Silmarillion Writers&#39; Guild

To borrow Pande's metaphor from the previous post, I don't really have a horse in this race...though I should. I guess I haven't yet had a horse good enough for the derby.

As for the precise combination of grief, loyalty, injustice, magic, etc., I haven't found the right mix. Surely the emotions involved cannot be boiled down to one thing. However, I do think that it may well have been more hesitant than the text paints it. The Silmarillion as a historical text has a decidedly anti-Fëanorian slant, and saying, "His seven sons looked at each other uncertainly, conferred amongst themselves for awhile, and finally swore their father's oath, though some voices were stronger than others,"* is far more sympathetic to the supposed-to-be antagonists than "leapt straightaway". The latter leads the reader much more strongly to the invisible author's own viewpoint of the Fëanorians being Bad Guys. Historical bias ftw?

^{*Not that it necessarily happened like that either.}

There's also the possibility that they didn't truly understand the magnitude of the Oath at the time of its swearing. In a place where murder had been heretofore unthinkable, I doubt, had someone asked the sons of Fëanor, "So, would you kill another elf? Say, a bunch of Teleri? And this is just academic -- what about your cousin Finrod?" that the answer would have been a "Yes, absolutely! Without a thought!" Morgoth had stolen the jewels and slain Finwë, it was Morgoth and his servants they'd be fighting, right? After all, they'd just announced their claim, so they may have assumed that no elf would be dumb enough to try to keep the silmarils for himself in face of such a vehement claim.

I also think there's certainly validity to the magical nature of the silmarils themselves. They inspired not only the Fëanorians but Dior and Elwing as well to make some very unwise decisions.

Anyway, as I've said I don't have a clear idea in my head here for the motivations of Fëanor's sons. Answering the question could easily be a person's life work!

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The one slightly related thing I cannot help thinking about whenever I imagine the scene is -- how did the whole swearing thing even work?

Did they say the oath simultaneously with their father? (And if so, was it all preplanned? Or is that Oath the sort of thing you can transmit telepathically, between close relatives in times of stress?)

Did they repeat the whole thing after he had said it? (In which case, wow, they have good memories, but much of the drama of the moment is lost.)

Or did they repeat it line by line, while Feanor paused dramatically? (In some ways, I like this explanation the best, at least for my own stories. One can picture them starting out all enthusiastic, then getting more and more worried as the Oath gets odder -- "findeth keepeth"? Swearing by Eru, yes, that is sure end well? And what, DARKNESS EVERLASTING? It'd be a bit like the chorus in Monty Python's Lumberjack Song... More seriously, though, I think this version would be good foreshadowing for what I think ended up happening: they swore the oath without a full understanding of what they were swearing, or at least of its full implications.)

Edited Date: 2013-05-22 12:28 am (UTC)

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zdenka

It's possible Fëanor said it and the rest of them said something like "We so swear also." Though that seems almost like too fragile a thread to bind them so strongly. It seems like they would at least have to repeat the more dramatic/problem-causing parts in order to be held responsible for it. "We so swear also, by Eru and Taniquetil (or whatever it was), and the Outer Dark upon us if we fail"?

Though in a culture which is used to reciting epic poems and such from memory, it doesn't seem impossible that they could have remembered and repeated the whole thing. And I think that could actually increase the drama. Solo followed by chorus, so to speak.

(That description made me laugh.)

Now what I always wonder, is why didn't Celebrimbor swear the oath? He wasn't born yet? He wasn't old enough? He wasn't there? His mother was quicker on the uptake and kept him out of it?

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how did the whole swearing thing even work?

That is a fantastic question! Premeditated would be delightfully disturbing, but while I could believe Fëanor pre-planned it, I am not sure he would have shared the oath he planned to make with his sons prior to his Epic Speech, lest they think about it and go, "Whoa, hang on a minute..."

Line by line puts me in mind of marriage vows, which has its own artistic appeal too...

Edited Date: 2013-05-22 01:59 am (UTC)

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I tend to assume elves have better memories than humans (Tolkien certainly implies at some points that elf memory works differently), so repeating a whole oath they've just heard by memory isn't much of a stretch.

Though I'd like to read your version!

