victorious, strips their disguise from them, and imprisons them in a dark pit where he announces to kill them cruelly if they do not betray their purpose. One by one, the companions are slain and eaten by a werewolf, but none of them give Sauron the answer he demands.

Meanwhile, Lúthien feels that Beren is in dire need. Melian confirms this, telling her that Beren is imprisoned in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Lúthien plans to escape from Doriath and free him, but she feels that she cannot do it alone. She seeks help from Daeron, who fears for her safety and betrays her to Thingol. Thingol is upset, and devises a prison for Lúthien in the crown of a three-shafted beech called Hirilorn. Lúthien manages to escape by enchanting her hair and weaving from it a cloak that hides her like a shadow and is moreover laden with a spell of sleep. She makes a rope from the same material, and climbs down from her little house. Thereby she manages to leave Doriath unseen, but she chances upon Celegorm and Curufin on a hunt. Celegorm's chief hound, Huan, is not fooled by the shadow cloak. He brings Lúthien to Celegorm. Initially, Lúthien is glad because she expects help from him. She declares her purpose and also explains that Beren and Felagund have been imprisoned by Sauron. Celegorm falls in love with her beauty and claims that he will help her if she comes with him to Nargothrond. She agrees. In Nargothrond, they take away her cloak, and she is imprisoned again. Celegorm wishes to marry Lúthien, and sends messengers to Thingol. But Huan regrets Lúthien's captivity. He often visits Lúthien. Eventually, he brings her her cloak and helps her to escape, accompanying her and serving as a steed.

Only Beren and Felagund are now left alive. When the werewolf comes to devour Beren, Felagund breaks his bonds and wrestles with the werewolf. He succeeds in killing the werewolf, but is fatally wounded as well. Beren mourns him even as Lúthien arrives and sings a song that Beren hears even down in the dungeons. He sings in answer, but then his strength leaves him and he falls unconscious. However, Lúthien has heard him, and sings a more powerful song yet. Sauron sends werewolves against her, but Huan kills all of them except for an old, fierce werewolf named Draugluin, who escapes and tells Sauron that Huan is there. Sauron knows that Huan will only die by the jaws of the mightiest wolf in the world. He tries to become that wolf himself. At first, Huan jumps aside in terror when he sees Wolf-Sauron, but Lúthien casts her cloak before Sauron's eyes. When he stumbles, Huan attacks. Wolf-Sauron cannot win against him, even though he shifts shape. Lúthien threatens that Huan will kill Sauron's body, and that they will send his spirit back to Morgoth who will surely torment him for his failure. Sauron surrenders, and escapes to Taur-nu-fuin in the shape of a vampire when Huan releases him. Lúthien now makes the walls and gates of Tol-in-Gaurhoth fall down. Many prisoners come out, but not Beren. Lúthien and Huan search for him and eventually find him, but he is bent over the corpse of Felagund and they first believe that he is dead as well. But when Lúthien embraces him, swooning herself, he returns to himself. They bury Felagund's body, and walk free.

Huan returns to Nargothrond, as do many of the prisoners of Sauron whom Lúthien set free. They report the death of Felagund and accuse the sons of Fëanor of idleness and cowardice, but some realise that they were rather acting out of treachery. Some want to kill them, but Orodreth does not allow it, although he banishes Celegorm and Curufin, who leave without any followers but Huan and their horses. They make for Himring, riding through the marches north of Doriath.

Beren and Lúthien return to the borders of Doriath, where Beren wants to return Lúthien to safety. He cannot come with her since he has not managed to obtain a Silmaril. Lúthien declares that he must either forego his quest or fulfill it, but either way, she will come with him. Even as they speak, Celegorm and Curufin come upon them. Curufin lifts Lúthien to his saddle and Celegorm means to ride Beren down, but Beren jumps upon Curufin's horse and throttles him. Celegorm almost stabs him with his spear, but Huan now leaves Celegorm's service and stands in his way, making his horse swerve. Lúthien keeps Beren from killing Curufin. Instead, Beren takes Curufin's gear, weapons, and horse. As they turn away, Curufin tries to shoot Lúthien with Celegorm's bow. The first arrow, Huan catches in his mouth. The second, Beren takes in his breast. Huan then chases the sons of Fëanor away and returns with a herb Lúthien can use to heal Beren. They return to Doriath.

Beren wants Lúthien to be safe but knows he has to fulfil his quest, so he leaves secretly one morning. When he comes into view of Thangorodrim, he dismisses Curufin's horse and makes to walk on alone, singing a song of farewell. This song is answered by Lúthien, who has followed Beren with Huan. They have brought the fur of Draugluin the werewolf and the hide of Thuringwethil the vampire from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Beren and Lúthien disguise themselves and come to Angband, where Morgoth has meanwhile bred a huge werewolf named Carcharoth. Carcharoth, keeping watch at the gates, stops them. Lúthien is possessed by some ancient power and sends Carcharoth to sleep. Beren and Lúthien come into Morgoth's throne room. Beren continues to act like a wolf, but Lúthien is discovered by Morgoth. She claims that she has come to sing before him as a minstrel. Morgoth lusts for her beauty and believes her; but when Lúthien sings, Morgoth's court falls asleep, and even Morgoth eventually falls from his throne, unconscious. Lúthien wakes Beren, who uses Curufin's knife Angrist to cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. He then wants to take the other two as well, but the knife breaks. One shard hits Morgoth, who threatens to wake. Beren and Lúthien then flee, leaving their disguise behind, and are again stopped by Carcharoth, who is awake again. Beren tries to blind the werewolf with the Silmaril in his hand, but Carcharoth simply bites of the hand. However, because Varda once hallowed the Silmarils so that no unclean flesh could touch them, the Silmaril burns him from inside and he flees, howling. Lúthien, weakened by her efforts in Angband, manages to draw the werewolf-poison out of Beren's arm. Before Morgoth's hosts can reawaken and come for them, Thorondor and two other eagles come to rescue Beren and Lúthien and bring them back to the borders of Doriath.

