SWG Re-Read - "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië" Discussion Post

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The Graphics Post has been updated again! New banners by lignota and oloriel.

Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Chapter 5 – Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië


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Summary

In this chapter, the Vanyar and Noldor reach the westernmost shores of Middle-earth. To ferry them to Aman, Ulmo uproots an island, and thus the first Elves come into the Blessed Realm, where they begin to settle. The Teleri, being at that time too far from the sea to hear Ulmo's summons, remain behind, only journeying to the shore after the Vanyar and Noldor have left. Their leader is now Olwë, the brother of Elwë. The Teleri live by the shores of the Great Sea for a long time; they become friends of Ossë and Uinen. When Ulmo at the request of Finwë returns to Middle-earth to bring the Teleri to Aman, Ossë is displeased. Many Teleri are now willing to leave Middle-earth, but some are persuaded by Ossë to remain. They become the Falathrim, led by Círdan the Shipwright. Those Teleri who are still searching for Elwë also stay behind. Elwë and Melian later find them and become their king and queen.

Ossë is still unhappy that most of the Teler have left, so he follows the island-ferry and calls out to them. They hear him and beg Ulmo to stop their journey, which Ulmo does. The island remains in the Bay of Eldamar and is called Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle.

In the meantime, the Noldor and Vanyar have built their own city in Valinor: Tirion upon the hill of Túna, located in a gap between the mountains that encircle Valinor. From this place, the Eldar can see both the ocean and the Two Trees. The Vanyar have formed a deep friendship with Manwë and Varda, while the Noldor are especially fond of Aulë.

At last, the Teleri decide to leave Tol Eressëa and come to Aman proper. Ulmo asks Ossë to teach them how to make ships, and when these ships are built, they are drawn by swans across the Bay of Eldamar. When the Teleri build their own city (with the help of the Noldor), they call it Alqualondë, "Haven of the Swans".

The Vanyar eventually wish to be closer to the Two Trees and to Manwë, and leave Tirion to live at the foot of Taniquetil. Ingwë, lord of the Vanyar, is considered the High King of all the Elves. Finwë is king of the Noldor, and in time fathers three sons on two wives: Fëanor, son of Míriel, and Fingolfin and Finarfin, sons of Indis. Fëanor has seven sons: Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Amros and Amrad. Fingolfin's children are Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel. Finarfin's children are Finrod Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. (Most of these people are going to be instrumental in the later history of Middle-earth, so it's useful to get acquainted to their names early on.)



Our Favourite Quotes

"In the north these shores, in the ancient days after the Battle of the Powers, bent ever westward, until in the northernmost parts of Arda only a narrow sea divided Aman, upon which Valinor was built, from the Hither Lands; but this narrow sea was filled with grinding ice, because of the violence of the frosts of Melkor."

"Thus it came to be that the Teleri, who were from the beginning lovers of water, and the fairest singers of all the Elves, were after enamoured of the seas, and their songs were filled with the sound of waves upon the shore."

"Greatly though [Elwë] had desired to see again the light of the Trees, in the face of Melian he beheld the light of Aman as in an unclouded mirror, and in that light he was content. His people gathered about him in joy, and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar; and a high doom was before him."

"Even among the radiant flowers of the Tree-lit gardens of Valinor [the Noldor and Vanyar] longed still at times to see the stars; and therefore a gap was made in the great walls of the Pelóri, and there in a deep valley that ran down to the sea the Eldar raised a high green hill: Túna it was called."

"Then through the Calacirya, the Pass of Light, the radiance of the Blessed Realm streamed forth, kindling the dark waves to silver and gold, and it touched the Lonely Isle, and its western shore grew green and fair. There bloomed the first flowers that ever were east of the Mountains of Aman."

"And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor."

"There [the Teleri] dwelt, and if they wished they could see the light of the Trees, and could tread upon the golden streets of Valmar and the crystal stairs of Tirion upon Túna, the green hill; but most of all they sailed in their swift ships on the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or walked in the waves upon the shore with their hair gleaming in the light beyond the hill."

