Thoughts on elven growth rates

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

This ia a quick piece of essay work, taking a look at what Tolkien may have meant when he wrote that elves too around 50 years to mature, and how that can be related to the dates in Annals of Aman.  Other thoughts are welcome!

 On elven growth rates and the Annals of Aman

According to the Laws and Customs of the Eldar elves become fully grown around the age of fifty, although growth rates vary and some can take up to a hundred years to reach full growth.

 

The question is: did Tolkien mean years of the Sun, or years of Aman? In the Annals of Aman, which he was apparently working on at the same time or a little earlier, Tolkien stresses several times that one year of Aman is loosely equivalent to ten years of the Sun, so if Tolkien was talking about years of Aman in the LACE elves would take around 500 years to become fully grown. 

 

The passage in question sounds as if he is talking about years of the Sun, since it is specifically comparing elven growth rates to mortal ones, but a comparison with other texts suggests otherwise. [Actually I think the most likely answer is that when he wrote the LACE Tolkien had temporarily forgotten that Aman years were different from Sun years – but that’s no fun!]

 

It is said in the LACE that elves commonly married around the age of fifty, and according to AA Finarfin married at the age of exactly fifty Aman years. That’s not conclusive of course, Finarfin could simply have married late, but there is further evidence in some of the statements about Feanor. In a text on Finwe and Miriel which is closely related to the LACE [Morgoth’s Ring p239 in my edition] we are told that Feanor “was wellnigh fullgrown ere Nolofinwe [Fingolfin] was born”. Almost fullgrown, but not quite. Now according to the AA Feanor was older than Fingolfin by twenty-one years of Aman, approximately 210 years of the Sun, which means he was either an exceptionally quick developer (if elves on average took 500 of our years to grow up) or an exceptionally slow one (if they took 50 years). And we are in fact told that Feanor “grew swiftly”. [MR p185] Therefore he was a quick developer. Therefore the statement in LACE must mean years of Aman, since otherwise Feanor would have had time to reach full growth four times over by the time Fingolfin was born.

 

So far so good, but it doesn’t fit with the story of Maeglin. Maeglin was not quite 200 when Gondolin fell, but clearly he was fully adult and had been for some time. So elves in Middle-earth in the First Age can’t take 500 years to reach full growth.* And yet they should.

 

How do we reconcile this? I believe that (other than admitting that Tolkien contradicted himself hopelessly) there’s only one way. Elves must grow faster in Middle-earth than in Valinor, or at least than they did in Valinor in the ages of the Trees. And there is actually a little evidence that can be used to support that. In an earlier text Tolkien says “after the rising of the Sun and Moon… growth and change were swift for all living things, most swift outside Valinor, and most swift of all in the first years of the Sun.” [Lost Road p.177]

 

I suggest that in terms of elven growth one year of Aman in Valinor was equivalent to one year of the Sun in Middle-earth. An elf born in Valinor in the ages of the Trees would take on average fifty years of Aman to reach full-growth, an elf born in Middle-earth in the First Age would take fifty years of the Sun. So Feanor probably took about four times as long to reach maturity as Maeglin, even though, by Aman standards, he grew fast. 

 

(One wonders just how the elves calculated the rate of Sun years to Aman years, as we never hear of time pieces in Middle-earth. I rather suspect the calculations, however arrived at, were probably made in Tol Eressea – where there were probably more and more accurate records of Aman – after the end of the First Age. The Exiles probably had to make do with much looser estimates).

 

That seems the best answer to me. Any thoughts?

 

 

 

*Dior, Elwing and Earendil appear to grow at mortal rates, but then they were all part mortal so that’s not a problem. Indeed you could make a case for Dior being fully mortal, since he was born after Luthien had opted to become a mortal herself. 

 

Comments

[tuxedo-elf.livejournal.com]

I didn't know about the length of Aman years - that's really interesting. :) It would make sense that Elves grew faster in ME - conditions were harsher and they would have needed to mature quicker, especially in the first age.

Tux

PS: As for the question of Dior as mortal or elven... that is a debate that could rage forever! :P

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

"conditions were harsher and they would have needed to mature quicker, especially in the first age. "

That's the good point!

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Good point about the conditions - except in Doiath maybe. Thinking about it Luthien didn't sem to mature that fast, but then she's hardly your typical elf so who knows. (Dior - well who knows there either!)

[tehta.livejournal.com]

That makes a lot of sense to me, and, in fact, I have seen something similar suggested on a Polish Tolkien board.

