SWG Re-Read - "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië" Discussion Post

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Chapter 5 – Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië


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Summary

In this chapter, the Vanyar and Noldor reach the westernmost shores of Middle-earth. To ferry them to Aman, Ulmo uproots an island, and thus the first Elves come into the Blessed Realm, where they begin to settle. The Teleri, being at that time too far from the sea to hear Ulmo's summons, remain behind, only journeying to the shore after the Vanyar and Noldor have left. Their leader is now Olwë, the brother of Elwë. The Teleri live by the shores of the Great Sea for a long time; they become friends of Ossë and Uinen. When Ulmo at the request of Finwë returns to Middle-earth to bring the Teleri to Aman, Ossë is displeased. Many Teleri are now willing to leave Middle-earth, but some are persuaded by Ossë to remain. They become the Falathrim, led by Círdan the Shipwright. Those Teleri who are still searching for Elwë also stay behind. Elwë and Melian later find them and become their king and queen.

Ossë is still unhappy that most of the Teler have left, so he follows the island-ferry and calls out to them. They hear him and beg Ulmo to stop their journey, which Ulmo does. The island remains in the Bay of Eldamar and is called Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle.

In the meantime, the Noldor and Vanyar have built their own city in Valinor: Tirion upon the hill of Túna, located in a gap between the mountains that encircle Valinor. From this place, the Eldar can see both the ocean and the Two Trees. The Vanyar have formed a deep friendship with Manwë and Varda, while the Noldor are especially fond of Aulë.

At last, the Teleri decide to leave Tol Eressëa and come to Aman proper. Ulmo asks Ossë to teach them how to make ships, and when these ships are built, they are drawn by swans across the Bay of Eldamar. When the Teleri build their own city (with the help of the Noldor), they call it Alqualondë, "Haven of the Swans".

The Vanyar eventually wish to be closer to the Two Trees and to Manwë, and leave Tirion to live at the foot of Taniquetil. Ingwë, lord of the Vanyar, is considered the High King of all the Elves. Finwë is king of the Noldor, and in time fathers three sons on two wives: Fëanor, son of Míriel, and Fingolfin and Finarfin, sons of Indis. Fëanor has seven sons: Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amros and Amrad. Fingolfin's children are Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel. Finarfin's children are Finrod Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. (Most of these people are going to be instrumental in the later history of Middle-earth, so it's useful to get acquainted to their names early on.)



Our Favourite Quotes

"In the north these shores, in the ancient days after the Battle of the Powers, bent ever westward, until in the northernmost parts of Arda only a narrow sea divided Aman, upon which Valinor was built, from the Hither Lands; but this narrow sea was filled with grinding ice, because of the violence of the frosts of Melkor."

"Thus it came to be that the Teleri, who were from the beginning lovers of water, and the fairest singers of all the Elves, were after enamoured of the seas, and their songs were filled with the sound of waves upon the shore."

"Greatly though [Elwë] had desired to see again the light of the Trees, in the face of Melian he beheld the light of Aman as in an unclouded mirror, and in that light he was content. His people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar; and a high doom was before him."

"Even among the radiant flowers of the Tree-lit gardens of Valinor [the Noldor and Vanyar] longed still at times to see the stars; and therefore a gap was made in the great walls of the Pelóri, and there in a deep valley that ran down to the sea the Eldar raised a high green hill: Túna it was called."

"Then through the Calacirya, the Pass of Light, the radiance of the Blessed Realm streamed forth, kindling the dark waves to silver and gold, and it touched the Lonely Isle, and its western shore grew green and fair. There bloomed the first flowers that ever were east of the Mountains of Aman."

"And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor."

"There [the Teleri] dwelt, and if they wished they could see the light of the Trees, and could tread upon the golden streets of Valmar and the crystal stairs of Tirion upon Túna, the green hill; but most of all they sailed in their swift ships on the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or walked in the waves upon the shore with their hair gleaming in the light beyond the hill."

"And many pearls [the Teleri] won for themselves from the sea, and their halls were of pearl, and of pearl were the mansions of Olwë at Alqualondë, the Haven of the Swans, lit with many lamps. For that was their city, and the haven of their ships; and those were made in the likeness of swans, with beaks of gold and eyes of gold and jet."

"For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed."



