Silm Re-Read: "Of Aulë and Yavanna" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of Aulë and Yavanna

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Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Summary

Aulë created the Dwarves in secret in Middle-earth long before the coming of Elves and Men. He did this not with a desire to dominate but so he could have students to learn his craft. Ilúvatar discovered his creation the moment Aulë finished and confronted him. Aulë told Eru that he could do as he pleased with the Dwarves and offered to destroy them. Ilúvatar gave them independent life. He bid Aulë to hide them, sleeping, until after the Elves awoke. After this, Aulë told Yavanna what he had done and she began to worry for the safety of her creations after the Coming of Elves, Men, and Dwarves. She goes to Manwë and they discover/remind themselves of the Ents and the Eagles.

Our Favorite Quotes

“But when the time comes, I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.”

“For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.”

"Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds?"

"Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."

Alternate Versions

~ The Dwarves started out in The Book of Lost Tales as evil people (BoLT 1, Gilfanon’s Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli, “The Awakening of Men According to the Earlier Outlines”).

~ In BoLT 2, the first mention of their origins occurs in “The Nauglafring”: “The Nauglath are a strange race and none know surely whence they be; and they serve not Melko nor Manwë and reck not for Elf or Man, and some say that they have not heard of Ilúvatar, or hearing disbelieve.” It is also the first instance of their physical description.

~ The first appearance of Aulë’s creation of them is in The Lost Road, “The Later Annals of Beleriand”, where it is stated that was not originally known where the Dwarves came from, but that narrator later learned of it. Annal 104 also says, “But the Dwarves have no spirit indwelling, as have the Children of the Creator, and they have skill but not art; and they go back into the stone of the mountains of which they were made.” It is likewise made explicit in “The Lhammas” that Aulë devised the Dwarvish language.

~ It is only in The War of the Jewels (“The Later Quenta Silmarillion,” Concerning the Dwarves) that the hostile view vanished, but at the same time, several new ideas were introduced. Among them are longevity; that Aulë cares for them after death, gathering them in a separate place in Mandos instead of them returning to stone ; that the Fathers of the Dwarves (but only they) can be re-born like the Eldar; the Dwarves will aid Aulë in recreating Arda after the end of the world; Dwarves are bearded from birth (both men and women); Dwarf-women are few; and there is some relation between the tongue of the Dwarves and the Easterling Men.

~ The matter of Dwarf-women seems to have given Tolkien a hard time. He clearly knew that they were necessary if he didn't want his Dwarves to hatch from stone, but wasn't certain how to introduce them into the story. He experimented with different ideas, such as Eru creating them after adopting the Fathers of the Dwarves (because he did not want to mess with Aulë's design, the Dwarf-women look like the men); Aulë creating six female Dwarves after having made the men, grew tired and rested, and afterwards buried six Dwarf pairs and one single Dwarf; or Aulë creating mates for all Fathers of the Dwarves. None of these ideas made it into the final draft, suggesting that Tolkien wasn't satisfied with any of them.

~ As for the Ents: there are two references to "Tree-men" in the "The Tale of Eärendel" (Book of Lost Tales 2), but it's hard to say whether they are a premonition of Ents or just a feature to add an exotic feel to exotic places (they're listed among pygmies, cannibalistic sarqindi, spices and fire-mountains).

~ There is nothing at all on the origin of the idea in the LotR-related History of Middle-earth volume save for an explanation in The Return of the Shadow (The First Phase: XI From Weathertop to the Ford, "Note on the Entish Lands") that "Entish Dales, Entish Lands" in the early map sketches has nothing to do with the later Ents, but is derived from Old English ent 'giant'; in the later maps, when the word "ent" had acquired a different meaning, they have become Ettendales and Ettenmoors, from OE eoten also 'giant'.

~ In a letter to W.H. Auden (Letter 163), Tolkien stated that he did not consciously invent the Ents, but that they stem from his disappointment with Macbeth: He felt let down by the way in which "great Birnam wood" marched against Macbeth "to high Dunsinane hill", and wanted to really let the trees march to war.

~ Apart from some editorial changes (one of which was to remove a mention of the sun existing since the beginning of Arda), the text in the published Silmarillion was lifted entirely from an essay called “Of the Ents and the Eagles” that Tolkien wrote no earlier than 1958-1959.

~ The other mentions of them in a non-LotR HoME volumes are in Morgoth’s Ring including them in a list of reasoning beings and a brief excerpt from Letter 247 in The War of the Jewels, where they help Beren.