(And I've always thought that LaCE had to mean sun years, because it seems to be written from a rather human Elf-explaining perspective. I've also sort of thought that Elves in Aman would pay less attention to the passage of time, anyway: I mean, they'd write down important events, but might pay more attention to how old someone seemed than to how old they were... But this is of course just one silly interpretation.)

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

And I'm going to dig out the info about years form there ;)

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

I agree the LACE seems to be explaing elves to mortals but it's a very confusing document in a lot of ways. And it makes sense the Aman Elves would see less need to pay attention to time - why bother when you have literally all the time in the world? Although perhaps that tendency developed more and more as the ages passed until nothing was happening in Valinor at all?

(Much enjoyment of Hildor the sleazy elf by the way)

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have some issues with LaCE myself, and its more common interpretations. (E.g., the paragraph about raped Elves dying and Elves being able to see marriage in each other's eyes seems to have existed only in an early draft and been struck out later...)

Hildor has even more issues with it, of course. I am glad you enjoyed him.

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

First of all, I am so glad that this bothers someone else besides me!

Personally, I have to think of "50 years for Elven maturation" to mean Years of the Sun. Otherwise, Elven childhood is so short that it's unbelievable. 500 years seems much more reasonable. Thus, I took "50 years" to mean Tree Years, because it fit my mental image better, or else just conveniently and shamelessly disregarded that bit of LaCE.

I suggest that in terms of elven growth one year of Aman in Valinor was equivalent to one year of the Sun in Middle-earth.

I like that theory a lot. Thanks!

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Glad it was helpful :) I found it hard trying to get a clear picture of chronolgy in the Aman period (for example it's surprising how close in age Feanor and Fingolfin are)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I just realized that the first part of my reply made hardly any sense. Sorry!

At any rate, it was helpful! I also found (and still find) it hard to get a clear picture of things. The example of Feanor & Fingolfin being close in age makes sense to me, just because then the interactions between the two of them make more sense. (Part of this I'm sure is that my own brother and I are close in age, but since I don't have any siblings that are much younger, I can't say that the sibling rivalry issue would be more or less pronounced. I just know that between me and my brother, it's quite a big issue.)

I'm going to bookmark this so that I can come back to it when I start thinking too hard about time differences!

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

Info from the Appendix D to the LotR: yén in Quenya in reality meant 144 years of sun.
So more than 100 to be precise.

In the essay 'Aman' in Morgoth's Ring (starts at p. 424):

"On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in loar upon loar under the wheeling Sun."

Hmmm. Arwen was also 2000 something when she has married Aragorn? Anyway it doesn't sound well comparted to the 300 years of peace while the siege of Angband, when so many elves were born. They supposed to be mature warriors at Nirnaeth time, not just growing kids. It looks like the passage about Maeglin is older than this conception, too.
I guess if Tolkien would live long enough he would cut off the yén's length to keep Beleriand history in one piece or changed the dates in the whole I Age of Sun to make them proper. For the real difference came with the appearance of Sun, when time in ME start flowing fast, while it was still the same slow in Aman. There was no difference before in the Ages of Stars and Trees.

Thank you for the specific dates!


My theory is that the time in Aman flows differently in a subjective experience when there is a comparison to ME. Like the time in Lórien. It would be the same for en elf to spend 5 years in Aman and in ME, but the difference would be seen if we compare two elves - one waiting for the other who went to Aman for 5 years. It would take over 500 for the one waiting. Like with astronauts leaving Earth who stay in a different time; there was an example with two brothers - one of them was an astronaut, I can't recall it now. The brother who left Earth was let's say 5 years older while arriving, the one staying on Earth was already an old men.
Anyway the elf in ME would feel the dying which is filling the mortal realms and never feel there comfortable. One of reasons to create the rings of power - to slow the time.

If I am out of topic, sorry! I should not post at dawning if I was not sleeping, yet ;)

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

I think you're right Tolkien would have extended the whole of the First Age chronology (is there a quote somewhere about his intending the First Age to be longer than the Second or Third or am I making that up?). We can only guess how that would have turned out. As far as I've seen the LACE/Annals of Aman time theory was the only one he developed enough to work with, but it probably wouldn't have been his last word.

I think you're theory about time flowing differently inj M-e compared to Am,an is probably right, although with the qualifier that it might not have been that way in the ages of the Trees.