Earlier Versions

~ In the first version of this story, Ossë's relationship with the Teleri is quite different. To begin with, he doesn't care about them, but is very much offended because Ulmo is using the same island ferry that once Ossë used to bring the Valar to Aman without asking him first (2). For this reason, he assaults the island (with Uinen's help!) when Ulmo is trying to bring the Teleri to Valinor, stops its progress, and eventually roots it to the sea floor. The Teleri are therefore stranded against their own will, and take refuge in the caves of what is now the Lonely Isle. (2)

~ It is Ulmo, not Ossë, who teaches the Teleri sea-lore and music in The Book of Lost Tales. The Teleri's piping and love of the sea eventually endear them to Ossë, however. (2)

~ Ulmo actually considers making war on Ossë to deliver the Teleri into Valinor, but the other Valar do not allow it. His chance comes when Ossë settles many seabirds on and around Tol Eressëa. The Teleri harness these birds to their rafts on the lakes of Tol Eressëa, and some even venture out to sea where Ulmo sees their new invention. Asking help of Oromë and Aulë, Ulmo secretly has a fleet of ships built to ferry the Teleri to Valinor. Ossë does not discover this until too late because Aulë cunningly makes the ships look like swans. The fleet is well underway when Ossë realises what is happening; but as he has now grown fond of the Teleri, he will not sink their ships and lets them go. (2)

~ Ossë's wrath and rebellion continue to be the reason for the rooting of Tol Eressëa in "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" and "The Quenta". However, Ossë no longer needs to be tricked: He releases the Teleri when Ulmo asks it of him. He even gives them swans to pull their boats, which the Teleri now build under Ulmo's tutelage without help from either Aulë or Oromë (3; 4; 8).

~ In other versions, the ferry island is what has remained of the Valar's very first dwelling in Arda (3; 4; 8). In these versions of the narrative, Ossë no longer acts as he does out of anger about Ulmo's choice of vessel, but because he has become enamoured of the Teleri. In the "Quenta Silmarillion", the Teleri first beg Ulmo to stay their journey and root Tol Eressëa in the Bay of Eldamar. However, Ulmo does not yet understand and condone the Teleri's desire to stay their journey; instead, he is angry (8). In "The Annals of Aman", Ossë becomes the one who teaches the Teleri ship-building (10, §75).

~ Tirion upon Túna undergoes a variety of name changes. In The Book of Lost Tales, it is named Kôr like the hill upon which it is built (2). In later versions, Kôr (also spelled Côr) is purely the name of the hill, and the city now is named Tûn (3 – 6; 8). The "Annals of Aman" first introduce the name of Tirion, with Túna becoming the name of the hill. (10)

~ In The Book of Lost Tales, the Vanyar and Noldor receive shoots of both Laurelin and Telperion (2). This detail then completely disappears, until "The Annals of Aman" report that Yavanna gives the White Tree Galathilion to the Noldor (10, §69). It is not yet clear whether this is supposed to be the White Tree that later grows in Gondor, or merely its ancestor as is later stated in The Silmarillion.

~ Initially, there is no link between Fëanor and the king of the Noldor, then named Nólemë (2)."The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" names Fëanor as the second son of Finn (Finwë) the Noldorin king, and Fingolfin as the firstborn (3). "The Quenta" names Fëanor first. It is also where the seven sons of Fëanor make their first appearance, along with three children of Fingolfin (named Finweg, Turgon and Isfin the White). Finarfin, then called Finrod, is father of Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod and Egnor (4); Galadriel does not appear until "The later Quenta Silmarillion" (9).

~ The Noldor initially created (all) jewels rather than finding them in the earth. Aulë has taught them to make a crystalline substance, but the Noldor come up with the art of dyeing these gems by using "the juices of roses and red flowers", "the water of the creek of Kôr" and various other means (2).

~ There is scant detail in "The Later Annals of Valinor" in The Lost Road and it is more of a summary of events than anything else. (6)

~ The version in "Quenta Silmarillion" in The Lost Road has not become a seperate chapter, as it is part of the chapter that extends from "Of the Coming of Elves" through "Of Eldamar," but Tolkien did break it into the subheadings that became the seperate chapters. (7)

~ This is also the first time that Amrod and Amras are explicitely named as twins and the passage about all non-evil creatures living in Aman appeared. (8)

~ It is in "The later Quenta Silmarillion" that the Lonely Isle loses its connection with the Valar's first habitation. It is also here that Ulmo first understands the Teleri's desire to stay in the starlight. Some changes were made to the names (notably Aredhel's description expanded, Galadriel added and Orodreth struck out as a son). (9)