Food for Thought

~ Do you think the story of Abraham and Isaac inspired Aulë's "sacrifice"? Could this have been a conscious choice on Tolkien's part due to the other Dwarven parallels to Judaism he pointed out in Letter 176?

~ Tolkien was never able to resolve the issue of where female Dwarves came from. Which version—if any—do you find the most appealing? Do you have your own idea?

~ This chapter integrates two later additions to Tolkien's world – Ents and Dwarves as people on par with Elves and Men rather than fairytale-creatures – into the fabric of the Silmarillion. Tolkien never did the same for Hobbits. Why do you think that is? Where do you think Hobbits come from?

Works Cited

~ The Silmarillon, "Of Aulë and Yavanna"
~ The Book of Lost Tales 1, Gilfanon’s Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli, "The Awakening of Men According to the Earlier Outlines"
~ The Book of Lost Tales 2, “The Nauglafring”
~ The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, Annal 104
~ The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, "The Lhammas," 9
~ The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, "Concerning the Dwarves"
~ The Book of Lost Tales 2, "The Tale of Eärendel"
~ The Return of the Shadow, The First Phase: XI From Weathertop to the Ford, "Note on the Entish Lands"
~ Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 163
~ The War of the Jewels, Part Three, "Of the Ents and Eagles"
~ Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The Second Phase, "Laws and Customs among the Eldar", Laws A, Note (i)
~ The War of the Jewels, The Tale of the Years
~ Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 176


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it! (The questions are starting points, not the only things to discuss.)

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole.

“Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor” and “Of Thingol and Melian” are due on February 9.

Comments

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I love Aulë. Along with Ulmo, he is one of my favorites among the Valar. And Aulë and Yavanna are my favorite couple. There are very few amusing or funny stories in The Silmarillion, but Tolkien allows his dry sense of humor to seep into his descriptions of this couple. Anyone who has ever been married can relate to the contradictions between the two of them. I get a huge chuckle out of Aulë and Yavanna’s cleared opposed interests. Yavanna worries about preservation of the forests and the trees for soon-to-come Children of Ilúvatar and Aulë needs that wood for his smithing and other things! One of my favorite quotes/discussions between Aulë and Yavanna concerns that question. I can visualize it so clearly. She interrupts him at his work to one more time yammer on and on about leaving the trees unmolested and his laconic response is "'Nonetheless, they will have need of wood' said Aulë, and he went on with his smithy work." The Silmarillion,"Of Aulë and Yavanna."

One might think Yavanna would have been happier paired with Oromë, that they might have more common interests, but life is not like that. Opposites attract. Fangirl swooning over what an adorable couple they make. Anthropomorphism on my part here? Sure. But Aulë must have been very familiar with the human form spending as much time as he did moving among the Noldor.

The other interesting thing about Aulë is his connection to the Bad Boys of The Silmarillion. His name is often connected to that of Melkor for comparison and contrasts in the work. And Sauron was an apprentice to Aulë. Fëanor trained under Aulë as well. And the craftsmen and scientists of the Noldor particularly appealed to Aulë.

. . . the Noldor were beloved of Aulë, and he and his people came often among them. Great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers. They were changeful in speech, for they had great love of words, and sought ever to find names more fit for all things that they knew or imagined. And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms.  --The Silmarillion, "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië."

Unlike the worst of those overreaching rebels he is often associated with, while Aulë is shown as independent-minded and critical at times, there is never a question that despite his desire to create works and exploit nature around him that he was never anything but modest and generous relating to the works of his labor and his technical proclivities and is able to consider and compromise when pressed by either Ilúvatar himself or his fellow Valar.

I could go on and on, but will cut off here since I am the first comment on this board.  (Not self p[imping here, but I do raise some of this questions in my SWG Biography of Aulë (http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/archive/home/viewstory.php?sid=763&chapter=7).
Truth be told, it written several years ago. and I know a lot more now than I did then--pretty sure I would write very differently today. But still it raising some interesting issues.)
 