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dawn_felagund

Continuing what

tarion_anarore already said, I think the description of the oath in the Silm reflects the anti-Feanorian bias of the narrator (Pengolodh? a lord of Turgon, so certainly not without bias!) as well as maybe having been embellished for dramatic sake.

tehta asks good questions about how the oath would work at a practical level. Do people ever just simultaneously leap to the side of a leader, even one as charismatic as Feanor, and suddenly start intoning the identical doom-filled words? "And Maedhros turned to Maglor and said, 'How about you?' and handed him the notecard with the words written on it, which Maglor had trouble reading in the torchlight but after squinting and playing the trombone for a few moments eventually managed to get it out" just lacks the same effect as "His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together." ;)

I think that probably the nuggets of truth in that scene are that there was consensus among Feanor and his sons--which is actually pretty incredible given that they agree almost nowhere else in the texts--and main ideas of what they actually swore. Add a pinch of fact, a cup of poetic license, stir briskly, and bake on 350 for 30 minutes and you have one of the most memorable scenes of the book. ;)

The Lays of Beleriand contains the first full expresssion of the oath, and it's interesting because a lot of the more dramatic elements are missing at this point:

Then his sons beside him, the seven kinsmen,
crafty Curufin, Celegorm the fair,
Damrod and Diriel and dark Cranthir,
Maglor the mighty, and Maidros tall
(the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt
than his father's flame, than Feanor's wrath;
him fate awaited with fell purpose),
these leapt with laughter their lord beside,
with linked hands there lightly took
the oath unbreakable; blood thereafter
it spilled like a sea and spent the swords
of endless armies, nor hath ended yet ... .

They seem much less threatening when they're holding hands than drawing swords "red as blood"!

As for why they all swore the oath, explaining the oath is actually one of the major reasons why I've come to believe that Feanor was a good father to his sons who inspired their loyalty, an idea that has become central to my own writing. I believe they were inclined to be loyal to him and especially compelled after Finwe's death, which likely struck them near (since they lived with him in exile); I also believe that they shared his essential worldview that valued independence and freedom over the "protection" of the Valar. After that, social influence took its hold, and social psychology has taught us that that is a pretty strong hold, even in the absence of the emotion-laden context in which the oath was sworn. I can see, for example, Feanor swearing his oath and, say, Curufin wanting to do the same; several other brothers joining, and then the social pressure combined with the intensity of emotion they were experiencing compelling the others to do the same. To one observing, their consensus was probably startling and, shaped by dramatic needs in future retellings and perhaps political needs as well, eventually came to the memorable image of all seven Feanorian sons leaping to their father's side, swords drawn, and swearing the same terrible oath.

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but after squinting and playing the trombone for a few moments eventually managed to get it out

This is so much better than my alternative. Of course Maglor played trombone for a few moments. Suddenly it is all so clear. ;)

Also, too right on the social pressure point.

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spiced-wine.livejournal.com

As for why they all swore the oath, explaining the oath is actually one of the major reasons why I've come to believe that Feanor was a good father to his sons who inspired their loyalty, an idea that has become central to my own writing. I believe they were inclined to be loyal to him and especially compelled after Finwe's death, which likely struck them near (since they lived with him in exile); I also believe that they shared his essential worldview that valued independence and freedom over the "protection" of the Valar. After that, social influence took its hold, and social psychology has taught us that that is a pretty strong hold, even in the absence of the emotion-laden context in which the oath was sworn. I can see, for example, Feanor swearing his oath and, say, Curufin wanting to do the same; several other brothers joining, and then the social pressure combined with the intensity of emotion they were experiencing compelling the others to do the same. To one observing, their consensus was probably startling and, shaped by dramatic needs in future retellings and perhaps political needs as well, eventually came to the memorable image of all seven Feanorian sons leaping to their father's side, swords drawn, and swearing the same terrible oath.

That's exactly my own belief. I never found anything strange about it, or thought to question it even when I first read (and had no-one to discuss it with).

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Elves have telepathy, especially among close colleagues or family members, so knowing the words wouldn't be a problem.

