SWG Re-Read - "Of the Beginning of Days" Discussion Post

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

First, the Graphics Post has been updated! A big thank you to lignota and ljusastjarnan for creating lovely new banners.

Second, welcome to the first of this fortnight's chapter discussions!
Just to clarify: This is not supposed to be purely a lecture or an essay exchange (although essays and lectures are welcome, of course), nor an elite club! Please feel free to comment on each other's thoughts, whether you agree, disagree or never thought about it like that before. That's how we're going to get a lively and (hopefully) fruitful discussion.
Please don't hesitate to join in – nobody's thoughts are "inadequate" or less valuable than anybody else's, no matter whether you've read The Silmarillion twenty times or whether this is your first, whether you know the History of Middle-earth by heart or never managed to plough through any of it, whether you've been in the fandom for 30 years or whether you're a newcomer. Everybody's got something to contribute!
Also, please don't think that you are "too late" if you don't respond to the discussion posts at once. They are not going to be locked down at any point, so if you have thoughts on past chapters, you can add them at any time, even weeks or months after they have been "due". (The due dates refer to the posting of the discussion and fanworks posts – they are not the only day on which anyone is allowed to contribute!)
Above all, we hope you have fun with this project!

OK, 'nuff of the preliminaries. Without further ado, we present... "Of the Beginning of Days".

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Chapter 1 – Of the Beginning of Days


Banner by lignota.


Summary

In this chapter, we are told how the Valar order the world after having entered into it and driven Melkor out with the help of Tulkas, a late addition to their pantheon.

Their first attempt is a symmetrical shape, with a great lake and a huge island in the centre. In order to have light, they create great lamps – one in the North, one in the South – that provide a regular and unchanging light. But where there is light, there is shadow, and when the Valar are resting, Melkor uses that cover of shadow to secretly build a fortress in the far North. When the Valar become aware of his return and begin to search for him, he destroys the lamps, and with them the orderly shape of the world.

After that experience, the Valar choose a more secluded place for their new dwelling, making it even more inaccessible by raising high mountain walls, the Pelóri, to keep Melkor and his evil followers out. With the lamps destroyed, they need a new source of light, which is achieved in the shape of two great trees that take turns in growing, shining and fading. However, their light does not reach beyond the Pelóri, although some of the Valar still give some thought and care to Middle-earth.

The chapter closes with observations on the fate of Elves and Men after death.



Our Favourite Quotes

"The one had leaves of dark green that beneath were as shining silver, and from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, and the earth beneath was dappled with the shadows of his fluttering leaves. The other bore leaves of a young green like the new-opened beech; their edges were of glittering gold. Flowers swung upon her branches in clusters of yellow flame, formed each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blossom of that tree came forth warmth and a great light."

"Thus in Valinor twice every day there came a gentle hour of softer light when both trees were faint and their gold and silver beams were mingled."

"But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter."

"Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim."

"And when Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established, in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city, Valmar of many bells."

"And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days."



Earlier Versions

This is not a chapter in its own right in the earlier drafts of the mythology; rather, it is handled either as an extension/sequel to the Ainulindalë narration (2; 6), as part of the Ambarkanta or "The Shape of the World" (3) and as part of the general timeline in the earlier and later "Annals of Valinor" (4 and 5) and "Annals of Aman" (7). Only later did it become an independent part of the Quenta Silmarillion (8).

A lot of details of the early version have been cut out of the final version, such as the detailed description of the order of the world, the different layers of air, the various spirits that are also counted among the Ainur (including sylphs, brownies, pixies, leprechauns and mermaids (2)). As has been mentioned in the discussion post for Valaquenta, there were additional Valar in earlier versions which were later omitted, including Makar and Meássë or Ómar/Amillo. Others were demoted from their original roles (such as Salmar, who originally was a Vala but later becomes a Maia in Ulmo's service). The children of the Valar disappear or receive new roles (the son of Manwë and Varda, Fionwë, becomes Ëonwë the herald of Manwë; Oromë originally was a son of Yavanna).