It takes a long time until Lúthien can restore Beren to life. Lúthien would wander through the wild with Beren, but Beren still wants to return her home, and he also does not want to deprive Thingol of his daughter forever. Therefore they enter into Doriath, where evil times have befallen. Daeron has left, Melian withholds her counsel from Thingol, and Carcharoth has broken the girdle and rages in the forest. When Beren and Lúthien return unlooked-for, many people follow them out of hope or curiosity. Beren declares to Thingol that he has fulfilled his quest, and that a Silmaril is in his hand. Thingol demands to see it. Beren explains that he lost the hand to Carcharoth. Thingol is amazed and finally allows Beren and Lúthien to marry.

But Carcharoth is still on the loose. So a hunting party is prepared, consisting of Huan, Mablung, Beleg, Beren and Thingol himself. They find and attack Carcharoth. Beren is struck down and bitten in the breast, but before Carcharoth can finish him off, Huan leaps upon his back. They fight. Huan slays Carcharoth, but he is also poisoned and killed. Mablung cuts the Silmaril from Carcharoth's belly and gives it to Beren, who holds it out to Thingol. They then carry Beren 's body to the feet of Hirilorn. Lúthien weeps and asks him to wait for him beyond the Western Sea.

Beren indeed waits for her in the Halls of Mandos. Lúthien's spirit flees her body and she also comes to Mandos, singing before Mandos and moving him so much that, at Manwë's counsel, he offers Lúthien two choices: Either to go to Valimar, to live among the Valar until the world's end, or to return with Beren to Middle-earth, but as a mortal. She chooses the latter option. Beren and Lúthien are released from Mandos and finally live together – for a while.

Our Favorite Quotes

~ “Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under shadow of death light that endures.”

~ “But the waters of Tarn Aeluin were held in reverence, for they were clear and blue by day and by night were a mirror for the stars; and it was said that Melian herself had hallowed that water in days of old.”

~ “[Beren] did not fear death, but only captivity, and being bold and desperate he escaped both death and bonds; and the deeds of lonely daring that he achieved were noised abroad throughout Beleriand, and the tale of them came even into Doriath. At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the price upon the head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumour of his approach than sought him out.”

~ “Blue was [Lúthien's] raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.”

~ “Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed.”

~ “Then Beren lay upon the ground in a swoon, as one slain at once by bliss and grief; and he fell into a sleep as it were into an abyss of shadow, and waking he was cold as stone, and his heart barren and forsaken.”

~ “Therefore [Thingol] spoke in grief and amazement to Lúthien; but she would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. But he sent his servants to lay hands on him and lead him to Menegroth as a malefactor; and Lúthien forestalling them led Beren herself before the throne of Thingol, as if he were an honored guest.”

~ “Then Beren answered: 'Death you can give me earned or unearned; but then ames I will not take from you of baseborn, nor spy, nor thrall. By the ring of Felagund, that he gave to Barahir my father on the battlefield of the North, my house has not earned such names from any Elf, be he king or no.'”

~ “' See now! I too desire a treasure that is withheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that I would possess against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms. Yet I hear you say that bonds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall hold me generous.'”

~ “And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took from his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. Yet if there be any on whom the shadow of our curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a beggar that is thrust from the gates.'”

~ “He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn —-
And Finrod fell before the throne.“

~ “But Huan the hound was true of heart, and the love of Lúthien had fallen upon him in the first hour of their meeting; and he grieved at her captivity. Therefore he often came to her chamber; and at night he lay before her door, for he felt that evil had come to Nargothrond.”

~ “Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and cpatives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moonlight, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron. But Beren came not.”

~ “Now Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel went free again and together walked through the woods renewing for a time their joy; and though winter came it hurt them not, for flowers lingered where Lúthien went, and the birds sang beneath the snowclad hills.”

~ “But [Lúthien] was not willing to be parted from him again, saying, ‘You must choose, Beren, between these two: to relinquish the quest and your oath and seek a life of wandering upon the face of the earth; or to hold to your word and challenge the power of darkness upon its throne. But on either road I shall go with you, and our doom shall be alike.’”

~ “Then Beren lifting Curufin flung him from him, and bade him walk now back to his noble kinsfolk, who might teach him to turn his valour to worthier use. 'Your horse,' he said, 'I keep for the service of Lúthien, and it may be accounted happy to be free of such a master.'”

~ “Lifting up her hand [Lúthien] commanded [Carcharoth] to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.”

~ “[Lúthien] was not daunted by [Morgoth’s] eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel.”

~ “Then Lúthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before [Morgoth's] eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the Outer Void where once he had walked alone. Suddenly he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche, and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the floors of hell. The iron crown rolled echoing from his head. All things were still.”

~ “Even in that dark hour Beren and Lúthien returned, hastening from the west, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful. They came at last to the gates of Menegroth, and a great host followed them.”

~ “' I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
And Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.”

~ “And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, and among the great in Arda, and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world.”

~ “Beren spoke not, but laid his head upon the head of the hound, and so they parted.”

~ “For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.”

~ “The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and listening the Valar are grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.”

~ “This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her coice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness and Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.”


Alternate Versions

~ The first extant manuscript of this chapter from 1917, titled “The Tale of Tinúviel”, differs from the final version in a great many details, although the basic storyline is already in place. We will here list only the things that are different from the final version.