As to why: filial piety, grief, shock, rage, the desire to Do Something and (not unjustified) mistrust that the Valar would be able to fix the problem and the thing that I don't think has been raised before: survivors' guilt. Finwe their beloved grandfather had been murdered and they hadn't been there for him. Going after Morgoth was the least that they could do. I suspect that the Silmarils would have been almost incidental at that point, except as a sort of shorthand for get-Morgoth-and-fix-all-of-this. I agree that they didn't fully understand what they were swearing to, especially the bit about the Darkness Everlasting. Not their fault, since clearly even Tolkien wasn't too sure. Actual non-existence, I assume.

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I did mention telepathy, but I forgot to mention that it has some of the same problems as just hearing the Oath... as it gets more dramatic near the end, it gets more worrying. Not that the begininning isn't a bit overzealous, for someone who just wants to go after Morgoth.

New theory forming...

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On reflection I'm not sure elven telepathy would have worked well. It's supposed to be less precise than speech so if Feanor had tried that he might have got seven different versions of the Oath ('NO Caranthir! It's 'Morgoth' not 'warthog'!)

Further suggestion - Feanor had prepared seven scripts beforehand. In extra large print, due to Morgoth having turned out the lights ;)

Edited Date: 2013-05-23 06:36 pm (UTC)

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seven different versions of the Oath ('NO Caranthir! It's 'Morgoth' not 'warthog'!)

Please, please write this! ;)

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keiliss.livejournal.com

*And Maedhros turned to Maglor and said, 'How about you?' and handed him the notecard with the words written on it, which Maglor had trouble reading in the torchlight but *

Okay, I know I'm shallow, but I would so devour that fic!

It's not my time or space, but I've always thought they had no idea what they were getting themselves into? People's grandfathers didn't get murdered in Paradise. The lights didn't tend suddenly to go out either. It was shocking and upsetting (and high, high drama for a couple of those boys) and Feanor was beside himself and whipping up the testosterone. I saw it as him swearing the Oath and everyone else falling in behind with 'I do so solemnly swear upon my blood and in the name of the One' or whatever and not having a blind clue what that meant other than they were crossing the water and they were going to kick Morgoth's ass.

Hindsight is always twenty-twenty --- it wouldn't seem quite as big an ask as it proved and at the time no one knew about exile and killing elves who weren't followers of Morgoth, just decent people with their own ways and priorities. It's struck me they were a bit like all those young British boys, going off to fight in WW1 and worrying it'd be over before Christmas, before they could have their Big Adventure. And then there was the Somme.

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moetushie

I think my icon about covers it.

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samtyr.livejournal.com

This is probably going to be an awkward explanation but her goes.... I believe that a large part of it was Feanor's skill as an orator, for he must have been a consummate politician as well as being the eldest prince. "Feanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it... Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride... Long he spoke..." (Silm, Ch. 9, p. 91-2)

I'm also fairly certain that Feanor drew 'power' (for lack of a better term) from the crowd itself who are caught up in the moment as well. (If you have ever been to an exceptional movie, concert or play, you have a better idea of what I am trying to say, or I hope you do.)

For me personally, the closest examples I can think of in modern times are the "I have a dream" and the "I have been to the mountaintop" speeches by Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Even as a young child watching them on tv made me *believe*; I can only imagine what it would have been like to have been there in person.

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moetushie

Interesting comparison to modern inspiring political speeches! I like that. I wasn't around to hear them live (I think liveness is important, there's an impact from hearing something fresh and new) but I felt the same when I heard Barack Obama's 2004 speech at the Democratic National Convention. I went from not knowing who the heck he was to being convince that he was Going Places Someday. I'm usually not that right about my political predictions, but I was on that one.

Um, back to the subject at hand. Yes, definitely, Feanor had a bully-pulpit (and everyone knew who he was) and he sure as heck knew how to use it.

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Look up "Triumph of the Will" on Youtube (by Leni Riefenstahl, not Rammstein).

Also "hate radio" together with "International Criminal Tribunal For Rwanda".

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ladybrooke

Personally, I feel that the reasons would have been different for each son (though of course, we could paint broad strokes and say that Maedhros and Maglor likely had at least somewhat similar reasons, and group a few of the remaining brothers together as well).