~ "The Annals of Aman" in Morgoth's Ring have many new elements, among them Ulmo's music turning fear of the sea into desire, the Noldor mining gems rather than creating them, the appearance of the relation of Finarfin's children to Thingol, and Círdan's and Galadriel's appearances from The Lord of the Rings. (10)

~ For this subject matter, there is very little difference between the "Annals of Aman" in Morgoth's Ring and "The Gray Annals" in The War of the Jewels, to the point where Christopher Tolkien speculates that the latter was copied from the former. (11)

~ There is a short essay in "Last Writings" in The Peoples of Middle-earth about Círdan, of which almost everything is new. In it is stated that he's kin to Elwë and Olwë; that he and his people remained a distinct group from the rest of the Sindar (they even spoke an older version of the language); and that the Valar warned him not to attempt the building of an ocean-worthy ship when he missed traveling to Valinor on the Lonely Isle, but instead to wait. It also states that shipbuilding was not not taught to the Elves by Ossë, but was instead already a known craft (which would explain why the Falathrim build the same ships as the Teleri do!). (12)




Food for Thought

~ Why do you think Tolkien abandoned the idea of the Elves receiving scions of both Trees?

~ Ossë's role in this chapter has been changed quite a bit throughout its different incarnations. From a jealous deity who waylays the Teleri and almost provokesUlmo into warfare, he turns into a somewhat selfish but ultimately benevolent influence on the Teleri's life. Why do you think Tolkien changed his mind about Ossë's role?

~ Aside from the Teleri's fishing, the hunting of Celegorm, Amrod and Amras, and a later mention of the "fields and pastures of Yavanna" and the "first gathering of fruits" (13), Tolkien does not exactly venture much information on how the Elves fed themselves – or generally dealt with everyday concerns. Have you ever thought about Elven everyday life and economy in more detail?

~ After the Vanyar left, The Silmarillion states that the Noldor and Teleri grew closer. How much converse do you think the Vanyar had with the other two groups? Was it solely diplomatic, trade-related, or more common than stated?

~ Fëanor and his sons explore Valinor, and it says in Morgoth's Ring that Nerdanel's own wandering is how she met Fëanor. (14) How common do you think it was for people of the Eldar to explore Valinor?



Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 5. Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "V. The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The earliest 'Silmarillion'".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor".

(6) The Lost Road, "The Later Annals of Valinor," V.Y. 2000 – V.Y. 2500

(7) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 3 (a) "Of the Coming of Elves" introductory note

(8) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 3 (c) Of Kôr and Alqualondë, §35, 37, 41, 45

(9) Morgoth's Ring. The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalië" §35, 37, 42

(10) Morgoth's Ring. The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "The Annals of Aman," §75, 66, 69, 79, 85, 70, 85

(11) The War of the Jewels, "The Grey Annals," §11—14 and their notes in the commentary

(12) The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings," Círdan

(13)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 8. Of the Darkening of Valinor".

(14) Morgoth's Ring "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"



Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

“Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor” is due March 9.

Comments

SWG Silm re-read (banners)

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User hhimring referenced to your post from SWG Silm re-read (banners) (http://hhimring.livejournal.com/82303.html) saying: [...] ve Bat Luthien. I'm trying to catch up at the moment. Chapter Five today! Discussion post here [...]

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

Personal Favourite Quote: "Feanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unkown."

For me it explains the frictions between Feanor and his silbings. He may have been the firstborn and the crownprince, but he wasn't a constant presence in court. Of course it created a rift between the Noldor, who lead an almost nomadic life (not unlike the Avari, I imagine) and those who remained in the city. Returning in semi-regular intervals for trade doesn't help to form attachments. At this point I also include my headcanon that Formenos was meant as a place, where Feanor and his craftsmen could build and create without interruption of someone stealing their ideas. Comparing them to guilds in the Middle-Ages, it is common to keep the secrets of a trade in the "family".

Combing this with the habit to name things, theoretical constructs or distinguish ideas, it doesn't surprise me that the Noldor chose to take against Morgoth later. I like to compare them to lawyers. People with extensive knowledge about rights, wrongs and consquences. (Does it make the Silmaril a case about copyright infringement?).

For my part, I don't get how the Vanyar fit into this. I often imagine them a bit like Gondolin: peaceful, but isolated. To leave Tirion after they had been living there with the Noldor, I tend to see them as sensitive people, their minds possessing almost telepathic abilities.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I am really not a fan of The Book of Lost Tales--I know, I know! So many people love the details. It's mainly a boring slough for me--largely the language and have to learn a whole bunch of names which are then abandoned, the memory of which only serves to confuse me.