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Like you, I really like the dry humour and down-to-earthness of this chapter (rare indeed in The Silmarillion). At the same time, I feel uncomfortable that Yavanna gets "put in her place" (so to say), not once but twice - once by Aulë being all "Yeah whatever, they'll need wood", and before that by Manwë being all "Yeah no, your trees are actually too small for my eagles, mountains rock". I normally steer away from all the "Was Tolkien misogynist?!" stuff, but these two incidences really do feel like a case of "men make the decisions" and "feeble women" put into the story.
(As it happens, I'm currently re-reading Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, and there's a bit - also in the letters - where he hands some pearl of wisdom about marriage to Christopher: "There are many things that a man feels legitimate even though they cause a fuss. [...] Such matters may arise frequently - the glass of beer, the pipe, the non writing of letters, the other friend, etc., etc. If the other side's claims really are unreasonable (as they are at times between the dearest lovers and most loving married folk) they are much better met by above board refusal and 'fuss' than subterfuge." (Humphrey Carpenter, JRR Tolkien - A Biography. Part Four 1925 - 1949(i). "V Northmoor Road".) While I guess it's fair advice to say "don't lie about it to your partner - either stop it or insist that it's legitimate", I really don't like the implication that "the other side's" (that is, the woman's) opinion may well be unreasonable and therefore just ignored. I certainly think it's unfair to shrug Yavanna's worries for her creation off as "unreasonable" (or "yammering"! ;)). Sure, it can't be helped, but there are better ways to communicate that than "Nonetheless they will have need of wood"...
But maybe I'm just being touchy here!

One might think Yavanna would have been happier paired with Oromë

I'm not certain Yavanna would have been happier with Oromë's hunting habits than with Aulë's fuel-burning habits, TBH, but maybe more relevantly, in the early drafts of the mythology, Oromë was meant to be Yavanna's son (e.g. BoLT 1, The Coming of the Valar: "Oromë is the son of Aulë and Palúrien..."). Although Tolkien later changed that detail, it may explain why he never paired off those two lovers of trees and nature?

that he was never anything but modest and generous relating to the works of his labor and his technical proclivities and is able to consider and compromise when pressed by either Ilúvatar himself or his fellow Valar.

Yes, I agree that Aulë quite neatly illustrates what Tolkien thought a good sub-creator should be like: conscientuous in his work, but humble and generous about it. And of course willing to bow to the greater good...

(For the record, I do love Aulë. I just can't help stumbling across details that don't sit quite well with me!)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I'm currently re-reading Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, and there's a bit - also in the letters - where he hands some pearl of wisdom about marriage to Christopher

OMG! That stuff in Carpenter's biography (which I am quite sure is not exaggerated) could put a person off Tolkien FOREVER. The stuff about Tolkien being opposed to having a refrigerator in the house just about finished me! You can tell he wasn't the one doing the cooking and housework!

I will have to re-read that section. I thought despite Aule's going back to work and Yavanna stomping off, that she essentially won that fight--morally at least. One of the underlying themes in Tolkien work is idyllic nature vs. destructive technology/progress. (Everyone seems surprised to hear he finally got a manual typewriter!) But Tolkien is a curious guy and has a fine, disciplined mind, so he is fascinated with nature AND science, how things work. Still he fears that technology in other ways--he feels a pull for a better balance that he does not see happening. It is not a comfortable settling in or compromise for him.

His sympathetic descriptions of the Noldor show that he is torn. He has some lovely things to say about science and magic. But in the end, he falls down on the side of wishing to undo the rape by industrialization of the English countryside and the rapaciousness of the greedy industrialist or amoral/unprincipled scientist (think about the cleansing of the Shire, for example, and the fall of the Noldor--in the final analysis no good comes from that kind of technological experimentation in his stories). There are scientists among us who can argue and dissect this in finer detail than I can and with better emphasis/understanding. But I think that the technos in The Silmarillion in general are the morally dubious ones and Yavanna represents the good guys without any of the undeserved (in my opinion) taint that Aule might carry before some of his fellow Valar.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

You can tell he wasn't the one doing the cooking and housework!

Haha, indeed!
But hey, it wasn't just any old typewriter - it was a posh one with extra letters (italics and æ,ð and þ) on a revolving plate! Quite high-tech at the time, I'm sure! (WHY CAN I EVEN REMEMBER SUCH DETAILS.)

That's a really interesting perspective, that Yavanna may actually have been the winner of that argument (morally or beyond). And you're definitely right that there's some element of fascination in technology (if used right and harming none, of course ;)) as well as the condemnation we're all expecting. Maybe Tolkien is acknowledging here that some progress may be useful or even necessary, even at the cost of... something. Trees, for instance. Hm! Food for thought indeed!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting perspective, that Yavanna may actually have been the winner of that argument (morally or beyond)

I think of it like this: Yavanna did win. She got her Ents, who will guard the forests against Dwarvish axes.