"And many pearls [the Teleri] won for themselves from the sea, and their halls were of pearl, and of pearl were the mansions of Olwë at Alqualondë, the Haven of the Swans, lit with many lamps. For that was their city, and the haven of their ships; and those were made in the likeness of swans, with beaks of gold and eyes of gold and jet."

"For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed."



Earlier Versions

~ In the first version of this story, Ossë's relationship with the Teleri is quite different. To begin with, he doesn't care about them, but is very much offended because Ulmo is using the same island ferry that once Ossë used to bring the Valar to Aman without asking him first (2). For this reason, he assaults the island (with Uinen's help!) when Ulmo is trying to bring the Teleri to Valinor, stops its progress, and eventually roots it to the sea floor. The Teleri are therefore stranded against their own will, and take refuge in the caves of what is now the Lonely Isle. (2)

~ It is Ulmo, not Ossë, who teaches the Teleri sea-lore and music in The Book of Lost Tales. The Teleri's piping and love of the sea eventually endear them to Ossë, however. (2)

~ Ulmo actually considers making war on Ossë to deliver the Teleri into Valinor, but the other Valar do not allow it. His chance comes when Ossë settles many seabirds on and around Tol Eressëa. The Teleri harness these birds to their rafts on the lakes of Tol Eressëa, and some even venture out to sea where Ulmo sees their new invention. Asking help of Oromë and Aulë, Ulmo secretly has a fleet of ships built to ferry the Teleri to Valinor. Ossë does not discover this until too late because Aulë cunningly makes the ships look like swans. The fleet is well underway when Ossë realises what is happening; but as he has now grown fond of the Teleri, he will not sink their ships and lets them go. (2)

~ Ossë's wrath and rebellion continue to be the reason for the rooting of Tol Eressëa in "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" and "The Quenta". However, Ossë no longer needs to be tricked: He releases the Teleri when Ulmo asks it of him. He even gives them swans to pull their boats, which the Teleri now build under Ulmo's tutelage without help from either Aulë or Oromë (3; 4; 8).

~ In other versions, the ferry island is what has remained of the Valar's very first dwelling in Arda (3; 4; 8). In these versions of the narrative, Ossë no longer acts as he does out of anger about Ulmo's choice of vessel, but because he has become enamoured of the Teleri. In the "Quenta Silmarillion", the Teleri first beg Ulmo to stay their journey and root Tol Eressëa in the Bay of Eldamar. However, Ulmo does not yet understand and condone the Teleri's desire to stay their journey; instead, he is angry (8). In "The Annals of Aman", Ossë becomes the one who teaches the Teleri ship-building (10, §75).

~ Tirion upon Túna undergoes a variety of name changes. In The Book of Lost Tales, it is named Kôr like the hill upon which it is built (2). In later versions, Kôr (also spelled Côr) is purely the name of the hill, and the city now is named Tûn (3 – 6; 8). The "Annals of Aman" first introduce the name of Tirion, with Túna becoming the name of the hill. (10)

~ In The Book of Lost Tales, the Vanyar and Noldor receive shoots of both Laurelin and Telperion (2). This detail then completely disappears, until "The Annals of Aman" report that Yavanna gives the White Tree Galathilion to the Noldor (10, §69). It is not yet clear whether this is supposed to be the White Tree that later grows in Gondor, or merely its ancestor as is later stated in The Silmarillion.

~ Initially, there is no link between Fëanor and the king of the Noldor, then named Nólemë (2)."The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" names Fëanor as the second son of Finn (Finwë) the Noldorin king, and Fingolfin as the firstborn (3). "The Quenta" names Fëanor first. It is also where the seven sons of Fëanor make their first appearance, along with three children of Fingolfin (named Finweg, Turgon and Isfin the White). Finarfin, then called Finrod, is father of Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod and Egnor (4); Galadriel does not appear until "The later Quenta Silmarillion" (9).