The problem is that there are some great small details in The Book of Lost Tales which enhance the legendarium in a lot of ways. Not included among those, for me, is the whole moving-island, using a chunk of land as a ferryboat! I hate that part with a visceral hatred, what's the old fanfic cliche for a detail that does not work? "It pulls me right out of the story!" Makes me what to stop reading. Have to get past it instead of enjoying any part of that idea. I think because I am always yearning to imagine in at least a quasi-realistic way what things were like for the Eldar. What was the journey to the sea like? What were the differences and disagreements along the way? How did they deal with day-to-day life as they traveled? etc., etc.

Despite the lack of novelistic detail in The Silmarillion, there is so much development of character and convincing political and intellectual struggles among the Eldar, ethnic differences one might say. Their choices and differences ring true on a very human and nearly realistic levels. Then things like having to survive under starlight (duh? without photosynthesis? for uncountable years?) or an island ferrying people back and worth across a big ocean, just leave me cold and impatient to get to the better parts. I liked Greek and Roman mythology as a kid growing up, for example, and plenty of that was completely ridiculous if one tried to think about it in any practical way, but that was OK because one did not expect any of it to work.

Somehow The Silmarillion pulls me to empathize with and identify with the Eldar as more recognizably human to me and real. As soon as I got to this chapter on my first read of the Silm, I started finding myself taking sides and choosing favorites. Floating islands make my strong identification feel foolish and stupid and make me want to throw the book across the room. The work feels too big and too true for some the small details. This is a part where I cannot suspend my disbelief, or accept the green sun as Tolkien might say. I do not even want to try to imagine it; so glad it is gone from the later drafts!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

You raise some interesting issues here. I also made some lasting extrapolations from Feanor's frequent absences. He, in the next chapter shows how defensive he is of his birthright--Finwe's heir. However, he does seem not particularly interested in governance or administration, things which are important to a ruling monarch. It definitely sets up conflict. Fingolfin will be there, close at his father's side, assisting in the tedium of administration, while brilliant, mutable Feanor is absent, whether completely absorbed with his work or traveling and exploring. One cannot imagine Feanor, happily sitting in council with a bunch of bureaucrats listening to them drone on about tiny administrative details or budgets!

There is no indication in canon that Formenos existed before Feanor is exiled from Tirion, nor is there anything that suggests it did not. But you would not be the only Silm reader to imagine that it must have a prior existence. My reason for thinking it existed earlier is a case of extrapolating from real world history that political differences among peoples often are geographically-based and, like your suggestion, may involve work or livelihood, e.g., shared interest(s). So I imagined that those who later become the hardcore Feanorians might be comprised in part of groupings and communities that are not centered around the court and Tirion but in outlying areas and who have a long-standing identification with and support of Feanor. I can easily imagine as you suggest groupings drawn together for collaborative purposes involving craft/science./technology.

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

I agree that Feanor probably had little interest in administration etc.. He probably learnt from Mathan a lot about the inner workings of a guild, paying employees and taking students. I see him as someone, who made sure Noldor didn't grew bored with their active brilliant mindes. Giving how he explored a lot and tested new materials, it fit well for him. Probably didn't harm diplomatic relationships either, if he could use his craftmanship to talk to interested people despite their origins as Teler or Vanya, but he wouldn't have the patience or endurance to deal with people at home.

Which leads me to the question: What did Finwe do? Did he have a craft he started with? Today I would put him into urban management and city planing, something Fingolfin and Turgon learnt from him and even Formenos (no matter when) had to come from somewhere.

Still renders the impression that Fingolfin actually spend more time with his father than Feanor did. And if they rarely saw each other ... I wonder if they had gotten better along, if they hadn't been related like Tolkien originally planned. (This is fic worthy, I can feel the idea clawing it's way into my brain!)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I get the impression that Finwe has been principally a leader and organizer for so long that any craft he might once have pursued has been long neglected. He led his people for untold years, over mountains and to the sea, under difficult circumstances and then set about settling them in and around Tirion.

[independence1776]

For me it explains the frictions between Feanor and his silbings. He may have been the firstborn and the crownprince, but he wasn't a constant presence in court.