However, what she's doing at the end is going back to her husband to tease him about her victory. The words "Now let thy children beware!" should probably have "Nyah nyah nyah! " appended to them...

But Aulë, no doubt wisely, refuses to rise to her bait.


(I also think Tolkien's own sympathies would definitely be with Yavanna here, as a lover of trees; but even he would have to recognise that people still need wood. Aulë's comment is thus a jab at himself, too.)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Yes. That's how I read it.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I like that take. Didn't occur to me before, but now that you've pointed it out, I'm happily going to adopt it! :D

[independence1776]

There are very few amusing or funny stories in The Silmarillion, but Tolkien allows his dry sense of humor to seep into his descriptions of this couple.

That's one of my favorite things about this chapter.

Unlike the worst of those overreaching rebels he is often associated with, while Aulë is shown as independent-minded and critical at times, there is never a question that despite his desire to create works and exploit nature around him that he was never anything but modest and generous relating to the works of his labor and his technical proclivities and is able to consider and compromise when pressed by either Ilúvatar himself or his fellow Valar.

Thank you for these points. They make me view him more as a rounded character than I've done in the past. (Though I've always been inclinded to view him more sympathetically than some of the others, chiefly because of him telling the other Valar to back off a bit when they asked for the Silmarils. To me, he seems to get more than the others what it means to be a creator.)

Also, thank you for the link to the bio!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

One of the things I like about how the Valar are presented as a group is that there is differentiation. I appreciate very much Aule's remarks to the others about the Silmarils: “But Aulë the Maker said: 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'” The Silmarillion, "The Flight of the Noldor."

You put it very well, ". . . he seems to get more than the others what it means to be a creator." Also, others have speculated that perhaps the Valar did not understand that Feanor might have put so much of himself into the making of the Silmarils that the unmaking of them would, in fact, would literally kill him. It's worth consideration relying upon Aulë's and Feanor's language alone in those passage and the magic involved in their creation remains vague, but clearly involves deep arcane arts of some sort and not straightforward or pure science. The details of the story relating to their creation takes on an element of inexplicable magic. A bit like Sauron's creation of the One Ring.

[elliska.livejournal.com]

Feanor might have put so much of himself into the making of the Silmarils that the unmaking of them would, in fact, would literally kill him.

Yes! As much as I think Feanor made some mistakes later I have never looked down on him for not giving up the Silmarils here. I think, like Sauron and the One Ring (but for good, not evil), Feanor put so much of himself into the Silmarils that undoing them would have undone him.

And, of all the Valar, though I love most what Yavanna represents, I admire most Aule. He always seems to me to be the most reasonable of them all. Even when he makes the dwarves, his response when he is 'caught' is so humble and perfect. And the line you cited, where he tells everyone to give Feanor some time is one of my favorite lines.

[independence1776]

I appreciate those differences, too. I just don't think about the Valar much at all; they're not really on my radar much. And that was the line I was thinking of!

I tend to be in that camp about the breaking killing Fëanor. (Which makes me curious as to how the renewal at the end when he breaks them then works, if its supposed to be Arda Unmarred.)

The details of the story relating to their creation takes on an element of inexplicable magic. A bit like Sauron's creation of the One Ring.

Yes! Down to similar addictive/possessive properties.

Related to that, on a humorous note, there's an icon I've seen that has a picture of the Ring and the Silmarils and reads, "If there's one thing I learned from fandom, it's to stay the hell away from jewelry."

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Finrod would say, 'How about the return of the ring of Barahir?'

[independence1776]

Haha! Okay, that was mean of me. But too true.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

We could probably go on and on. There is Thingol and the Nauglamír also.

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

I love the dry humour too.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

"unreasonable" (or "yammering"!

I missed your reference to that remark. Do I really have explain that the remark was tongue-in-cheek and intended to be funny? For future reference--I am participating in this discussion for kicks and grins. I love this stuff but I am not working here. I make jokes. Now I feel all misunderstood and defensive.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Now I feel all misunderstood and defensive.

Me too! I didn't mean to attack you by referring back to what you said. I was actually assuming that you were using that word tongue-in-cheeky. It's just that there are some who don't, and my snark was directed at them rather than you. (Hence the ";)", too.) Sorry about the misunderstanding!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Sorry! Defensive because I said something tongue-in-cheek recently somewhere else in this fandom recently and got a scathing response. Less humor sometimes in this fandom than there is even in The Silmarillion. And a lot of sacred cows.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

No problem! There certainly are a lot of sacred cows, and I'm sure most of us have been bitten at least once. Glad we could clear it up though!