~ The Noldor initially created (all) jewels rather than finding them in the earth. Aulë has taught them to make a crystalline substance, but the Noldor come up with the art of dyeing these gems by using "the juices of roses and red flowers", "the water of the creek of Kôr" and various other means (2).

~ There is scant detail in "The Later Annals of Valinor" in The Lost Road and it is more of a summary of events than anything else. (6)

~ The version in "Quenta Silmarillion" in The Lost Road has not become a seperate chapter, as it is part of the chapter that extends from "Of the Coming of Elves" through "Of Eldamar," but Tolkien did break it into the subheadings that became the seperate chapters. (7)

~ This is also the first time that Amrod and Amras are explicitely named as twins and the passage about all non-evil creatures living in Aman appeared. (8)

~ It is in "The later Quenta Silmarillion" that the Lonely Isle loses its connection with the Valar's first habitation. It is also here that Ulmo first understands the Teleri's desire to stay in the starlight. Some changes were made to the names (notably Aredhel's description expanded, Galadriel added and Orodreth struck out as a son). (9)

~ "The Annals of Aman" in Morgoth's Ring have many new elements, among them Ulmo's music turning fear of the sea into desire, the Noldor mining gems rather than creating them, the appearance of the relation of Finarfin's children to Thingol, and Círdan's and Galadriel's appearances from The Lord of the Rings. (10)

~ For this subject matter, there is very little difference between the "Annals of Aman" in Morgoth's Ring and "The Gray Annals" in The War of the Jewels, to the point where Christopher Tolkien speculates that the latter was copied from the former. (11)

~ There is a short essay in "Last Writings" in The Peoples of Middle-earth about Círdan, of which almost everything is new. In it is stated that he's kin to Elwë and Olwë; that he and his people remained a distinct group from the rest of the Sindar (they even spoke an older version of the language); and that the Valar warned him not to attempt the building of an ocean-worthy ship when he missed traveling to Valinor on the Lonely Isle, but instead to wait. It also states that shipbuilding was not not taught to the Elves by Ossë, but was instead already a known craft (which would explain why the Falathrim build the same ships as the Teleri do!). (12)




Food for Thought

~ Why do you think Tolkien abandoned the idea of the Elves receiving scions of both Trees?

~ Ossë's role in this chapter has been changed quite a bit throughout its different incarnations. From a jealous deity who waylays the Teleri and almost provokesUlmo into warfare, he turns into a somewhat selfish but ultimately benevolent influence on the Teleri's life. Why do you think Tolkien changed his mind about Ossë's role?

~ Aside from the Teleri's fishing, the hunting of Celegorm, Amrod and Amras, and a later mention of the "fields and pastures of Yavanna" and the "first gathering of fruits" (13), Tolkien does not exactly venture much information on how the Elves fed themselves – or generally dealt with everyday concerns. Have you ever thought about Elven everyday life and economy in more detail?

~ After the Vanyar left, The Silmarillion states that the Noldor and Teleri grew closer. How much converse do you think the Vanyar had with the other two groups? Was it solely diplomatic, trade-related, or more common than stated?

~ Fëanor and his sons explore Valinor, and it says in Morgoth's Ring that Nerdanel's own wandering is how she met Fëanor. (14) How common do you think it was for people of the Eldar to explore Valinor?



Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 5. Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "V. The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The earliest 'Silmarillion'".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor".

(6) The Lost Road, "The Later Annals of Valinor," V.Y. 2000 – V.Y. 2500

(7) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 3 (a) "Of the Coming of Elves" introductory note

(8) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 3 (c) Of Kôr and Alqualondë, §35, 37, 41, 45

(9) Morgoth's Ring. The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalië" §35, 37, 42

(10) Morgoth's Ring. The Later Quenta Silmarillion. "The Annals of Aman," §75, 66, 69, 79, 85, 70, 85

(11) The War of the Jewels, "The Grey Annals," §11—14 and their notes in the commentary

(12) The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings," Círdan

(13)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 8. Of the Darkening of Valinor".

(14) Morgoth's Ring "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"



Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

“Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor” is due March 9.

