A suggestion by Dawn

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Hey... Um the easiest way to put this is that I am in a history course that requires me to write a 10 page paper, so I chose to write about how J.R.R. Tolkien's work on Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion was impacted by his experience in the trenches. STOP... I am familiar with the fact that he denied this and I am also aware fully that this is a controversial subject; however, I wanted to write about LOTR and the Silmarillion having to do with WW1. I simply need some sources that could lead me into the right direction that are analyzing his work. I am not completely familiar with the Silmarillion so it is my weakest point. It would be great if I could have tips on how to organize my thoughts as to fit the timeline of Tolkien's potential experiences and other's experiences in the trenches with the explanation and analysis of his writing... basically this means I need help fitting a square in a small circle slot. Any kind of suggestions about anything to do with it or sources like interviews, analysis, critics etc. would be awesome. Also if anyone were to be interested a potential interview with someone who is qualified as a scholarly individual with a great understanding of either LOTR or the Silmarillion it would be paradisaical. Thanks to Dawn for the suggestion and if this was not the right place to put this please say so.

-Thanks,
drcodemilich

Comments

[lin4gondor.livejournal.com]

One source that seems likely to be helpful is the book "Tolkien and the Great War: The Threshold of Middle-earth." (http://www.amazon.com/Tolkien-Great-War-Threshold-Middle-earth/dp/0618574816). I've not read it myself, but I have glanced at it in the past, and it seems like it would be a valuable source of the kind of info you are looking for. Hopefully it's available in a library or something!

[dreamflower]

I second this recommendation. I think it is by far one of the best Tolkien biographies, and shows a lot about how the war affected JRRT and his work.

I have read it, and found it not only informative and insightful, but also very moving.

[azalaisdep.livejournal.com]

Thirded. I heard the author, John Garth, speak at Oxford University's Tolkien Spring School earlier this year with altariel and edge_of_ruin - both he and the book (which I subsequently read) are excellent. I did briefly post about Garth's lecture here (http://azalaisdep.livejournal.com/127933.html), but the post only really acts as a teaser for the book...

[marta-bee.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether you're looking for a scholar who knows something about Tolkien or a scholar of Tolkien, but if it's the former, I'm willing to put myself out there. Not that I am an expert on all things Middle-earth, but I have read most of the books, the big three along with the Letters and UT multiple times. I also have an M.A. in philosophy and until recently was pursuing a Ph.D. in philosophy, with a concentration on medieval philosophy and philosophy of religion. So... not the most qualified academic as I won't be completing my Ph.D., but if I'm helpful please email me at mlayton-AT-fordham-DOT-edu.

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I will probably try to contact you at some point via email once my ideas are more developed.

[independence1776]

how J.R.R. Tolkien's work on Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion was impacted by his experience in the trenches. STOP... I am familiar with the fact that he denied this

I might be wrong about him denying it-- it's been a while since I've reread Letters and Carpenter's biography-- but the quote that comes to mind about that from the LotR Foreward isn't denying that WWI affected him, but rather stating that LotR isn't an allegory to WWII. Specifically, "[…] but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth in 1914 was no less hideous an experiance than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead." The first part of the paragraph is relevant, too. (The last half is about the Scouring of the Shire.)

I've seen other fans speculate about the geography of Mordor, and though many people think that it's about industrialization and the landscape of mining, they think it's rather the battlefields he lived on and through. I tend to agree with them.

I was likewise going to recommend the same book lin4gondor, with the same caveat that I haven't read it.

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the idea about industrialization having to do with the impact. It will help organize my ideas.

[huinare.livejournal.com]

I second Indy's comment above; my understanding (though I'm not as well-versed as some people in this community) is that Tolkien expressed that his works are not to be allegorically related to the World Wars, but not that he denied any influence. Someone's life experience can and does certainly leach into their writing, not always in conscious ways. Mine certainly does. I think your topic is a viable and interesting one, so long as you're treating his wartime experiences as possible influences as opposed to claiming his work allegorically represents the war(s).

I don't have any source suggestions offhand and I'm not clear how far along you are in formulating your thesis, but I think a potentially fruitful point of discussion is Tolkien's tendency to view science and technology as destructive; scientific/technological advances were misused to terrible effect in both world wars, and the The Silmarillion (as well as The Lord of the Rings) tend to villify or censure the more scientifically-inclined characters.
(pandemonium_213 would probably articulate that with more finesse, but I couldn't stop myself from going there...)