[hhimring]

I'm not really sure that Ents (and the Eagles) really do end up on a par with Elves and Men here or even with Dwarves in this account. There is no explicit act of adoption, as there is for the Dwarves. I'm not doubting they are people--after all, in LOTR, Treebeard and Quickbeam clearly are persons!
But this account does leave more room for speculation whether they might not be originally minor Maiar or something else altogether.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Unpopular view: I wish Ents were not people! There is a prejudice here against slow talkers--I have been in New York City for well over fifteen years now! Just kidding! If you like Ent-people go for it. I really have no opinion.

I do feel strongly about the Great Eagles (Fingon, Maedhros, Rescue!) They seem bigger than people to me more like Maiar! I always thought devised by Manwe meant there were Maiar devoted to his service--I never actually thought seriously about it.

[hhimring]

Both the Ents and the Eagles seem to be capable of producing offspring.
Whatever that proves...

[independence1776]

Maybe their existence is implicit adoption? I really don't know. (I don't think they're Maiar originally or a permutation thereof, but there's definitely a question mark as to where they fit.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'm pretty certain that neither Ents nor Eagles go among the "Children of Eru" (adopted or otherwise). Manwë's Eagles seem to be a weird mix of Maia and animal (minor Maiar indeed, perhaps), whereas the Ents are... just something different. An incarnation of Yavanna's greatest worry, or something. Though of course that doesn't help to explain anything, either!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

"Eru hath spoken, saying ... 'The thought of Yavanna will ... summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and olvar, and some will dwell therein,... for a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young'".

(Silm. Ch3)

I'd interpret that as meaning that the Ents and Eagles are indeed embodied spirits, of the same general type as the Maiar - or to be even more specific, Treebeard and Gandalf are (very) distant cousins!


Sidebar:
The impression I get is that Tolkien used the word 'Maiar' - which I'm not sure he ever gave an etymology for, strangely enough? - to describe specifically those members of the Ainur who followed the Valar into Arda and agreed to work for them and serve them: they are "the people of the Valar". Equally, 'Valar' ('Power') is simply a term of respect given to the 15 14 most powerful and respected of those Ainur; they're not inherently different in nature to the Maiar.

Meanwhile, creatures like Ents and Eagles, and Ungoliant, and those dream-spirits that Irmo is Master of, and maybe even you-know-who-a-dong-dillo, are presumably also Ainur; but ones who stayed outside the hierarchy of Valar and Maiar and instead found their way into Arda independently.

Sidebar-of-a-sidebar: in 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) Tolkien wrote that ayanūz was the Valar and Maiar's own name for themselves in their own language, and since the Eldar couldn't pronounce that easily, it became 'Ainur' in Quenya!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Oooh, very good thought. I just checked back in the BoLT 1, which still has all those cute sprites (like sylphs and pixies and mermaids) coming along with the Valar; they're all given specific names (like Mánir and Nandini and Oarni) but nowhere is it said that they can be lumped together under the term of "Maiar". They're less powerful than the Valar, and they're certainly Ainur, but they are not Maiar - they are something else. (I have to admit that so far I've always read "Ainur who came into Middle-earth = Valar and Maiar (and Melkor) and nothing else", which as you point out isn't really correct!)

(And sylphs, at least - that is, spirits of air - can reproduce, so that would work out, too!)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I likewise always assumed that 'Maiar' was just a generic term for the non-Valar Ainur who entered Arda, and that's how fandom usually uses the term - but I just today realised that Tolkien himself never used it that way. The Maiar are always only "the people of the Valar", closely associated with them and bound to their service.

But there are plenty of references to other spirits "coming from outside". Tulkas too; he wasn't one of the original Valar but a late arrival.

[elliska.livejournal.com]

and maybe even you-know-who-a-dong-dillo

Ooo! A very good explanation for him. And a LOL expression of it. Thank you!

Edited to correct typo.

[independence1776]

Meanwhile, creatures like Ents and Eagles, and Ungoliant, and those dream-spirits that Irmo is Master of, and maybe even you-know-who-a-dong-dillo, are presumably also Ainur; but ones who stayed outside the hierarchy of Valar and Maiar and instead found their way into Arda independently.