* Beren is not mortal, but a Noldo. His father is named Egnor the forester. The first draft gives no further information on Egnor (1). The second draft states that Egnor is among the chiefest foes of Morgoth along with Turgon (then Fingolfin's name) and the sons of Fëanor, and that he was a brother in arms of Úrin (Húrin). (2)
Lúthien, whose proper name is Tinúviel in these drafts, has a brother: Dairon. (1, 2) Tinwelint (Thingol) is not immediately unfriendly to Beren, but only turns so when Beren declares his love for Tinúviel. (1)

* It takes less time for Beren and Tinúviel to meet again – Beren has to wait for a chance to speak to her for “many a day” rather than a whole year. She is aware of his presence and does not mind it, because “she saw that he was kind and in love with her beautiful dancing”. Indeed, when he first speaks to her, he asks her to teach him to dance. She dances ahead of him, and he follows her into the halls of her home. (1)

* Although Beren is himself a Noldo in these drafts, he does not try to get help from other Elves on his quest for the Silmarils. The entire storyline surrounding Nargothrond, the abdication, the magic duel and the death of Felagund is absent. Instead, Beren is taken prisoner on his journey north when he tries to steal food from some Orcs. They torment him, but do not kill him because they see that he is strong and brave and may be interesting for their master. When they take him before Melko, Beren claims that he was looking to get there anyway, seeking employ as a hunter. Melko is amused and sends Beren as a thrall to Tevildo Prince of Cats. Tevildo is less amused. He puts Beren's skill as a hunter to the test, but because Beren has no tools or means to build a trap, he cannot even catch the three rat-like, vicious Angband mice that Tevildo demands. It is said that Beren was indeed a skilled hunter and trapper, so he has not turned vegetarian in these drafts. Beren is useless, but Tevildo does not dare to kill him because he was sent by Melko himself; therefore Beren is made a scullion.(1)

* The “Tale of Tinúviel” describes in detail how Lúthien manages to escape from Hirilorn: She asks for a bowl of silver filled with the clearest water from the stream below, brought to her at midnight with no word spoken, and also for a flagon of gold filled with wine, brought to her at noon by somebody singing. She asks a spinning wheel of Melian and a loom of Dairon. Dairon asks what she will use for spinning and weaving, and she answers, “With spells and with magics.” Dairon does not appear to see anything untoward in that; at any rate, he says nothing to the king or queen. Tinúviel then mingles the water and wine and pours them from flagon to bowl, singing two different songs of growth. After that, she laves her hair with the concoction while singing a song of sleep. Her hair immediately grows longer and longer. She has to grope for her shears in a cloud of hair in order to cut it off. (1)

* Dairon is lost when he tries to follow Tinúviel. It is said that he ends up playing magical musics in the woods of the south, rather than by the sea. Between Tinúviel's rescue of Beren and their journey to Angamandi (Angband), Tinúviel sometimes thinks she can hear him play. (1)

* Huan is a freelancer in these drafts, roaming and hunting at his own pleasure. He encounters the fleeing Tinúviel. He knows Beren from ancient days and is eager to help Tinúviel release him, especially as Tevildo Prince of Cats is (naturally) his enemy. He devises a cunning plan. She goes to Tevildo and claims that she has seen Huan ill or wounded, so that Tevildo can kill him now. Tevildo with two of his thanes and Tinúviel as a guide sets off, but it is a trap. Huan kills Oikeroi, chases the other thane up a tree, and wounds Tevildo who also flees up a tree. Huan threatens to let him bleed to death upon the tree unless he gives Tinúviel the means to free Beren. Tevildo relents, giving her his golden collar and magic words that holds the stones of Tevildo's house together and holds all cats under his sway. She uses the magic words to release not only Beren, but all other Elven and mortal prisoners. One of them is named Gimli. Huan lets Tevildo go, and Beren, Tinúviel and Huan set off together towards Doriath. As a trophy, Huan takes the skin of Oikeroi with him. (1)

* Tinúviel wants to return home, but Beren points out that he cannot come with her. He comes to the conclusion that they have to go and get a Silmaril together. Huan thinks it is folly, but still gives up the skin of Oikeroi when Tinúviel asks it of him. She disguises Beren with the cat-skin and teaches him how to move and behave like a cat. He never learns meowing or purring convincingly, however. Tinúviel likes to stroke Beren or pull his tail. They go to Angamandi, where surprisingly nobody knows about Oikeroi's death yet. Karkaras (Carcharoth) leads them to Melko. Oikeroi-Beren slinks down underneath Melko's chair, but Tinúviel cannot hide that she does not belong there. When Melko asks who she is “that flitteth about my halls like a bat”, she gives her proper name and says that she escaped from her overbearing father in order to find a position as a dancer at his court. Melko declares that he doesn't care for dancing, but he allows her to dance while he ponders what to do with her. (1)

* Beren cuts the Silmaril from Melko's crown with a mere kitchen knife from Tevildo's kitchen. The knife breaks even while he pries the first Silmaril from the crown. (1)

* After Carcharoth has bitten off Beren's hand with the Silmaril, Beren and Tinúviel still have strength to run. When they have time to catch their breath, Tinúviel kisses Beren's arm so that it neither bleeds nor hurts, but is “healed by the tender healing of her love”. Huan has meanwhile gathered his pack to help Beren and Tinúviel. He meets them in the forest and takes Tinúviel, who appears quite small and fairy-like in this version anyway, on his back while Beren has to run beside him. They have to fight Orcs, but at last they escape. (1)

* Doriath is in even more dire need in “The Tale of Tinúviel”. Tinwelint has lost many warriors in the search for Tinúviel, and is distraught with grief. There is war upon the northern and eastern borders of his land. The queen's magic threatens to fail; she neither smiles nor speaks, and her protection on the forest has grown thin. Karkaras is only the most recent of their troubles. (1)

* Unlike Beren, Huan survives the hunt for Karkaras. He will take no reward from Tinwelint, but wanders forth in grief. One day he comes across Mablung, and the two of them take up hunting in lonely parts until the days of Glorund (Glaurung). (1)

* Already, Lúthien moves Mandos to pity, and is permitted to lead Beren back into the world; however, because they have avoided the normal path of recollection in Mandos followed by rebirth in Valinor, they both become mortal and will die again forever, unless the Valar summon them to Valinor in person. (1)

* In the second draft, some names have already been changed: Tinwelint has become Singoldo, Gwendeling has become Melian, and Angamandi has become Angband. (2)

~ “The Lay of Leithian”, begun in 1925 and abandoned in 1931, differs from the final version in form (it is completely written in rhyming couplets) but introduces most of the elements familiar from the final version.

