Question about the Kings of the Noldor

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Has anyone got any evidence for the title of High King being used by any King of the Noldor before Fingolfin?  I can't find any to Finwe using it, and Feanor is said only to have claimed the 'kingship' on Finwe's death.  It was also 'kingship' that Maedhros gave up to Fingolfin, although the title of High King is used of Fingolfin later.

 A High King (I'd assume Tolkien's usage is basically from the Irish Ard Ri) is a king who rules other kings.  I've always assumed Fingolfin adopted the title after Finrod and Turgon started calling themselves kings.  Finwe did not rule other kings, so it makes sense he wouldn't be a High King.  The elf in Aman who is referred to as Hign King is Ingwe, presumably because he was felt to have some authority, or at least seniority, over Finwe and Olwe.  High King would still have fitted as a title for Fingon and (just about) for Turgon.  It would not have fitted Gil-galad, although he is said to have used it, but I would assume the title had become fossilised by then.

I also can't find any evidence for Finarfin being called High King, and there wouldn't seem to be any reason why he would be, unless he adopted the title after the First Age when the Valar started reembodying other Noldor kings.

I have though noticed a fanfic tendency to refer to any king of the Noldor as High King, so have I missed something?  Is there any evidence for the title being used before Fingolfin?

Comments

[hhimring]

Oshun discussed this in one of her bios on SWG, but I'm not sure any more which one it was. Basically, she said the same thing. It seems to be a title that came into use after the Noldor split up in Beleriand to acknowledge Fingolfin's overlordship over the different realms in Beleriand.
I have Fingon say in one of my stories (inspired by Oshun's discussion) that the title is a sop really: to disguise he has less power than a Noldoran might have previously expected to have--High King sounds more noble and puissant but in fact seems to amount to less power to command others, because Finrod and Turgon are clearly mostly doing their own thing as much as the Sons of Feanor are.
Well, that was more or less true of HIgh Kings in Ireland, too, I guess.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I think I vaguely recall that Fëanor [very briefly, as it happened] used the title - but I couldn't tell you whether that's "canon" or fanon. I'll go and do some research later on. (A brief check of the German Ardapedia gives me the following "High Kings of the Noldor" (http://ardapedia.herr-der-ringe-film.de/index.php/Hoher_K%C3%B6nig_der_Noldor): Finwë, Fëanor, Maedhros, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Gil-galad. So that seems to corroborate the fannish version. But like any Wiki, it may be untrustworthy. Anyway, as sources it's naming The Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales and The Peoples of Middle-earth, so at least now I know what books to check! ;))

Off the top of my head, I'd think you're right - the High King in Aman is Ingwe, so no Noldorin High King there. Even in Middle-earth, Elwe/Thingol might arguably have a better right to that title than Fingolfin or any of his sons, but it seems the Noldor considered themselves superior to the Sindar and named their own king the High King. I would argue that Gil-galad actually had a better claim to the title, what with the lack of competition at that point...
Anyway. I guess I'll have to check the sources first before I can say more!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Right, I looked through the books and it seems indeed to be as you expected: Nowhere is Finwë named "High King", he is merely King. Even for Turgon as High King I found no evidence - Hidden King yes, High King no, although it's feasible that he might have born the title between the Nirnaeth and the Fall of Gondolin? Whatever. The first who seems to have gone on record as "High King of the Noldor" is Fingolfin. Anything else (including the Ardapedia article) appears to be more or less well-informed conjecture. And frankly, it makes sense: A High King would (as you say) have seniority over other kings (or at least lords), which does not apply to Finwë, nor (strictly speaking) to Fëanor or Maedhros - only when the Noldor spread out in Beleriand, founding their own realms, does Fingolfin become "High King". Of the Noldor, not of the Eldar-in-general, to avoid arguments with the Sindar, I presume!

(I'd suspect that many people don't rightly know just what "High King" means, anyway, or assume that since Fingolfin bore the title, his predecessors and descendants all did so as well, or just copied what they found elsewhere, or just don't think about it in the first place?)

[hhimring]

The fact that Gil-galad takes up the title when he hears of Turgon's death suggests that he considered Turgon the High King until his death. Before that, the text says Turgon was "now by right King of all the Noldor" (after the Nirnaeth), which may or may not amount to the same thing. In Gondolin, Turgon would not have had all that much use for a new title...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. The fact that the text specifies "by right" seems to imply that Turgon didn't actually make use of that right, being "pro forma" High King rather than actually the King Who Commands Other Kings... which would also help to explain the fossilisation, as Clotho called it!

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Turgon is mentioned as being "High King" in both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales respectively:

Then Tuor stood before Turgon son of Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor...

At that name Tuor was stirred, though he knew not why; and he questioned Annael concerning Turgon. "He is a son of Fingolfin," said Annael, "and is now accounted High King of the Noldor, since the fall of Fingon."