Huh. I'd always thought of the Ainur as divided into Valar (the top dogs) and the Maiar (everyone else), which is why the Eagles and especially the Ents being Maiar never sat well with me. (And that apart from the reproduction issues.) They didn't seem to be servants or beholden to the Valar, but instead independent beings who respected their authority. So I really like your take on it.

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

I always wonder why Eru objected to the creation of the dwarfes at first. Or what Eru intended for Aule in the first place. I wager Aule's attention was split between the Noldor and his children, which could have made a difference in Two Trees Age and the First Age. I still love Aule very much, but since the Noldor are supposed to be under his domain (like the Teleri are under Ulmo's), I want to know what role the dwarfes played in this relationship. Did they know about the dwarfes, when they were learning from Aule?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The way I understand it, Eru is "annoyed" (or affects annoyance, perhaps) because Aulë knew that Eru was planning to put his Children into the world, and instead of waiting for them, tried to create his own - and without asking permission first! That may have looked a bit like what Melkor kept doing, trying to appropriate Eru's world for himself.
But since Aulë immediately explained that his motivation was entirely different, and even would have destroyed his creation if he'd had to, he was forgiven. I think it's entirely possible that Eru knew what Aulë would do from the start (unless the Valar do have some limited form of Free Will), just as he knew what Melkor would do in the long run (and yet he acted displeased about that). Two weeks ago, someone suggested that Eru is in fact play-acting displeasure or surprise for the sake of the Ainur, who with their limited horizon may not otherwise understand how they should feel about something (e.g. Melkor's rebellion or Aulë's "presumption").
(Not sure this is making sense...?)

Aulë is a tutor of the Noldor, but neither their ruler nor their puppet-master (just like the Teleri learn from Ulmo, but are neither ruled nor controlled by him) - the "Children of Eru" aren't under any particular Vala's domain, they just turn to those Valar who best match their interests first, as I understand it - so I don't think it matters whether Aulë's attention is "split" between those two. After the "adoption", even the Dwarves don't need his constant attention anymore. (I'm sure his sympathies were often divided, though!)
Whether or not the Noldor learned about the Dwarves from Aulë is up to speculation, I guess - at least as far as the published Silmarillion is concerned! In earlier versions, what with all the guesswork that Dwarves have grown out of rock and will return to rock when they die, it seems that the Noldor were kept in the dark, and only learned about Aulë's creation of the Dwarves from the Dwarves themselves.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I thought of the whole biosphere as Yavanna's creation. Every living thing is her child, which makes her Mother Nature and therefore simultaneously kind and benevolent and red in tooth and claw, which is where Orome (her brother-in-law) fits in. The Ents are not her children, they're embodied Maiar of various sorts, so they are, so to speak, her junior relatives, like Melian.

And of course both Aule and Yavanna are patrons of technology, though Tolkien's seriously romanticised view of natural history did not take this into account. . Life sciences are Yavanna's province, physical sciences are Aulë's. The Yavannildi are geneticists, rather like the Cetagandan haut women in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan novels. And both Aulë and Yavanna co-operate with Manwe and Ulmo in ecological sciences. Melkor tried to compete, but Yavanna already had selection pressure built into her model, so his activities were just subsumed into business as usual in the eco-system of Middle-earth.

I have always thought that if anyone among the Valar was going to rebel in future it was going to be Yavanna, in rage at what the Children of Eru had done to her children.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The Ents are not her children, they're embodied Maiar of various sorts

Are they? (I have to admit that the Ents as Maiar are something I've never considered before, so now I'm wondering why I've overlooked this for so long! Argh!)

but Yavanna already had selection pressure built into her model

What a great way of putting it! XD And you're right, "biological" sciences would of course be Yavanna's province. (And eco-terrorism, maybe?)

I have always thought that if anyone among the Valar was going to rebel in future it was going to be Yavanna, in rage at what the Children of Eru had done to her children.

Another interesting idea! This chapter makes it look as though she's reconciled with the damage that's going to be done to her creation, as long as the occasional tree-killer is stomped by Ents and the occasional hunter gored by a boar. But I guess watching the increasing pressure on her children, possibly without respect or gratitude, as Aulë puts it, may well make her reconsider...
I wonder whether she'd rebel outright, or rather tend towards petty revenge (some form of killer virus, maybe)?

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

A virus that exterminates most of the human species wouldn't be a petty revenge!