* Many naming changes occur. The most confusing document is Version A of “The Lay of Leithian”, in which the lover's name is Maglor son of Egnor, and the heroine herself is called Melilot daughter of Celegorm. She is described as blonde and blue-eyed. (3, Commentary on Canto I) However, in “The Children of Húrin” Tolkien introduced the name of Lúthien and Thingol, used the names of Maglor and Celegorm for sons of Fëanor, and brought back the name of Beren from “The Tale of Tinúviel”. (4) When he abandoned “The Children of Húrin” in favour of “The Lay of Leithian”, beginning Version B of the poem, he apparently decided to continue using the names as they were in “The Children of Húrin”.

* Perhaps most importantly, Beren is now mortal. His father is named Barahir. The backstory of Barahir rescuing Felagund and earning his ring and a vow of aid is introduced, as are Gorlim's betrayal of the outlaws' hiding-place, Gorlim's post-mortem appearance to Beren, the Orc-captain's boast, Beren's rescue of his father's hand, and Beren's brave solo attacks on Morgoth's followers that eventually force him to flee into Beleriand. (3, Canto II)

* Beren's year of anguish before he and Lúthien finally dance together is first described in the “Lay”. (3, Canto III) The passing of the seasons seems to have been inspired by Tolkien's translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. (5)

* Although it isn't made explicit that Daeron is no longer Lúthien's brother, his role now appears to be more that of jealous lover. Either way, he vows to play no more when he espies Beren and Lúthien, and when Thingol asks for the reason of his silence, Daeron betrays the lovers. Lúthien demands an oath that Beren will not be harmed, and when Thingol sends armed men to bring Beren before his throne, Lúthien forestalls them. Thingol is now hostile towards Beren from the start. Much of the dialogue can be found almost in its final form. (3, Canto IV)

* The “Lay of Leithian” repeats the description of Lúthien's magic from “The Tale of Tinúviel”. Interestingly, although Daeron may now have more interest in keeping Lúthien from following Beren, he still says nothing to Thingol when Lúthien asks a loom of him and openly tells him that she intends to weave on it 'A marvellous thread, and wind therein/ a potent magic, and a spell/ I will weave within my web that hell/ nor all the powers of Dread shall break.' (3, Canto V)

* Canto VI introduces the Nargothrond subplot, including Curufin's and Celegorm's succesful rebellion and Orodreth's succession of Felagund. It also gives a brief summary of Fëanor's creation and loss of the Silmarils, the Oath, and Maedhros' rescue from Thangorodrim. (3, Canto VI) Later, there is a detailed account of Fingolfin's last stand. (3, Canto XII) Working on “The Lay of Leithian” seems to have formed and fixed Tolkien's ideas about the history of the First Age for good.

* The Tevildo, Prince of Cats storyline is entirely replaced by the encounter of Beren, Felagund and their ten companions with the wizard Thû (Sauron), including the duel of songs, the captivity on the Wizard's Isle (Tol-in-Gaurhoth) and the werewolves that devour the companions one by one. (3, Canto VII) Felagund sacrifices himself to save Beren and Lúthien sings down Thû's fortress. Even Huan's fight with the shapeshifting Thû is already exactly as it is in the final version. (3, Canto IX)

* Huan is now in Celegorm's service, responsible for Lúthien's captivity in Nargothrond. The “Lay of Leithian” explicitly states that the people of Nargothrond know about her imprisonment and even about Felagund's dire straits, but although Orodreth apparently tries to speak out against the sons of Fëanor and tries to win supporters to rescue his brother, “his counsel no man heard”. Huan becomes Lúthien's friend, guards her from Celegorm, and eventually brings her her cloak and helps her escape. He can now speak only thrice before his death, and his fate is “decreed and known to all” that he will die at the fangs of the mightiest wolf ever to be whelped. (3, Canto VIII)

* Canto X introduces the encounter with the sons of Fëanor, and Beren's secret departure. (3, Canto X) Huan and Lúthien catch up with him when he sings his song of farewell. Beren no longer disguises himself as a cat, but as a werewolf. Lúthien is no longer merely “like a bat” as in the “Tale of Tinúviel”, but indeed dresses in the skin of a dead, as yet unnamed bat. (3, Canto XI) Lúthien calls herself Thuringwethil when Morgoth demands her name. (3, Canto XII).

* Carcharoth has now been bred exclusively to kill Huan. (3, Canto XII)

* Unlike in other versions, Morgoth makes pretty clear that he has sexual intentions, although he talks only about flowers, kisses and stings. (3, Canto XII)

* Beren's knife – now taken from Curufin – no longer snaps at the first Silmaril, but only when Beren unrightfully attempts to take a second. (3, Canto XIII)

* The “Lay of Leithian” ends with Carcharoth biting off Beren's hand with the Silmaril. (3, Canto XIV) The events beyond that point only exist in extremely brief synopses. Beren and Lúthien here escape towards to the Shadowy Mountains, where they get lost. Huan finds them and leads them back to Doriath. The closing synopsis suggests that Huan was supposed to return from the dead with Beren and Lúthien. (3, The Unwritten Cantos)

~ After the success of The Hobbit in 1937, Tolkien recommenced “The Lay of Leithian”, trying to make it fit for publication. There are virtually no changes to the story as such, but some names are changed or introduced, such as Nan Elmoth, Menegroth, Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Sauron. (6) The rewritten “Lay of Leithian” (Version C and D) still breaks off immediately after Beren and Lúthien attained a Silmaril so it is unclear whether Tolkien had any new ideas about the closing events of the chapters.