I suppose technically he would have had sovereignty over Nargothrond for a few years before it fell... But I think you're right about the title/right being on paper and not something Turgon exercised...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I knew I was overlooking something! Thanks for finding the relevant bits. :)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Any excuse to ignore Real Life chores in favour of Silm stuff! ;)

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the title was High King of the Noldor, not of all the Eldar in Beleriand. (I seem to recall Thingol claiming that one, but don't have the source to hand)

Thanks for checking, it's good to have confirmation I hadn't missed something.

[hhimring]

Further to this:
I found Oshun's discussion. It's in the bio of Turgon (I'm truncating the link so as not to trigger the spam filter):
silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/characterofthemonth/turgon.php

[hhimring]

Further to this:
I found Oshun's discussion. It's in the bio of Turgon (I'm truncating the link so as not to trigger the spam filter):
...
Doh. Triggered the spam filter anyway. So posting again without the link.

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting that, good to know someone else has been over the same ground. I've checked the HOME, of course, but there's always the chance I'd missed something

[kemenkiri.livejournal.com]

There is no evidence for Finarfin even being called *king*... (though I think he was called so).

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Yes I'd noticed he was only called leader not king. But given how little is said about the Noldor who stayed in Aman I don't know that that is significant

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

There's some discussion of this in the Etymologies, although that's an earlier work (from the days when Tolkien was still calling the Sindarin language 'Noldorin') so may not be entirely canon. (Depending on what you think of as canon anyway...)


There are two different words in Elvish for 'king':

(Q) Tár (S) Taur or Tôr
- refers to the "legitimate king of a whole tribe". Tolkien refers to five people by name as using this title: "Ingwë of the Lindar, Finwë of the Noldor (and later Fingolfin and Fingon of all the exiled Gnomes)"... The Sindarin version was only ever used of Thingol, and was considered archaic or poetic otherwise. However, there's no indication whether limiting it to those five was exclusive (nobody else claimed the title) or illustrative. The derivation is from a root word meaning 'lofty' or 'noble'.

Tári is the feminine form, as in Elentári 'Star-queen'. In Sindarin that became tóril, a title only used to refer to Melian of Doriath.


(Q) Haran (S) Aran (plural Erain)
-refers to the lord or king of a specified region. It's derived from a root meaning 'to possess'.

Tolkien uses as an example of the difference between the two words that Fingolfin was both taur of the Exiles and aran of Hithlum.



Assuming that's all still valid, then my assumption would be that the English word 'king' is being used to translate both Elvish words depending on context. It's only when it's necessary to distinguish between the two that tár/taur is translated as 'High King' instead.

In Valinor, I suggest, the word tár was the only one in common use. When the Ñoldor arrived back in Middle-earth, part of their motivation was to claim kingdoms for themselves: and so they started using the word haran/aran to describe the rulers of each of the new kingdoms.

[hhimring]

That's fascinating and may really be the background of Tolkien's use of "High King".
But I don't think Tolkien can have stuck with this distinction all the way because he calls Finwe Noldoran, which is supposed to be "King of the Noldor". (Also the kings of Numenor are all Tar- and I had assumed they were Kings of the country rather than kings of all the Edain.)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Whether he did stick with it I can't say, of course. But I think a case can be argued that he did.

Tar-Minyatur was King of Númenor the physical place, yes, but he was also High King of the Edain. That is, all the Edain of the Three Kindreds who survived the First Age moved to Númenor and accepted his rulership, so he was as much their Tár as Fingolfin was Tár of the Noldor in Exile. (And as grandson of Tuor and great-grandson of Beren he was descended from the leaders of all three Houses.)

And the later rulers of Númenor certainly seemed to think they had a manifest destiny to be the rulers of all of humanity,too... :)

As for Finwë; Tolkien wrote in the Etymologies that Tár was his formal title; but presumably the Quenya word haran already existed then, even before the Exiles founded their territorial kingdoms. So as a speculation, perhaps it was simply an alternative word meaning 'lord' or 'chieftain' in those days, until the returning Ñoldor realised they needed a word to use as the formal title for their newly-appointed kings?

[clotho123.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's interesting. Especially as, I *think* Tolkien is saying that in Beleriand Quenya 'Taro' = King fell together with Q 'Tara' = High (and a couple of other words as well) to produce 'Taur', which might then be a word meaning both King and High. Although he might have qualified that later, given his translation of Tar-Minyatur as 'High First-ruler' rather than 'King First-ruler' (which was something I hadn't considered before).

Anyway it appears the answer is 'complicated translation choices'. And I'm now really wondering what title, if any, Finarfin would have used, given that the Noldor who remained in Aman were nobody's idea of a whole tribe.

Thank you!