And who knows, perhaps she's tried it already. I'm given to understand that the current human species descends from a very small number of individuals, numbering in the mere thousands or less. And she wouldn't even have to do anything actively. Population boom and die-back is built into her model too...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Well, wiping out people because they annoyed you is petty. So it would be a petty (if satisfying) thing for Yavanna to do.
For the people, of course, it would be horrid...

SHE'S DOING IT ALL THE TIME, ISN'T SHE. (Please pardon the capslock. This is just begging to be written, though!)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes but they would have annoyed her by wiping out large chunks of her creation. So really it would be defence of the rest of the biosphere, which is quite a large thing.

Yes, I think she's doing it all the time. Quietly. I don't think she even has to be active about it. Just to let her existing system of checks and balances work without doing anything to stop it. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

[independence1776]

I have always thought that if anyone among the Valar was going to rebel in future it was going to be Yavanna, in rage at what the Children of Eru had done to her children.

I like that idea! As you said, nature-- and thus Yavanna-- isn't always kind.

[elliska.livejournal.com]

I have always thought that if anyone among the Valar was going to rebel in future it was going to be Yavanna, in rage at what the Children of Eru had done to her children.

Oh that idea has to be written! What an awesome plot bunny/challenge prompt!

[dreamflower]

~ This chapter integrates two later additions to Tolkien's world – Ents and Dwarves as people on par with Elves and Men rather than fairytale-creatures – into the fabric of the Silmarillion. Tolkien never did the same for Hobbits. Why do you think that is? Where do you think Hobbits come from?

Perhaps he did and Christopher just hasn't revealed it to us yet? ;) (I kind of doubt it though.)

My opinion is based on my own feeling that as Elves and Men and Dwarves were directly created, so were hobbits. While Tolkien does say they are related to Men, it's clear from many of their physical aspects--not merely their height, but their feet, their ears, their metabolism, their longevity, their "toughness"--they are very different. To my mind, in Arda the most important kinship is not physical, but spiritual: Hobbits are among the Secondborn because they are mortal, and their ultimate Fate lies there. (Just as the adopted Dwarves are also mortal, with the occasional exception of a Durin once in a while.)

As to the female Dwarves, I'd go with either the second or third scenario for preference. Although once I came across a humorous ficlet in which Aule originally created the Dwarves sexless (hey, biology is his wife's field!) and so when Eru ensouls them, he also alters them, and makes three female and four of them male, though he doesn't change their appearance otherwise. It was quite funny, and Eru and Yavanna were laughing at Aule behind his back afterwards. I wish I could recall where I read it--it's been a while.

[independence1776]

I doubt that, too. (Then again, I have no idea how much is squirreled away, but it seems all the major things have been published somewhere.)

Huh. I took "related to Man" as the Hobbits being an evolutionary off-shoot. But I do agree that kinship does seem to be based more on whether one is mortal versus not. Lindir even says in Fellowship of the Ring(Many Meetings), talking about a song collaboration between Aragorn and Bilbo, "It is not easy for us [Elves] to tell the difference between two mortals."

If you go looking for the ficlet, I hope you find it! It's always terrible wanting to reread something and not knowing where it is. (Too many fics over the years…)

[dreamflower]

Well, since I like to be a literalist with The Silm, evolution's not much of a factor to me, LOL! (That's within my own writing. Oddly enough, most of my favorite fic for reading is just the opposite.) But it is fairly clear that it's the fate of a being's soul that determines whether he or she is Firstborn or Secondborn.

I'm constantly bumping up against that--you can read a LOT of fic over ten years! And over time a lot of fic just disappears.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

About ents and Manwë's eagles: couldn't they have the same relation to regular trees and regular birds that elves have to men? Essentially the same (they can have offspring together) but more advanced, with greater understanding and communication skills?

What Yavanna says about trees
Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing
always reminds me of the story Tolkien tells (in the biography, in the letters? I don't have the books at hand :() about watching his neighbour cut down a tree in the garden which did no harm and went unlamented by everybody except Tolkien and the squirrels who lived in it.

Yavanna's revenge: just look at the weather! (Manwë lent a hand in the atmosphere!)

[independence1776]

That's a thought-- it makes sense, at the very least. Doesn't Treebeard say something about some trees becoming Entish and vice versa?

Yes, what Yavanna says reminds me of that story, too. (I briefly glanced through Letters and didn't find it, so it's probably in Carpenter's biography.)