I doubt it was simply the quasi-magical lure of the Silmarils - even Fëanor seems to have been at least partially motivated by his father's death, and I though I have no text sources at the moment to back it up, the sons in general seem to be so deeply about family that I can't picture that not being at least a partial reason. (My reasoning for the sons being deeply about family mainly stems from the fact that unlike the Houses of Fingolfin or Finarfin, where people break off and split off and rarely ever see each other again, the sons all seem to congregate together and have communication on at least a semi-regular basis, even if that basis is "Let's discuss this bloody oath, and by the way Maedhros, did you know that Celegorm and Curufin tried to kidnap Elwë's daughter and pissed him off?" *cough* There's other reasoning as well, but it's the middle of the night and I have a headache. Attempts to explain it would doubtless lead to more ramblings than this is.)

As much as it's not an answer, I have to go with the same thing I said on the other debate - it's quite complex, and I doubt there's a one solution answer to any of it. I do think that at least for some of them, there was probably more hesitation. If I had to guess, Maedhros and Maglor more hesitant, Curufin and Celegorm jumping straight up, Caranthir and the Ambarussa somewhere in the middle. Grief - even if not the primary motivator - would cloud the intellectual processes of every one involved. Anger, of course, is one of the popularly accepted stages of grief, and I do think that would fit with how Fëanor acted. His sons, of course, have just lost their grandfather (which is not supposed to happen), their parents are separated, and dear dad says he's leaving Valinor. So, at least a partial motivation being to not lose yet another family member to the ones that have already disappeared, mixed with guilt (over not protecting their grandfather, considering that it's at least implied that they were all there but ran away) and anger. Then once a brother or two has already jumped up and sworn the Oath (holding the idea that Maedhros and Maglor were more hesitant) what else to do? Now they've lost their grandfather, their father's already sworn to go, younger brothers are swarming to swear to go too...

...and now the plot bunnies are attacking.

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mangacrack.livejournal.com

I read a nice timeline on tumblr just a few days ago that stats that between Finwe's death and the Oath Swearing were at least a few month. The author argued that Feanor obviously waited some time to see if the Valar would act. Which they didn't.

Regarding the question:

Feanor was paranoid and most likely afraid of people leaving him. His sons suffered already from the gap between their parents and since it was Nerdanel who left, they sided with their father. I would also like to believe that they offered to swear the oath with their father. Out of love, not obligation.

Which also probably let to the second oath swearing. When Feanor was dying he must have had a sense of what was to come, that the Noldor had to fight Morgoth to the bitter end, no matter the cost. Feanor was also aware of the danger the Silmaril posed to be for anyone who isn't a Feanorian. His sons were most likely the only ones he told how he created the Silmarils and if they have some kind of magical lure, they were aware of it. And trained to resist it. I see the Silmarils as something that can be a powerful weapon, if they fell into the wrong hands. It could explain Feanors desperation the get them back. He had to have some kind of use for them in mind, when he created them since the Valar believed them potent enough to recreate the trees.

Conclusion:

Morgoth never explored the possibilities regarding the Silmarils. They were just spoils of war for him. Feanor's sons - in my eyes - had sworn to reclaim the Silmarils and also get them out of reach, where they could do no more harm. Wasn't it also Eönwe final judgement, when Maedhros and Maglor stole the Silmarils? He didn't allow them to be slain, instead he waited what they would do with them. And when Eärendil appeared in the sky, they made a similar comment.

So even if Feanor wasn't right when it came to his actions of leaving Fingolfin behind, he was the one who knew the Silmarils best and his sons would habe never voluntary betrayed him.

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There's also the factor of distance. Feanor and his sons were very far from Tirion, up north in Formenos, and the Eldar didn't have anything faster than horses. So everything would have taken much longer than we're used to. Neither communication nor travel was instantaneous. So there would have been plenty of time for pressure to build and oratory and Oaths to be prepared in advance.

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mangacrack.livejournal.com

Weren't there even two years between Finwe's death and the Noldor leaving Valinor? It makes my question why Olwe didn't antipacted that. Surely he must have known that Feanor would come to him sooner or later? Especially after Feanor deemed the Helcaraxe as suicidal and unsafe?