Various other details have also been changed. Some of the most interesting changes (in our opinions):

~ The Valar did not always shape the world symmetrically; rather, they were looking for the perfect place to settle. The lamps were made in order to make their search easier – not to light any finished abode. (2)

~ Originally, the pillars for the lamps were made by Melkor (Aulë merely created the lamps themselves). He claimed that they were made of some new and indestructible material he had invented himself, but in truth, it was ice – which naturally melted in the heat of the lamps it was bearing. (2; 3; 4; 5)

~ The light for the lamps wasn't always created by Varda (as is implied though not explicitly stated in The Silmarillion), but collected from where it floated freely through the airs and lands. Some (less focused) light remains hovering after the creation of the lamps (and some returns to the air when the lamps topple down), which explains why things continue to grow even after the destruction of the lamps and the building of Valinor: There is no (starlit) darkness, but a liquid sort of twilight. The light from the lamps that does not flow back into a high layer of air is later collected to feed the Two Trees. (2) Later, the Earth is dark "save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda made" (8) before the lamps are made, and the final Annals of Aman state that it is Varda who fills the lamps "with hallowed fire" (7).

~ In the earliest version, Laurelin (a.k.a. Lindeloksë) grows and blooms first, and Silpion (Telperion) comes after. (2)

~ Nienna starts out as a goddess of death, Fui Nienna, from whom Men learn their fate after death, depending on their character. There are apparently four options for their spirits: staying in Mandos; being sent forth beyond the Pelóri so "Melko [Melkor] seizes them and bears them to Angamandi [Angband], the Hells of Iron, where they have evil days"; transportation aboard a black ship called Mornië ("darkness") that bears them to a gloomy place where they have to wander and wait for the End of the World; or (very rarely) a special invitation to dwell and feast with the Valar until the End of Days. (2) But in the 1940s, Tolkien decided that the Valar (and thus nobody else, either) do not know what happens to the spirit of Men after they die and depart from Mandos. (6)

~ "Round World Version": The world is lit by the Sun from the start. Melkor wants to break the world so "none shall possess it". He doesn't succeed, but manages to tear off some portion, which he turns into a small satellite earth from which he can watch everything that happens in the world and work his evil. The Valar assault the place, banish Melkor and remove his mock-earth further from the "real" earth, where it remains as a mirror – becoming the Moon. (6 C*)

Some of these ideas appear to have been discarded relatively early on (or at any rate they do not appear again in later writings, though not all of them are contradicted at some point).



Food for Thought

~ In The Book of Lost Tales I, this story is told in a lot more detail, including descriptions of several of the Valar's houses in Valinor. If you create fanworks set in Valinor, do you look to these descriptions even though they did not make it into the final Silmarillion? Do you consider them as useful sources of inspiration, as canon, as obsolete, or something else entirely?

~ Why do you think Tolkien initially offered so many different afterlife options for mortals, and why did he change his mind?

~ Although Varda is the lady of light, the Two Trees are (in the published Silmarillion) achieved solely by Yavanna (with a little help from Nienna). Do you think this is intentional or accidental?

~ Despite (or because of) Melkor's power, do you think more of the Valar should have given thought and care to Middle-earth in the period after they built Valmar and the Two Trees, given that they knew the Children would arrive?

~How do you choose to deal with the different measurements of time offered for Valinor and Middle-earth at different stages of the story?



Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 1. Of the Beginning of Days".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "III. Of the Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "V. The Ambarkanta".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Lost Road and Other Writings. Part Two: Valinor and Middle-earth before The Lord of the Rings. "The Later Annals of Valinor".

(6)The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Part One. "Ainulindalë".

(7)The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Part Two. "The Annals of Aman".

(8)The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "1.2 The First Phase: Of Valinor and the Two Trees".


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Comments

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

On rereading this chapter - trying to pay attention ;) - I ran into this:
Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas
Aulë as the sole builder of Middle-earth?

Why do you think Tolkien initially offered so many different afterlife options for mortals, and why did he change his mind?
I think it's part of the streamlining of the story that makes it more powerful: Men are something else altogether, not even the Valar know what will become of them. Iluvatar's gift of Death gives them transcendence which as time wears even the Powers shall envy (I love this idea: immortality isn't such a good idea after all! It reminds me of a short story by Jorge Luis Borges called El Inmortal)

I think it's interesting that from the beginning we can see the Elvish prejudices about Men:
Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë [...] it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur

Nienna's watering of the Trees gives them a quality beyond the natural which Yavanna conveys: if Nienna is acquainted with grief as the Valaquenta says, the Trees become more than hallowed sources of light but reminders of finitude.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting that from the beginning we can see the Elvish prejudices about Men:
Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë [...] it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur

There is plenty of evidence of the Elvish prejudices against Men these short-lived mortal creatures, who suffer sickness and death, cursed with a physical and moral fragility, and with their lifespan a mere blick of the eye, barely time to acquire any wisdom. And then there is the pervasive Elvish belief that Men are somehow more susceptible to Morgoth's dirty tricks. Yet, we have Sauron/Annatar in Eregion. Finally, we follow the trajectory of the diminishment of the Elven dominance in Middle-earth which continues inexorably all the way to the point of making way at the end of LotR for a new Age of Men being ushered in by the Return of the King. Tolkien himself explained the weakness within the Elvish makeup in this letter for example:

But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favorite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron’s deceits: they desired some “power” over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. . . (Tolkien, Letters 236)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Another point about the relations between Elves and Men is that for Elves, it's Men who would be the mysterious, ethereal, evanescent , unknowable creatures, whom you can never properly grasp or understand, because they just don't stand still for long enough for you to get a fix on them. It's Elves who are solid and earthy and real. You can see elvish parents in the First Age warning their children not to get attached to Men no matter how much fun they were to play with, because they wouldn't last and you would be terribly sad, and just getting another one wouldn't be the same at all.

[independence1776]

Aulë as the sole builder of Middle-earth?

Ooh, good catch! It's possible-- the Valaquenta says, "His lordship is over all the substances of which Arda is made." So it makes sense to me that he's the prime creator of it.

I love this idea: immortality isn't such a good idea after all!

Me, too. It's part of Tolkien's conception of death as a gift, with Númenor's struggles and the lessening lifespan of its descendents, where even Aragorn's was more limited. There's a lot bound up in it, and I'm nowhere near qualified to tease all the tangles apart. Anyone else have any thoughts?

if Nienna is acquainted with grief as the Valaquenta says, the Trees become more than hallowed sources of light but reminders of finitude.

Holy cow! I love this.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Aulë as the sole builder of Middle-earth?

Oooh, nice catch! Considering that Aulë is the great craftsman among the Valar, and that the substances of Arda are his field of expertise, I suppose it makes perfect sense. But wow, that's a pretty big piece of work, even for a Vala.
(Though to be fair, he probably had help from his Maiar!)

I think it's part of the streamlining of the story that makes it more powerful:

I like your explanation! Have to admit that I liked the early version with all the different options as well, though. To me, it looked as if Tolkien had taken bits from different real-world mythologies - Limbo, Hell, Valhalla and the Celtic Ship of Darkness, and then after the end of the world something like Heaven - and made them all "real" possibilities within his story. I've suspected that he later took a step back because of course that sort of approach clashed with his real-world faith. But maybe it really just was streamlining. I agree that the uncertainty is certainly more powerful than any clear-cut "bad guys go to Angband, good guys get to wander in a barren land but at least they can see the stars, and the exceptionally great get to feast with the gods right away". It certainly reflects our reality a lot better ;)

I think it's interesting that from the beginning we can see the Elvish prejudices about Men:

Oh, yes! Though to be fair, the first the Elves (at least in Aman) ever heard about Men appears to have been through the whisperings of Melkor, so maybe it isn't surprising that they'd be prejudiced. And that's not even considering the fact that people simply are suspicious, intolerant and judgemental about people who appear to be extremely different from them...

the Trees become more than hallowed sources of light but reminders of finitude.

That is true. During my research, I came across a line in which the Valar observed the Mingling of the Lights with a certain wistfulness, even at a time when they knew that each Tree would return a few hours later. So that idea of finitude seems to have been part of the exceptional value of the Trees right from the start!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

To me, it looked as if Tolkien had taken bits from different real-world mythologies - Limbo, Hell, Valhalla and the Celtic Ship of Darkness, and then after the end of the world something like Heaven - and made them all "real" possibilities within his story. I've suspected that he later took a step back because of course that sort of approach clashed with his real-world faith.


I always thought it was the opposite: the story in the 'Book of Lost Tales' mapped too closely onto Catholic theology, except seen through a fantasy lens. Tolkien thought it would be more, well, tasteful to be less explicit and leave the fate of human souls in God's hands instead of spelling it out in his book.

The evil are sent to Melko to be tormented in his dungeons = Hell. (And it definitely adds a certain echo to the mythology if you consider that originally, calling Utumno or Angband 'Hell' was meant literally.)