I think that's a large part of it-- people know his half-brothers rather than him. It seems that they'd be more inclinded to the day-to-day realities of ruling where Fëanor seems more interested in the larger scale duties. I also wonder if there was some wariness about exploring Valinor with only a handful of people, despite knowing they were safe, due to Morgoth and his minions kidnapping the Elves at Cuivenien who wandered away.

I don't get how the Vanyar fit into this. I often imagine them a bit like Gondolin: peaceful, but isolated. To leave Tirion after they had been living there with the Noldor, I tend to see them as sensitive people, their minds possessing almost telepathic abilities.

The Vanyar, I think, are the people who are happy with what they have. There's less of a drive to prove themselves.

As for the telepathic abilites: it's canon that all Elves (mortals, too) have some telepathic ability. It's in Return of the King, "Many Partings" that "[Elrond, Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and possibly others] did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." There's a more about it in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Essay VII Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, ii. A similar, though somewhat different, treatment is found in an essay called "Ósanwe-kenta" published in Vinyar Tengwar. (In any case, here's Tolkien Gateway's article on it.)

[independence1776]

Confession time: I only picked up BoLT to read seriously for this project, and even then, I still skim. (The name changes confuse me, too. I'm never sure who I'm actually reading about.)

I think because I am always yearning to imagine in at least a quasi-realistic way what things were like for the Eldar. What was the journey to the sea like? What were the differences and disagreements along the way? How did they deal with day-to-day life as they traveled? etc., etc.

Yes! For me, I can't ignore the realities of what such a journey would entail, which is one of the major reasons I've never written in this time period, even though I find it interesting.

Despite the lack of novelistic detail in The Silmarillion, there is so much development of character and convincing political and intellectual struggles among the Eldar, ethnic differences one might say. Their choices and differences ring true on a very human and nearly realistic levels.

This, wholeheartedly.

I do not even want to try to imagine it; so glad it is gone from the later drafts!

But the moving island is in the published Silm, too.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

But the moving island is in the published Silm, too.

It still feels out-of-place to me. (I am just re-reading the chapter now; I had not remembered whether it was there or not! I should read and then comment, probably? Ha! Gotta laugh at myself. Don't worry (as though you would!). I will be back to this discussion when I have finished the chapter.)

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I guess a floating island with caves sounds a bit odd. But just a large floating platform on which vegetation can grow... That doesn't seem implausible. I saw people living on reed islands on lake Titicaca, for example.

What destroys my suspension of disbelief is the way the light is supposed to work. How can it reach any place where the trees are not visible? Or are all those places in deep dark shadow?

[tehta.livejournal.com]

An extra question dear to my heart: why did Tolkien keep changing his mind as to whether the noldor invented glass? (Well, glass-like gems.)

[independence1776]

What destroys my suspension of disbelief is the way the light is supposed to work. How can it reach any place where the trees are not visible? Or are all those places in deep dark shadow?

YES! That is the main reason I have not and will not write pre-Darkening fic longer than ficlets. (Add in me thinking For Sure that everyone else knows the answer to this and I'm just too stupid to see it and people will laugh if I ask questions about it. So glad I'm not the only one confused by it.)

[independence1776]

I have absolutely no idea. Maybe it's related to his problems with science and technology or maybe he thought they've done enough?

[independence1776]

Honestly, I can and do buy a Vala and his Maiar moving an island. With the Valar destroying Beleriand in the War of Wrath, I see the island as a more controlled unleashing of power. But that's me. :)

[rakshathedemon.livejournal.com]

I also find it hard to imagine the brilliant and mercurial Feanor sitting down with bureaucrats to help his father settle tax disputes and other nitty-gritty realities of ruling any region. I wonder whether Fingolfin's close assistance to Finwe in administrative matters might have made Feanor jealous, something which, along with Morgoth's lies, strengthened Feanor's jealousy of his half-brother which would later erupt in open argument. Feanor was always singularly possessive of their father...

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I totally endorse that as a possible extrapolation.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I rather assumed that Formenos had existed before the exile, but not necessarily as a fortress. Perhaps as a centre for mining or processing of ores, or local research into low-light flora and fauna, which was then fortified and turned into a proper residence.

I think that everywhere that the Trees' light didn't reach was in shadow, yes. The bits outside the Pelori, for instance, so Alqualonde was only lit by starlight and lamplight. And areas further away within Valinor were less bright than the central region. Obviously, people went there on holiday for a bit of twilight and cool weather.