~ The material in “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion” is intermittent between the different versions of the Lays. An interesting note is that Lúthien did not die in order to retrieve Beren from Mandos-- the text says that it’s uncertain how he came back: either Lúthien crossed the Grinding Ice (with Melian’s help) or Mandos himself released Beren when he heard his story. But Mandos requires that Lúthien become mortal as payment. Another major difference is that Celegorm discovers Felagund and Beren’s mission only after they have set out and offers redress for Huan’s actions. (7)

~ For the most part, the material in “The Quenta” is a compression of the Lay of Leithian. However, there is a divergence in narrative, likely owing to this section of “The Quenta” being written before it was covered in the Lay, in which Huan retrieves the disguises before the three of them set off together for Angband. Following this point, there are minor differences: that Lúthien names herself rather than pretending to be Thuringwethil, that Beren does not need to be awoken but instead casts off his disguise when Morgoth falls, the addition of the eagles rescuing them, and some of the material agrees with earlier synopses of Lays rather than later ones. It is explicitely stated that Lúthien's actions against Morgoth are accounted as great as Fingolfin's duel. Ossiriand becomes their final living place. (8)

~ The material in both the earlier and later “Annals of Beleriand” are merely brief summaries. In the later “Annals” however, Felagund is slain by Draugluin who is then killed by Huan, something that appears nowhere else. (9, 10)

~ The text in the published Silmarillion is based primarily on material from the multiple “Quenta Silmarillion” drafts, which varied in length and completeness, all of which were based on The Lay of Leithian. Tolkien abandoned the first text because it was too long and would unbalance the narrative (it reached 4000 words where Finrod gave Orodreth his crown, and had not included Lúthien’s escape from the treehouse). This text is one of the sources for The Silmarillion. The rest of the chapter comes from a more compressed but complete version of the story. One of the most important changes Tolkien made in these drafts was the appearance of Lúthien and Beren’s choice-- first that they live together in Valinor until the end of the world (though Beren follows Men’s final fate) or that they return to Middle-earth (both as mortals). This soon changes to Lúthien’s choice alone, and of the form in The Silmarillion. Furthermore, there are many editorial changes to this material-- some from later sources (the “Grey Annals” and the rewritten Lay), some to bring in agreement with either material from other parts of the Silmarillion or to LotR, and the addition of the snippet from the Lay about the duel between Sauron and Finrod. (11) The only significant change to this material in the post-LotR timeframe is a scribbled marginal note “Númenor” instead of “Noldor” for the in-universe origin of the material, in reference to the idea in Myths Transformed that The Silmarillion comes from Númenorean tradition. (12)

~ The rest of the material in the published Silmarillion is found in “The Grey Annals,” including Gorlim’s capture and betrayal, Beren’s passing through Melian’s Girdle, Daeron betraying Beren to Thingol, the reference to Finrod’s oath, and Beren slinking in wolf’s form beneath Morgoth’s throne. However, the material in “The Grey Annals” is mainly a summary with little new material. (13) In one of the two versions of this story in “The Grey Annals,” it’s explicitly stated that the joining of Men and Elves via Beren and Lúthien is part of Eru’s plan. (13, §185) In a new idea, Finrod warns Celegorm that neither he nor his brothers will permanently regain a Silmaril. (13, §194)

~ While there are several letters that reference the story, they are either one line summaries (generally something like “Silmaril recaptured”) or references to their descendants as “children of Beren and/or Lúthien.” Letter 131 has the longest reference, and it deals primarily with authorial motive and how half-Elves came about. (14)


Food for Thought

~ Fandom seems to be in (at least) two minds about this chapter. Some think that Beren and Lúthien are mere self-inserts with little narrative value of their own, and consider Lúthien little more than a “Mary-Sue” and an over-hyped nurse. Others value the love Tolkien put into this particular storyline, and the fact that Beren and Lúthien through their love accomplish what all the armies of the Noldor cannot do. What do you think?

~ Do you regret or applaud the loss of the “Prince of Cats” storyline?

~ Do you think it was wise of Felagund to announce in public (especially in front of Celegorm and Curufin) that he was going to help Beren get a Silmaril, rather than leave in secret? Why do you think he did it?

~ Why do you think Lúthien turns to Daeron for help, when he has already betrayed her and Beren earlier?

~ Despite Thingol’s known dislike for the Fëanorians, why do you think Celegorm thought his suit would work?

~ Why do you think Beren kept leaving Lúthien behind despite her explicit wishes?

~ Do the many supernatural elements of this chapter (the Girdle of Melian, which Beren passes through “aided by fate”; Felagund's craft by which he and his companions are made to look like Orcs, and his duel with Sauron; Lúthien's enchantments and healing powers; Sauron's shape-shifting; the speaking hound etc.) strain your suspension of disbelief, or does it work fine for you? Do you feel that there is more magic in this chapter than in other parts of the Silmarillion?

~ Is the ability to sing spells common among the Eldar or is it limited to a few people?

~ Do you think that Tolkien overuses the “Eagles to the rescue” plotline a little?

~ Why do you think Tolkien keeps making a point about the abilities of a few underestimated people to perform successful quests that armies could not hope to accomplish? (There’s Beren and Lúthien; Frodo, Sam, and Gollum; and possibly Bilbo.)


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 2. “The Tale of Tinúviel”, The Tale of Tinúviel.
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 2. “The Tale of Tinúviel”, The second version of the Tale of Tinúviel.
(3) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of Leithian. The Gest of Beren and Lúthien.”
(4) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of the Children of Húrin”, The Second Version of The Children of Húrin.
(5) J.R.R. Tolkien and E.V.Gordon (eds). Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1967 (1925). Passus II.
(6) The Lays of Beleriand. “The Lay of Leithian Recommenced”.
(7) The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’, 10 and Commentary
(8) The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta, 10 and Commentary
(9) The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Earliest Annals of Beleriand, Annal 163-4
(10) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, Annals 263-4, 264, and 265
(11) The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion, 12-15 Of Beren and Tinúviel
(12) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The Last Chapters
(13) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §175-211, 214 and Commentary
(14) The Letters of JRR Tolkien, especially #131


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad” is due September 21.