The majority of human souls are sent to a bleak, grey land to wait for the End of Days - but they can see the stars, and are "not without song" = Purgatory

A small minority of the blessed are welcomed directly into Aman to feast alongside the Valar, with music and light and joy = Heaven. (And specifically, those few people ,such as Saints and the Virgin Mary, who were welcomed directly into Heaven without having to go to Purgatory first or await the Last Judgement).

[elliska.livejournal.com]

Though to be fair, the first the Elves (at least in Aman) ever heard about Men appears to have been through the whisperings of Melkor, so maybe it isn't surprising that they'd be prejudiced.

That's a good point! Never thought of that. And that's important.

[elliska.livejournal.com]

Although Varda is the lady of light, the Two Trees are (in the published Silmarillion) achieved solely by Yavanna (with a little help from Nienna). Do you think this is intentional or accidental?

Interesting. And more than this, not only were the Two Trees created without her help, when she created more stars before the awakening of the elves, she used Telperion's dew to create them.

"Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars. Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom."

Then, when the Trees' flowers were used to make the Sun and Moon, her part was not to create the light (Yavanna and Nienna made the trees bloom one last time), but to set the lights in the Heavens:

"These vessels the Valar gave to Varda, that they might become lamps of heaven, outshining the ancient stars, being nearer to Arda; and she gave them power to traverse the lower regions of Ilmen, and set them to voyage upon appointed courses above the girdle of the Earth from the West unto the East and to return."

Because of this, I always assumed that Varda's light came, along with everything else, from the Flame Imperishable and hers was the special ability to set lights into the heavens. Similarly, I assumed the Trees arose via Yavanna drawing on the power of the Flame and so had light of their own. So I never really thought of Yavanna making light. I thought of it as Yavanna making something within her 'realm' (trees), that because they arose from the Flame, had light of their own. And then when it came time to put that light into the heavens, rather than just in Valinor, Varda took the light and did that.

[independence1776]

That's an interesting take, one I'd never considered before. (Like Lyra, I assumed Yavanna created the light of the Trees and that Varda's ability was to create light.) I'm going to have to think about it some more. Thank you!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Because of this, I always assumed that Varda's light came, along with everything else, from the Flame Imperishable and hers was the special ability to set lights into the heavens.

That would make sense! It vastly diminishes her powers as "Lady of Light", though. Poor Varda. ;)

[elliska.livejournal.com]

It does, which doesn't make sense because she's the Queen and the one the Elves love the most. I always saw her power as being the one who could always hear the cries of the Elves (you know, this line: And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth. Of all the Great Ones who dwell in this world the Elves hold Varda most in reverence and love. Elbereth they name her, and they call upon her name out of the shadows of Middle-earth, and uplift it in song at the rising of the stars. So, light is her symbol, but hearing/helping those in need is her power.

I tend to over think things. ;-) Count on me for that. ;-)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The relationship of the Valar to Arda is interesting; if you think of them as Anthropomorphic personifications, then they are in some sense the world, or perhaps it is their activity that creates and maintains the world (Shiva dancing). So none of them could have done without the others.

Varda as the personification of Light (and presumably the entire elctromagnetic spectrum including x-rays and the infrared) would still not have much effect in Arda without material to express and, as it were carry the light - like Lamps and Trees and electric eels and fireflies and deep-sea anglerfish and fluorescent minerals and lightning. Angler-fish partake of Varda's realm (light) and Yavanna's (living things) and Ulmo's (water) all at once, just as fluorescent minerals partake of Aule's realm as well and lightning is part of Manwe's. A storm at sea is Osse's realm but Manwe's as well. Nothing would live without water, so Yavanna's realm and Ulmo's are inextricably intertwined. Orome is the Hunter, and is married to Vana (who is Yavanna's sister and Spring - birth and the renewal of life) so his realm connects with Yavanna's too because the biosphere requires death and birth to continue. The Valar work together, making the world.

Melkor's big error was thinking that because he himself had some of all the Valar's separate strengths he could replace them all as sole creator of Arda.

On measurement of time: When I write fic set in Valinor I deliberately blur measurements of time unless mortals (Hobbits and Dwarves) are involved. Time doesn't matter to the Eldar in the same way that it does to mortals, so it's not something that they would pay attention to. Something takes as long to do as it takes, that's all. And this then affects how they do things in many ways. If someone living in Tirion wants seafood, they'll move down to the coast and live there for a bit and eat as many prawns as they want. If they want new clothes they'll make them themselves or commission them from someone. No rush.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

So none of them could have done without the others.