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

"Indeed you could make a case for Dior being fully mortal, since he was born after Luthien had opted to become a mortal herself. "

I guess only Mandos knows it; or had to face it when Dior appeared before his face ;)

There was a nice discussion on it in a few places, but I don't remember the conclusions. For sure he thought of him as an elf, so we may think he did an unconscious choice before it was technically given to half-elves.

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

I admit the line about Dior was a throw away! It did strike me he appeared to have a mortal chronology - getting married, having three kids, becoming King of Doriath and getting killed in battle, all before the age of forty. Fast work even by the standards of the Dunedain, *very* fast for an elf! Of course that might be another thing Tolkien would have revised...

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! My mind is not very good with numbers, so while I was reading the comments, maybe a table with the numbers would make the comparision more visual :)

But yes it makes a lot of sense, so thank you.

As for Maeglin, I think it went for him a lot swifter. Aman was not as much touched or influenced by the shadow and Morgoth than those on Beleriand (Arda marred). I believe this also goes nicely with the fact that on ME bodies that died were subjected to a fast decay.. on Aman they were not (Finwe was an exception)

*Dior, Elwing and Earendil appear to grow at mortal rates, but then they were all part mortal so that’s not a problem. Indeed you could make a case for Dior being fully mortal, since he was born after Luthien had opted to become a mortal herself.

Yes. I think most forget that before Earendil pleaded for the two kindreds, any child coming from a man/elf union were mortal as Manwe declared that (HOME 5, got the quote if you want to). But as I read recently, Luthien and Beren were granted a longer life, so that could apply to Dior too. So once Manwe spoke of the choice of the Peredhil (actually creating a new kinda thing), Elrond and his line could choose (because Elros said nah thanks), before that, your kid was simply mortal, no matter how much elven blood.

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

maybe a table with the numbers would make the comparision more visual :)

Probably it would - if I could format one...


Yes. I think most forget that before Earendil pleaded for the two kindreds, any child coming from a man/elf union were mortal as Manwe declared that (HOME 5, got the quote if you want to). But as I read recently, Luthien and Beren were granted a longer life, so that could apply to Dior too. So once Manwe spoke of the choice of the Peredhil (actually creating a new kinda thing), Elrond and his line could choose (because Elros said nah thanks), before that, your kid was simply mortal, no matter how much elven blood.

As I said above, Dior seems to live his life at an ordinary mortal rate. But thinking about it, would he *know* if he were ordinary mortal, long-lived mortal, or elf? No doubt the Valar could tell him, but had they even thought about it at that point? And I can't help thinking the Maia strain would have made some kind of difference. I think this discussion could go on a looong time!

[ford-of-bruinen.livejournal.com]

Now I no longer have the Letters of JRR Tolkien (damned computer crash) but if I remember correctly this was one of the issues discussed there.

From what I could gther (if i remember everything right and I might now) there was a difference in how the years ran in Valinor and in Beleriand so that 50 years in beleriand to mature somehow eas equivalent to 50 years in tree years.

Now I still don't really manage to accept that :P so I tend to go for 50 years of the sun unless I for some reason want to use 500 *lol*

I am babbling and not really contributing much...but it is an interesting topic and is one of teh areas where I wish the man had had more time wto work out inconsistancies :)

Uli

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's a headache - but a think a difference in time flow between Aman and M-e makes a lot of sense, although perhaps not in the ages of the Trees...

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I did some research on this a while back, (Here: http://fanged-geranium.livejournal.com/18539.html)and I found that Tolkien had two completely separate ideas on Elvish aging: 1) that they take 50 sun-years to grow up and 2) that they take 3000 sun-years to grow up; however the second only applies to his altered mythology (world starts off round, sun exists before trees).

I like your idea about growth being slowed down in Valinor to one Original-style Valian year, since it nicely unites Tolkien's two mythologies. Maybe there's something in the water!

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

I was kind of ignoring the later theory since he never developed it enough to build a decent chronology (also LACE and AA were enough of a headache!)

Maybe there *is* something in the water (or the Valar put something in after the Noldor rebellion...)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

He would have needed to do a (another!) complete re-write of the Silm!

or the Valar put something in after the Noldor rebellion...

There's definitely a fic in that!

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

My brain is now trying to write a cracked-out version of the first episode of Blakes 7... Unfortunately I'm afraid it would have to be Feanor as the amnesiac ex-resistance leader, and I can't work up much enthusiasm for Feanor.