Comments

SWG Silm re-read (banners)

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User hhimring referenced to your post from SWG Silm re-read (banners) (http://hhimring.livejournal.com/82303.html) saying: [...] ve Bat Luthien. I'm trying to catch up at the moment. Chapter Five today! Discussion post here [...]

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

Personal Favourite Quote: "Feanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unkown."

For me it explains the frictions between Feanor and his silbings. He may have been the firstborn and the crownprince, but he wasn't a constant presence in court. Of course it created a rift between the Noldor, who lead an almost nomadic life (not unlike the Avari, I imagine) and those who remained in the city. Returning in semi-regular intervals for trade doesn't help to form attachments. At this point I also include my headcanon that Formenos was meant as a place, where Feanor and his craftsmen could build and create without interruption of someone stealing their ideas. Comparing them to guilds in the Middle-Ages, it is common to keep the secrets of a trade in the "family".

Combing this with the habit to name things, theoretical constructs or distinguish ideas, it doesn't surprise me that the Noldor chose to take against Morgoth later. I like to compare them to lawyers. People with extensive knowledge about rights, wrongs and consquences. (Does it make the Silmaril a case about copyright infringement?).

For my part, I don't get how the Vanyar fit into this. I often imagine them a bit like Gondolin: peaceful, but isolated. To leave Tirion after they had been living there with the Noldor, I tend to see them as sensitive people, their minds possessing almost telepathic abilities.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

You raise some interesting issues here. I also made some lasting extrapolations from Feanor's frequent absences. He, in the next chapter shows how defensive he is of his birthright--Finwe's heir. However, he does seem not particularly interested in governance or administration, things which are important to a ruling monarch. It definitely sets up conflict. Fingolfin will be there, close at his father's side, assisting in the tedium of administration, while brilliant, mutable Feanor is absent, whether completely absorbed with his work or traveling and exploring. One cannot imagine Feanor, happily sitting in council with a bunch of bureaucrats listening to them drone on about tiny administrative details or budgets!

There is no indication in canon that Formenos existed before Feanor is exiled from Tirion, nor is there anything that suggests it did not. But you would not be the only Silm reader to imagine that it must have a prior existence. My reason for thinking it existed earlier is a case of extrapolating from real world history that political differences among peoples often are geographically-based and, like your suggestion, may involve work or livelihood, e.g., shared interest(s). So I imagined that those who later become the hardcore Feanorians might be comprised in part of groupings and communities that are not centered around the court and Tirion but in outlying areas and who have a long-standing identification with and support of Feanor. I can easily imagine as you suggest groupings drawn together for collaborative purposes involving craft/science./technology.

[independence1776]

For me it explains the frictions between Feanor and his silbings. He may have been the firstborn and the crownprince, but he wasn't a constant presence in court.

I think that's a large part of it-- people know his half-brothers rather than him. It seems that they'd be more inclinded to the day-to-day realities of ruling where Fëanor seems more interested in the larger scale duties. I also wonder if there was some wariness about exploring Valinor with only a handful of people, despite knowing they were safe, due to Morgoth and his minions kidnapping the Elves at Cuivenien who wandered away.

I don't get how the Vanyar fit into this. I often imagine them a bit like Gondolin: peaceful, but isolated. To leave Tirion after they had been living there with the Noldor, I tend to see them as sensitive people, their minds possessing almost telepathic abilities.

The Vanyar, I think, are the people who are happy with what they have. There's less of a drive to prove themselves.

As for the telepathic abilites: it's canon that all Elves (mortals, too) have some telepathic ability. It's in Return of the King, "Many Partings" that "[Elrond, Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and possibly others] did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." There's a more about it in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Essay VII Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, ii. A similar, though somewhat different, treatment is found in an essay called "Ósanwe-kenta" published in Vinyar Tengwar. (In any case, here's Tolkien Gateway's article on it.)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I am really not a fan of The Book of Lost Tales--I know, I know! So many people love the details. It's mainly a boring slough for me--largely the language and have to learn a whole bunch of names which are then abandoned, the memory of which only serves to confuse me.