Comments

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I admit that a lot of my thinking on this has been influenced by Philosopher-At-Large's magnum opus "The Leithian Script", which I have already recommended in the fanworks post. Her characterisations, particularly, have influenced everything that I have ever written on Valinor, the Elves and the Valar.

As far as I am concerned, Luthien is one of the great action heroines, and a couple of decades ago would certainly have been played by Michelle Yeoh in the 180-episode wuxia serial version.

The interesting thing about the Lay though is how much of it is accidental escalation of events. Among Tolkien's heroes and heroines, Luthien is most like the Bagginses, neither of whom intended to go off and do hugely significant things. Bilbo thought that he was just going to have an adventure, and Frodo was running away from danger. There's no indication that, before Luthien was forced into action by Thingol's idiotic and unethical behaviour, she had any interest in adventure outside Doriath at all. Everything from the destruction of Tol Sirion onwards was basically her attempting to get home with Beren in one piece in face of escalating obstacles. Too bad for everything that got in her way.

As for Finrod and his problems in Nargothrond, he was the King. Kings can't just disappear on Doomed quests without telling their subjects.

Based on the effect that Luthien had on everyone, including deities, it seems clear that she was one of those seriously charismatic people, quite apart from her looks and political/magical power, so possibly Celegorm was genuinely obsessed with her. On the other hand, she was also the heir of Doriath, which probably played a rather large part in his thinking as well, especially since he had just sent King Thingol's grand-nephew treacherously off to die and was in the process of usurping his kingdom. The letter to Thingol was just serious tactlessness and by itself shows beyond doubt that Celegorm's talents did not extend to ruling.

I think that Beren's actions are straightforwardly attributable to his (quite accurate) belief that he was going to die on the quest. He didn't want to drag Luthien down with him, since he loved her. I think it is reasonable that he did not realise how capable she was, because I am not sure that she entirely did either, at that stage. But it must have been clear to her that if Beren went alone he would quite definitely die, whereas if she (and Huan) went with him, (a) there might be a very small chance that they might at least survive, if not succeed in the quest, and (b) they would at the very worst die together.

[independence1776]

Too bad for everything that got in her way.

One of the things I like best about this chapter is the fact that Lúthien refuses to take no for an answer. She basically orders the universe around to get the result she wants. Better to have Beren for a short while, even though it requires changing her life utterly but in a way she clearly finds acceptable, than to not have him at all.

But it must have been clear to her that if Beren went alone he would quite definitely die, whereas if she (and Huan) went with him, (a) there might be a very small chance that they might at least survive, if not succeed in the quest, and (b) they would at the very worst die together.

Yeah, Lúthien does seem to be the more pragmatic one here, doesn't she?

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

they would at the very worst die together.
I disagree. I think it is made very clear that death is not the worst thing that could happen to them.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Nonetheless, having it happen to both of them together might well have seemed a better deal to Luthien than letting Beren go off on his own and suffer it by himself.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think that Lúthien MarySúviel is, yes, utterly a Mary Sue - but she's so over-the-top about it that it's glorious rather than sad. She's also quite definitely the heroine of this chapter, while Beren is basically her trusty sidekick and love interest whom she needs to rescue whenever he gets into trouble. (Lúthien, on the other hand, rescues herself.)

Something that struck me is that Lúthien levels the walls and towers of Sauron's fortress by the power of her voice; and Galadriel does the same to Dol Guldur at the end of the Third Age. Did Galadriel learn that technique from Lúthien while she lived in Doriath?

Also, this:

http://www.mdd-marketing.co.uk/files/LotR/homecv-104.jpg

[independence1776]

but she's so over-the-top about it that it's glorious rather than sad.

Just goes to show that any plotline or characterization choice can be done well in the right hands. :)

She's also quite definitely the heroine of this chapter, while Beren is basically her trusty sidekick and love interest whom she needs to rescue whenever he gets into trouble.

I see it this way, too, to the point where the reverse doesn't make any sense to me. (Despite Tolkien clearly seeing it that way. Yes, Beren got the Silmaril off the crown-- but he would never have been able to do that without Lúthien.)

Did Galadriel learn that technique from Lúthien while she lived in Doriath?

Probably. And they both likely learned it from Melian.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Plus she is the daughter of a Maia, one of the makers of the world (and one with affinities to Yavanna!), so she can be considered to be at least half really a force of nature.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Precisely. I really worry a lot less about Lúthien's superpowers than I wonder about Felagund's speshul abilities. Neither Finarfin nor Eärwen are famous for any spectacular glamours, are they? Where did Finrod (and to a lesser extent, Galadriel) get it?
(I know, I know - externally, this makes perfect sense because by the time he wrote Leithian, Tolkien was still much inspired by the traditional fairytale in which any elvenking would probably have glamorous powers, and he wasn't even sure where this Finrod guy came from. And then later, he either couldn't or didn't want to change stuff around. But in-universe, it is not particularly logical.)

I think it's funny that some people are annoyed by Lúthien's super-powers, yet at the same time enjoy Felagund's magic duel with Sauron. If this were Tumblr, I'd probably write an angry feminist essay about it. ;)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Their Vanyar ancestry? I do see the Vanyar as the kind of mighty sages and martial artists who feature commonly in wuxia films. They stay on the Mountain and only come down for when world-shattering power is needed. Finarfin never manifested superpowers because he never needed to in Valinor.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Heh! Fair enough. Nonetheless, I think Lúthien's superpowers are at least as justified as Finrod's!

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

I think that Luthien's powers are only to be expected considering her ancestry, even if there doesn't seem to be explicit awareness of how far she is able to go (maybe Melian is an exception but she doesn't say). Finrod's power of camouflage, on the other hand, not so sure despite his Vanyarin blood. About his singing skills, that's more in keeping: he started his connection with men singing, after all. I agree that probably Tolkien changed his mind about elven skills over the years and never went back

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

LOTR has a bit in it about elvish musicians being able to make people see what they are singing about, so it's at least a possibility that some stronger elves can do more with the ability.