Given the Elves' obvious technological capabilities, I assumed that they had no problems growing enough food to feed themselves. If you assume that the climate where most Elves lived was more or less tropical (Alqualonde would be monsoonal, somewhere like Chennai or Yangon) the level of biodiversity would be so high that they should have developed the same number of complex and interesting cuisines that you would get in the tropics today.

I don't think that they farmed animals, because of the moral problem with killing something that you have raised and taught to trust you. But hunting and fishing would be OK, since predation is part of the natural order and the prey has a fair chance to get away or fight back. I imagine the fields and pastures of Yavanna as something like the Serengeti Plain, but rather more so. Aman looks roughly the size of both the Americas put together, so there'd be plenty of space for millions of creatures thundering across the veldt.

There was a bit in HoME (I think in "Morgoth's Ring") where Aman was said to have had every kind of animal that had ever lived. This would be extremely awkward if taken literally, but I do rather like the idea of Celegorm hunting megafauna and coming back home severely chewed up by a phorusrhacid. And the Eagles are clearly teratorns.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think that Finwe's great skill actually is organisation and administration (obviously a rather rare skill-set among the elves). Feanor got his technological genius from his mother's side.

Also, the issue of being Finwe's heir must have been much more a matter of pride and familial rivalry than substance, since Finwe wasn't going to stop being King, as far as they knew. Having an heir would matter in Middle-earth, where kings tended to get killed quite regularly, but it would be irrelevant in Aman. There's no evidence that anyone in Olwe or Ingwe's families had any desire to take over from them as rulers.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Balar was mostly made of some volcanic, tuffaceous rock? That might float, with a bit of divine assistance.

The Inthar in Myanmar are also very famous for their floating vegetable gardens on Inle Lake. They are very large, and can easily be walked upon.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

On synthesising gemstones: one of the things about synthetic stones is that unlike natural ones they can be grown perfect and unflawed, and in any size. There is no such thing as a natural ruby or sapphire without inclusions.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Everything about elvish society, especially in Valinor, would be conditioned by the fact that they don't die. That would lead to long-term thinking on a geological time-scale.

I think of the Valinorean economy as non-monetary, in the sense that money could be used as a unit of account, but not as a medium of exchange. This would actually be possible in a high-trust society where everyone knows or knows of everyone else and reputation is both easily ascertained and very important. Since everyone lives indefinitely, there would be lot of social pressure on everyone to contribute their share over time. I'd take an idea suggested by the science fiction writer Poul Andersen and propose that taxes would be paid in the form of performing necessary services from time to time (road and sewer maintenance, teaching the young, cleaning, pruning the White Tree, municipal administration and accounts, judicial and mediation services etc).

People would just ask for what they wanted from whoever was producing it. Producers would compete on the basis of popularity among consumers for everything, from flour for making noodles to heat-transfer devices. There would be a very high premium on showing your own originality and creativity in the things that you grow or make or design for someone else to make for you.

There would be no external enemies, no scarcity of food, water, other physical resources or living-space, no real crime (though a fair amount of vicious research rivalry), and no need for significant health care, child care, elderly care, religious obligations, or law enforcement beyond basic ordinances like traffic rules. A huge number of the constraints of a human society would simply not exist.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. :)

Though I imagine that the Elves who came from Cuiviénen would actually still have a nagging fear that Elves might be snatched by the Dark Rider and never seen again, or go astray in the woods and never be seen again... Olwë wasn't the original king of the Teleri, after all. So maybe making provision for an heir to take over if something bad happened was seen as a reasonable precaution by the first generation in Aman.

Once they'd lived in the bliss of Valinor for a few centuries, though, it probably seemed less important - and maybe Fëanor's continued insistence that he was the heir of Finwë started to seem peculiar?

[independence1776]

I think having an heir may very well have more substance-- if the Eldar know they live to what amounts to forever, I imagine the kings wanting a (likely long) break every now and then. And as Stormwreath said, it's likely also a holdover from before Aman.

[independence1776]

I don't think that they farmed animals, because of the moral problem with killing something that you have raised and taught to trust you.

I'm the complete opposite of you with this. I think as soon as they could, the Elves developed all forms of agriculture. Raising meat on farms is a lot easier than hunting for it, especially if there was a population boom once they arrived in Aman and settled down.

There was a bit in HoME (I think in "Morgoth's Ring") where Aman was said to have had every kind of animal that had ever lived.

It's in the Silm, too! Last line of this chapter. Taken literally does lead to awkwardness, but I find it an interesting idea. (I love your thought of Celegorm hunting megafauna.)

[independence1776]

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