I think that's a really important point! Not just because they're personifications of specific aspects of the world (or maybe better, reality), but also because each of them is limited to his or her own specific field of expertise, and can't properly look beyond. (And what great examples!)

When I write fic set in Valinor I deliberately blur measurements of time

Glad I'm not the only one. I have to admit that I don't even justify it to myself as sensibly as you do - I'm often just too lazy to do the maths, especially with the mess that are Valian Years! ^^

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I'm often just too lazy to do the maths, especially with the mess that are Valian Years! ^^

Oh, lord! That's me exactly. I'm probably even worse. When people start talking about Valarian years I want to stick my fingers in my ears and start chanting "la-la-la-la" so I can't hear them--some Tolkien scholar I make! Ha! It's like he is trying to break my brain.

I do think it is normal and natural with fantasy worlds to want to adapt the images that work for us individually and block out the ones that do not. I'm happy to let someone else write about Valarian years and years of the Sun until the cows come home. This is part of my problem with fandom discussions which try to nail down every tiny aspect of canon airtight for oneself and everyone who is willing to listen. The discussion of canon is useful and fun; the rock-hard codification of it into a perfect system will never work for me (it's not real!), because of the multiplicity of contradictions and the knowledge that he was still changing it up until he died.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The way that I try to think myself into that "timeless" mindset is by reading books on paleontology. Thinking in Deep Time is the best way that I have for analysing the psychology and priorities of a species that lives for a really<.i> indefinite length of time. An elf can watch a mountain range rise and fall and be there afterwards.

[independence1776]

The Valar work together, making the world.
Melkor's big error was thinking that because he himself had some of all the Valar's separate strengths he could replace them all as sole creator of Arda.


That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of Melkor's error in that perspective, but it makes sense.

[dreamflower]

When I write fic set in Valinor I deliberately blur measurements of time unless mortals (Hobbits and Dwarves) are involved.

I do the same even when writing about hobbits. As my Bilbo and Frodo live among the Elves on Tol Eressea, they completely lose track of time. They rely on Gandalf (who has voluntarily maintained his old persona for their sake) to remind them of special days they like to remember, such as their birthday or Yule. I base this on the perception of timelessness the mortals had in Lothlorien--only I figure that aspect would be magnified immensely in the West.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Also, if you look at the geographical location of Tol Eressea, it's basically on what would have been the equator in Middle-earth.

So it would have a perpetual summer, and you would get trees with fruit, flowers and leaves all at once, which leads to tricks of temporal perception even in the primary world. A UK citizen once told me that he had decided to leave the tropics after living there for several years because he was losing track of time from the lack of seasons (he was on the equator, not in the monsoon tropics, where seasons are definite and unmissable, though not the ones that he would have been used to) and didn't want to wake up one day and find that twenty years had passed. That stuck in my mind.

[dreamflower]

The main thing that struck me in re-reading this chapter was in the very first paragraph: twice the laughter of Tulkas is mentioned: Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter.

This seems very significant to me, though I'm not sure what it signifies.

[independence1776]

It does seem important, but I likewise don't know why. Maybe that one can take joy in battles worth fighting?

[dreamflower]

I have to confess, when I noticed this, the first thing that popped into my mind was the thing in Harry Potter about the boggarts: laughter and mockery banished them. Yet somehow, though I thought of it, it didn't seem quite right in this context.

I do think you are right in your observation, though.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

My first thought upon reading this was, "So the most important thing to overcome evil is... a sense of humour? That's actually pretty neat!"

No idea whether that is what it signifies, but I like it! :D

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Perhaps that the laughter was a signal to Melkor that he wasn't being taken quite as seriously as he thought he should be. A common trait among the arrogant.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

Yes! I've always considered Tulkas a kind of Norse/Icelandic warrior (though I don't know much about Norse/Icelandic mythology!) who laughs when he goes to fight because that's the role he has to play according to Eru's plans and a battle well fought is a job well done. No wonder Melkor hated him!

I'd like to congratulate Lignota for the banner: the most beautiful representation of the trees I've ever seen!

[zdenka]

*blush* Thank you. It's from a William Morris tapestry.