[hhimring]

You definitely need to get your hands on that book by John Garth that the others have already mentioned, if you can. He is the acknowledged academic authority on the subject of Tolkien and WWI, as far as I am aware, although he focusses mostly on LOTR rather than on the Silmarillion. He is also still writing and publishing some of it online--but I guess, because of the movie, recent comments are more likely to be on The Hobbit.
As far as I am aware, Tolkien did not deny he was impacted by his experience in the trenches--he merely denied that his work was an allegory of any particular war (and more specifically that LOTR was an allegory of the Second World War, as some people were assuming at the time).
You might perhaps want to have a look at the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales II in History of Middle-Earth. This is an early draft of a later chapter of the Silmarillion and is a detailed description of an attack on a city written a relatively short time after Tolkien returned from the trenches--perhaps the closest you can get in time to events.

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the suggestion close to his impact. This will help greatly. Is this it just to confirm http://www.amazon.com/Book-Lost-Tales-History-Middle-Earth/dp/034537522X

[hhimring]

Yes, that's the book. I don't think the pagination will be the same as in my copy (it's a different edition), but the Fall of Gondolin is Chapter III. The notes explain that the original draft goes back to 1916/17 (although it is partly illegible) and that some details of this battle were never written out so fully again as in the early drafts (the published Silmarillion contains what is basically only a summary of this battle).
The most well-known and relevant detail here is the dragons--because in this early version they are half-machine (they seem rather more animal-like in later versions) and it has been suggested that this relates to the war machinery of WWI (although I forget who first suggested this--not Tolkien himself, almost certainly). But there may be more to find, perhaps.

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Out of interest I was looking at the dead marshes and no man's land in WW1 and realized that there I would want a part of Dagorlad (Battle Plains) and more importantly of how it fits as a battle of the "War of the last Alliance". Any idea which of the 12 volumes of the History of Middle-Earth it is in?

[hhimring]

I have to confess I'm not really sure what you are asking me here (and also I'm less familiar with this particular material than the First Age).

If you are looking for earlier drafts of the crossing of the Dead Marshes, these should be in the volume "The War of the Ring" in the section "The Ring Goes East".
If you are looking for earlier versions of the account of the first battle of Dagorlad in Appendix A, that should be in "Peoples of Middle-earth".
The first mention of that battle in LOTR is actually in the Council of Elrond chapter, but I don't know whether it was already mentioned in the earlier drafts. If so, these would be in "The Story Continued" in "The Return of the Shadow", I think. (Also, there's the poem about Gil-Galad, but I'm not sure where that first came in.)

If you want a table of contents of HoME, you can Google the "Mellonath Daeron" page on the Forodrim website (that's what I've just been using; I'm not linking because it would probably trigger a spam filter).

Hope this helps!

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

What Indy says about the "Tolkien denied this" issue. It's also important to remember Tolkien's distinction between "allegory" and "applicability" - he's negating the first, but acknowledging the latter!

Aside from the Letters and the general biography by Carpenter, I too expect that Tolkien and the Great War should be of great help. I'm not sure whether Garth is going to link a lot between specific passages in Tolkien's work, and his wartime experiences, but you may be able to do that yourself (although that might be a bit much for a 10-page paper). Alternatively, if you can read German, you might find helpful passages in the German Tolkien Society's 2009 yearbook (http://www.scriptorium-oxoniae.de/hs_6.htm) ("Violence, Conflict, and War in Tolkien"). Focus there is mostly on what's in the texts or the inspirational sources, though - not on Tolkien's real-life experience, although between the lines you might find the one or other connection.
I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of The Silmarillion and a reasonably good grasp of The Lord of the Rings, but I don't think I qualify as a scholarly individual -- left academia two years ago and haven't yet found my way back... I do have an M.A. in English Philology, though, for what it's worth.

[drcodemilich.livejournal.com]

It is worth... joke intended; however, having two affirmative interviews or ideas from the same general kind of community will confirm the legitimacy. Since this is the case I will most likely contact you in the same way as fidesquaerens as to have paralleling responses I can use back to back. Thanks, and I will contact you once I am further along.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Sure thing! I forgot to include contact information (other than LJ). As e-mail may be somewhat more useful than LJ messages, here's my e-mail adress: lyraforeniel at hotmail dot com.
Good luck!

[dawn_felagund]

You have posted this exactly where it belongs. :) This is our most active discussion group at the moment, and we welcome research questions.

To kind of build on what himring wrote up-thread about machines and the Fall of Gondolin, Tolkien writes at some length in his Letters about the theme of the machine in his works, as well as making explicit connections to Christopher Tolkien's service in WWII and his particular hatred of the involvement of his favorite child with the machinery of war. I don't recall if he makes any connections to WWI, but the idea of the machine in connection with warfare was certainly something he thought and wrote about in his letters. That might lend some weight to any discussions of machines in his works, whether the dragons that attacked Gondolin in BoLT or the machines of Isengard, in connection with warfare.

Also ... I do not know which of Tolkien's books you have access to. I have digital copies of most of them. I wouldn't recommend them for scholarly work, since they are full of typos and would be impossible to cite, but if you want to preview a volume to see if it is worth purchasing or trying to locate in a library, then I'd be happy to share. Just send me an email.