Also, there is no real information about what First Age orcs looked like. Maybe Finrod just had exceptionally fine make-up artists.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Also, there is no real information about what First Age orcs looked like. Maybe Finrod just had exceptionally fine make-up artists.

Good point! There isn't even much information about Third Age orcs, come to think of it (aside from that really, really uncanny mention of "the least lovely Mongol types" in one the letters >_>). So yes, maybe they really just looked like severely mistreated Elves, and some mud, wax and dried blood plus a change of posture were enough to make Elves look like Orcs...

[independence1776]

I think the best piece of evidence we have points to that conclusion. From "Of the Sindar": "Whence [the Orcs] came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said." That implies to me that there while there was some difference, they were still clearly recognizeable as (somehow) related to the Eldar.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

What can I say after the chibis! LoL!

I'm on the not my favourite plotline camp. Why? Probably because Luthien who is beautiful, smart, obviously charismatic spends milennia dancing in Neldoreth waiting for ... Beren? He's ok but probably, she falls for him because it's the first exciting thing that happened in ages. Compared with Aredhel (*loves*) who is also beautiful, smart and charismatic and wants to *do* things and gets treated atrociously by Tolkien! Also the overabundance of supernatural elements doesn't help and not because I'm not fond of dragons and magic jewels but if Finrod could make himself and his mates look like orcs, why didn't he do it before? I think Huan is just as awsome barking and the hair is too Rapunzel-like.

the “Prince of Cats” storyline: the story is long and complicated enough without cats

I love the duel of songs and it always strikes me that Finrod seems to be keeping even with Sauron until Alqualonde gets mentioned and that's the defining blow: the Kinslaying as the Noldor "original sin" which taints every one of them, even a one-fourth Noldor who didn't take part?

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I thought of it as Luthien living peacefully and happily in Doriath, going about her own business, which I suspect involved a lot of helping her mother maintain the Girdle. Considering the things she could do with song (and in one of the earlier versions, with dance), I don't think that the singing and dancing was just that, any more than Arwen's embroidery on the banner she gave to Aragorn was just embroidery. Beren was totally unexpected, and not something that she was particularly looking for.

The name Luthien means "enchantress", and I took it as having been meant literally.

[independence1776]

if Finrod could make himself and his mates look like orcs, why didn't he do it before?

Maybe it could only be done with small groups of people? Hiding an entire army like that seems a recipe for exhaustion at best. But the magical stuff popping up here and rarely anywhere else prompted the magic questions; trying to decide what's common and what's not is… difficult.

I love the duel of songs and it always strikes me that Finrod seems to be keeping even with Sauron until Alqualonde gets mentioned and that's the defining blow: the Kinslaying as the Noldor "original sin" which taints every one of them, even a one-fourth Noldor who didn't take part?

The duel is one of my favorite passages in the entire book (the other's the Doom of Mandos). I'm not sure I'd call it "original sin"-- though it's an apt comparison considering that it affects everything from then on out-- but it seems to me to be something so horrible that there is no defense for it. And while Finrod wasn't involved, he's related to (and friends with) those who were, which is another personal element of horror for him.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think that the reference to Alqualonde hit Finrod so hard because he cared about it, and felt guilty and terrible, even though he wasn't actually guilty of anything at all. Possibly because he actually had an ethical sense, unlike some of his relatives. It might even have been worse for him because he wasn't guilty; if he had been guilty, he would have had some centuries to develop a nice, tough, armour-coating of self-justification. If Sauron had tried that gambit on Feanor, or any of his sons, for instance, I doubt if it would have had anything like the same effect. One of those little ironies.

[independence1776]

Well, that depends on how you characterize the Fëanorians. I think that all of them did have ethics (some more than others), so it could very well have affected them in similar ways.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I'd say that by the time of these events, Celegorm and Curufin were quite definitely ethically challenged. But I think that all of them would have had both the time and the incentive to build up mental defences on the subject of the Kinslaying, as a necessary matter of psychological survival.

Also, at this stage they would only have had to deal with Alqualonde, which was slightly less indefensible than the later Kinslayings of Doriath and Sirion, which were planned open-eyed and in cold blood, in full knowledge of what they were doing and the moral weight of their actions.

[independence1776]

I never said their crimes were defensible; just that they had ethics. One can be a murderer and thief (of the ships) without condoning other criminal actions. (Maedhros at least was reluctant before Sirion and it says specifically that Celegorm stirred up his brothers to attack Doriath, which to me also suggests reluctance prior to that.)

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

I've just paid close attention to Oloriel's icon (a bigger screen really): *that's* Luthien for sure! Excellent!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Hah! It's actually Morgana from the (awful in an entertaining way) Merlin series, but indeed, when I saw this picture, all I could think of is LÚTHIEN. ABSOLUTELY LÚTHIEN. So glad you agree. ^^

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The episode with Sauron is also a good lesson in the dangers of self-indulgence. If Sauron had just killed Finrod and the others at once, most of the rest of the history of Middle-earth would not have happened. Luthien would have gone home in grief, though possibly after destroying the castle first. Thingol might then have invaded Nargothrond to get rid of Celegorm and Curufin and avenge both Finrod's death and Luthien's kidnapping, but the Silmaril would have stayed in Angband.

By indulging himself with torture, (so that Beren was still alive when Luthien arrived), and later with vanity (in coming out to fight Huan, thus making himself vulnerable to him and Luthien), Sauron set the whole rest of the story in motion. including his own eventual defeat far in the future at the hands of Beren and Luthien's descendants.

[hhimring]

At least theoretically, Sauron is supposed to be trying to find out their identities and their plans, not just torturing them for fun.
Mind you--you'd think he would have had Finrod's identity all figured out already after the song duel.
(A clue that powerful magical songs were after all more common than you'd think?)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Well, he would have figured out that Finrod was one of the Noldor, and possibly (wrongly) a Kinslayer. He might not have got the fine detail. After all, he would not have been expecting the King of Nargothrond to be sneaking about in disguise with a minimal escort.