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Again I think distance is a factor. There's no reason to think that Olwe knew Feanor that well, or knew what the Noldor were up to away in Tirion in any detail. I don't think that he could be assumed to have known what Feanor was planning, or his considerations about the Helcaraxe. Olwe was the King of the Teleri, not the Noldoer; he had his own people to look after. The Noldor were no concern of his.

And given the totally peaceable lives of the elves up to that point, I don't think that he could have anticipated attack and mass murder in response to his perfectly reasonable proposal to calm down, talk to the Valar and decide what to do in a rational manner. This is a species that had had no history of intraspecies violence at all.

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mangacrack.livejournal.com

The peaceful lives is a valit point, but surely the new of Finwe's death and Feanor traveling to Araman reached his ears? Or was there no communication at all? I think it is unlikely that Olwe knew nothing. He just didn't know how to react. It was in his right to refuse Feanor the ships, but it was also common knowlegde how stubborn Feanor could be. Or as the Silmarillion stats: "few changed his courses by counsel, non by force."

And: did Feanor decide to attack the Teleri or did the Teleri decided to attack him when he aimed to steal the ships? I Since Feanor was living in the same peacefull live as everyone before Morgoth came, it isn't a given that he just wanted the mass murder. Besides the term 'mass murder' cannot be correct since Noldor were killed as well.

I suspect that the Teleri wished to drive the Noldor away, but were met by people dressed and trained for war. It means that the Noldor won the battle, but not that they started it.

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*devil's advocate >:) *

Again I think distance is a factor.

Yet upthread you mention telepathy. What is to say that, for example, Eärwen, wife of Finarfin, did not communicate what was happening in Tirion to Olwë, her father?

/devil's advocate

That's not to say that Olwë knew everything, but the Noldor and Teleri were, up to this point, friends and allies. I do not think that Olwë would have adopted a completely isolationist mindset of "the Noldor are no concern of mine", and would likely have at least tried to keep informed of the goings-on in Valinor, whether he acted upon the information or not.

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I think the two year gap was an abandoned concept. It's in the annals in 'The Lost Road' but not the later ones in 'Morgoth's Ring'. Tolkien did a fair bit of work on that part of the story after the annals in 'The Lost Road' - Finwe's two marriages weren't even part of the story when he wrote those.

I daresay Olwe did know about Finwe's death, but it doesn't follow he knew about Feanor's rabble rousing in Tirion.

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New theory: the Oath we have (all versions) was written after the fact. (Possibly as part of the Noldolante?)
What they all swore was something simpler, saying only that by Eru and Manwe and Varda and the Mountain they would not rest until they got their Jewels back, or else Darkness Everlasting take them.
I am saying this because the Oath as written feels a little... hindsight-ish. I mean, "Man yet unborn"? And that lawyer-like list of possibilities?

Unless maybe it was foresight, which brings me to new theory #2: they were in the grip of some prophetic force. Hey, it happens to Elves! It also makes the whole thing a bit circular "they were doomed because they swore the oath because they saw that they would be doomed by swearing an oath", but that's a tragic element. Kind of the opposite of Turin's "he was doomed further by every effort he made to fight his doom."

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Random addendum (re: lawyer-like nature of the Oath's clauses):

The reason they did not attack Luthien was not... cowardice/prudence, but the fact that it really was not clear whether she fit under any of the clauses. (Part-Maia, Part-Elf, reborn as a mortal... huh?) By the time things rolled around to Dior, it was simpler: he was a Man, right? (Yes, I know this can be debated, but he was born to two mortals, so it's a reasonable assumption for them to make.)

I am not REALLY taking this theory seriously, but the Oath sleeping while Luthien holds the SIlmaril does seriously bother me.

Edited Date: 2013-05-22 07:51 am (UTC)

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What sane force would even consider attacking Luthien?

I always assumed that the Oath sleeping meant that its full force was in abeyance as long as the Silmarils were definitely out of reach. So being in Morgoth's crown counted, and being in space, on Earendil's ship would count too, but not being in the possession of more or less regular people. Since Luthien was the one person in history who managed to beat both Sauron and Morgoth (even if it was temporary and relative) and who furthermore was the one person ever to persuade Mandos to relent on anything, perhaps the Oath thought that she too should be left well alone.