Actually the idea of powerful magical songs seems quite appropriate, since the entirety of Tolkien's universe was created by one in the first place. So naturally singing would be a Significant Activity in-world.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Also I think it was said somewhere in LOTR that elvish musicians can make their audience see whatever they're singing about. So magic songs are something that do exist,

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

http://timelapsedance.com/

See the images of the dancer Jody Sperling, who is inspired by the Art Nouveau-era dancer Loie Fuller. This is very much how I imagine Luthien dancing.

[hhimring]

~ Why do you think Tolkien keeps making a point about the abilities of a few underestimated people to perform successful quests that armies could not hope to accomplish? (There’s Beren and Lúthien; Frodo, Sam, and Gollum; and possibly Bilbo.)

The thing is that, with regard to that trope, Tolkien rather tries to have his cake and eat it, as far as Beren and Luthien are concerned.

Underestimated?
After he piles all that hype on Beren (a price on his head no lower than on Fingon's, fame reaching all the way to Doriath, although there doesn't even seem to be anyone around except orcs and Sauron to spread his fame, etc.)!
And all the hype piled on Luthien--most important person *eva*!

Who really underestimates them? Basically, just those who badly want to, for their own agenda.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think they were underestimated in-story for legitimate reasons. Beren is famous basically as a solo guerilla (and yes, as a figure of fear among the orcs), fighting orcs and minor monsters. Luthien is the unknown-outside-Doriath princess who has never been famous for any exploit whatsoever. So the two of them setting outby themselves to beard Morgoth himself in his impregnable fortress would naturally be considered a suicide mission by everyone, including themselves (and Thingol explicitly designed it as such for Beren). They did succeed against quite extraordinary odds and with some major failures along the way (Finrod's death, Beren's death), but it wouldn't have been obvious while it was happening. Luthien's importance is clear only afterwards in terms of the Silmaril, and the role of her descendants in the long battle against Sauron.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The thing is that, with regard to that trope, Tolkien rather tries to have his cake and eat it, as far as Beren and Luthien are concerned.

Well, they're still just two lonely people, no matter what their individual powers. ;)

But you're right, "underestimated" is perhaps the wrong word. They're more like Fingon (rescuing Maedhros all by his onesies) or Isildur (getting the last fruit of the White Tree in a lone feat of daring) than like the Hobbits - powerful individuals who nonetheless manage to achieve something that's thought impossible.
(The funny thing is, of course, that it's not at all astonishing that individuals can manage what armies can't. Armies - or even small companies of Elves disguised as Orcs - aren't inconspicuous, and are perceived as potential threats. But individuals pass under the radar, or are, well, underestimated...)

[hhimring]

For me, as far as the main emotional content that Tolkien apparently wants to convey about Beren and Luthien goes, the most effective version is the short one that Aragorn sings in the Lord of the Rings.
In the longer versions, I keep getting distracted by other things and issues, so that the intended emotional impact gets dissipated--which does not mean that there aren't many things in the Silmarillion chapter that I value.
For example, I start caring more about Finrod's death than Luthien and Beren's reunion.

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

Did Tolkien ever say anything about the internal history of the Lay of Leithian?

[independence1776]

I don't know! A quick look through the introductory material for both the original and the recommenced Lay doesn't mention anything, nor do the titles for the poem. (The Quenta Silmarillion manuscript includes the in-universe author on its title page.) Even the song in The Fellowship of the Ring doesn't have an author.

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help.

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

Maybe he didn't. I haven't found anything either. I know the Narn was supposed to be written by a mortal poet at the Havens of Sirion. But I've been wondering about the Lay of Leithian-- who would have written such a work? Who was the intended audience? Here is one utterly unhelpful clue: I find it curious that Barahir's companions are all named, but Finrod's are not, except for one. Was this because it was written for a mortal audience who had more interest in memorializing Barahir's company, or was it for elves, to whom Finrod's companions were already household names?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Well, according to the Book of Lost Tales, it is in the "great books", and all the children (in Valinor!) learn it. Or that's what Vëannë, the maiden from whom Eriol learns the tale, says. But just who wrote it in the "great books" isn't said.

Are Barahir's companions all named? I only recall Barahir, Beren, and Gorlim. Aren't the others as unnamed as Felagund's companions (save Edrahil)?

[parmalokwen.livejournal.com]

"Twelve men beside him (Barahir) still there went,
still faithful when all hope was spent.
Their names are yet in elven-song
remembered, though the years are long
since doughty Dagnir and Ragnor,
Radhruin, Dairuin and Gildor,
Gorlim Unhappy, and Urthel,
and Arthad and Hathaldir fell;
since the black shaft with venomed wound
took Belegund and Baragund,
the mighty sons of Bregolas;
since he whose doom and deeds surpass
all tales of Men was laid on bier,
fair Beren son of Barahir."
-LL canto 2

The names also appear in the published Silmarillion.

At this point I think "their names are yet in elven-song remembered" suggests that the Lay as begun in HoME 3 is meant to be a mortal composition informed by previous elven ones, which makes it basically both possibilities at once. As to who the original elven composer was, the possibilities are endless, or nearly so. I think we can safely rule out the sons of Feanor and their people.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*facepalms* Would you believe that I completely forgot about this bit when I only read it a couple of weeks ago? Thanks for the quote.

Anyway, I like both/ all of your interpretations. Yes, I suspect even Maglor wouldn't be happy to sing this one. And Daeron we're told, is lost. Other than that, pretty much anyone could have wanted to compose this one!

[independence1776]

It has to have come from Elves originally, due to "no mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir" in "Of the Fifth Battle" (which makes me wonder about Lúthien speaking to one), plus Men simply not having the details that could only come from someone involved. The one in LotR is explicitly Elvish in origin. But that doesn't mean the Lay is (though I assume so).