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So you see the Oath as an entity with the ability to make decisions? Not necessarily good ones, at that -- I don't think the actions PERMITTED by the Oath were the pinnacle of sanity, either. They did cost most of the Feanorians their lives, and to no real purpose.

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The way Tolkien described it, it did seem to have some sort of external existence beyond the people who swore it. Of course, it might just be a metaphorical expression of the internal motivations of the sons, but there were indications that at least some of the sons of Feanor tried to forswear the oath but couldn't. Given that they seemed to be fairly strong-minded people, and taking into account that in the Secondary World Manwe and Varda and the One are real, existent forces, so the Everlasting Darkness and the oath itself might be as well, there must have been a bit more to it than just a really strong moral commitment to keeping promises.

The oath wasn't a good oath to start with. It was an oath of hatred, in extreme terms. So it does not surprise me that it did not have good results for the people who swore it.

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Well, some versions of the Oath do mention ainur, etc. in the lawyer clause:

Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer

Be friend or foe or demon wild
of Morgoth, elf or mortal child
or any here on earth may dwell;

So I don't think lack of clarity was the reason they didn't attack Luthien. ;-) I do see how it's a bit, er... convenient that they didn't. I think it may be one of those instances where Tolkien wanted to get from Point A to Point B, so the Oath slept tada! bridge. (Or maybe Celegorm did actually love her.)

But yeah, it does read a bit hindsight-ish. Did Fëanor really whip up an Oath in poem form on the spot? (I suppose if anyone could, it would be Fëanor...) Or, if not hindsight, then it could go back to the premeditated-or-not discussion.

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ladybrooke

Maybe Celegorm loved her, and Curufin was hoping that if his brother managed to sway her, the Oath might be fulfilled by having a wife or possible future child of his brother hold it? (Not that I'm actually sure it would work, but it provides Curufin with a rational reason other than "Celegorm thinks he's in love, again" to not attack.)

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I'd read the heck out of that. ;-) Plus, it would definitely be a valid method of fulfilling the oath WITHOUT bloodshed... Certainly appealing.

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Yes, Ainur, sure -- but surely Reborn!Luthien is Mortal, and so DEFINITELY not one of those? (I am not even sure I would describe reborn!Luthien as one of them -- Melian had her while in Elf-form, etc.) But then, is she really a "mortal child"?

No, Reborn!Luthien defies classification. Unless, perhaps, they had included "Mary Sue" among the clauses...*

The only flaw in this theory is that I am not sure how I would classify Elwing, either. Although, by that point, Maedhros might have been tired of the lawyer-like approach.

(And, once again, this is NOT a serious suggestion -- I am just amused by the idea.)

* Not serious here, either.

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Well, I suppose both reborn!Luthien and Elwing fall under the blanket "any here on earth". Perhaps the Fëanorians tweaked the recorded wording of their oath as time went on? "Hmm, better just add 'anyone', so we don't have to classify anymore halvsies in the future." (Not being terribly serious here either, just amusing myself with devil's advocate).

Unless, perhaps, they had included "Mary Sue" among the clauses...

LOL!

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Also, in respect of Elwing, the oath definitely did not mention seagulls.

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zdenka

I once drew a silly comic that had Maedhros and Maglor staring at the ocean into which Elwing had just jumped and saying to each other, "Technically, the Oath doesn't mention bodies of water."

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Maybe the Oath was in love with Luthien ;) Everybody else was!

Edited Date: 2013-05-22 08:10 pm (UTC)

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Yes, she did have this amazing hypnotic effect. Have you read Philosopher At Large's brilliant WIP "The Leithian Script: A Boy, A Girl and a Dog"? It captures her clearly quite terrifying force of personality very well.

BTW, I was reading your Silmarillion fics on your website and I think they're terrific. I particularly liked your characterisation of Tar-Miriel and her motivations. And the Feanorian were very good too. I had the exact same thought about the Arkenstone the minute I saw it in the Hobbit film. It has to be the Silmaril. Either that, or sooner or later something is going to reach critical mass and blow the top of the Mountain off.

Edited Date: 2013-05-23 08:33 am (UTC)

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