The problem is that there are some great small details in The Book of Lost Tales which enhance the legendarium in a lot of ways. Not included among those, for me, is the whole moving-island, using a chunk of land as a ferryboat! I hate that part with a visceral hatred, what's the old fanfic cliche for a detail that does not work? "It pulls me right out of the story!" Makes me what to stop reading. Have to get past it instead of enjoying any part of that idea. I think because I am always yearning to imagine in at least a quasi-realistic way what things were like for the Eldar. What was the journey to the sea like? What were the differences and disagreements along the way? How did they deal with day-to-day life as they traveled? etc., etc.

Despite the lack of novelistic detail in The Silmarillion, there is so much development of character and convincing political and intellectual struggles among the Eldar, ethnic differences one might say. Their choices and differences ring true on a very human and nearly realistic levels. Then things like having to survive under starlight (duh? without photosynthesis? for uncountable years?) or an island ferrying people back and worth across a big ocean, just leave me cold and impatient to get to the better parts. I liked Greek and Roman mythology as a kid growing up, for example, and plenty of that was completely ridiculous if one tried to think about it in any practical way, but that was OK because one did not expect any of it to work.

Somehow The Silmarillion pulls me to empathize with and identify with the Eldar as more recognizably human to me and real. As soon as I got to this chapter on my first read of the Silm, I started finding myself taking sides and choosing favorites. Floating islands make my strong identification feel foolish and stupid and make me want to throw the book across the room. The work feels too big and too true for some the small details. This is a part where I cannot suspend my disbelief, or accept the green sun as Tolkien might say. I do not even want to try to imagine it; so glad it is gone from the later drafts!

[independence1776]

Confession time: I only picked up BoLT to read seriously for this project, and even then, I still skim. (The name changes confuse me, too. I'm never sure who I'm actually reading about.)

I think because I am always yearning to imagine in at least a quasi-realistic way what things were like for the Eldar. What was the journey to the sea like? What were the differences and disagreements along the way? How did they deal with day-to-day life as they traveled? etc., etc.

Yes! For me, I can't ignore the realities of what such a journey would entail, which is one of the major reasons I've never written in this time period, even though I find it interesting.

Despite the lack of novelistic detail in The Silmarillion, there is so much development of character and convincing political and intellectual struggles among the Eldar, ethnic differences one might say. Their choices and differences ring true on a very human and nearly realistic levels.

This, wholeheartedly.

I do not even want to try to imagine it; so glad it is gone from the later drafts!

But the moving island is in the published Silm, too.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I actually have a soft spot for the "moving island" thing... because it's the problem-solver in a very famous German children's book. Basically, after the protagonist's father-figure has been driven from his home island because there was no more room, the protagonist and his father-figure live through a series of grand adventure. In the end, they discover a floating island, which they drag back home. Happy ending! That story was hugely popular when I was a kindergardener (probably still is - I'll find out in one or two years, I expect ;)) and I was a big (well, small in size) fan. Accordingly, the idea of a floating island still sort of makes me go "awwww, happy fluffy childhood feelings".
But I can't take it serious for a second! XD

Like Indy, I have to confess that I'm not a huge HoME scholar either - so far, I've mostly skimmed the books and/or only given an in-depth look to those parts that were relevant to my interests. So this project is making me do research in fields I've mostly ignored so far! The chapter-by-chapter approach is working reasonably well for me, but I still couldn't read (say) The Book of Lost Tales on its own in one go. And it's not just Christopher Tolkien's constant interruptions that make it an impossible read...
but that's a whole other rant.

So I, too, am glad that The Silmarillion ended up being quite different. And I agree that the Eldar feel very human and real, despite their occasionally superhuman powers and the whole myth-like setting! I actually find the Elves of the Silmarillion a lot more believable than those in The Lord of the Rings, who didn't impress me much...

[tehta.livejournal.com]

An extra question dear to my heart: why did Tolkien keep changing his mind as to whether the noldor invented glass? (Well, glass-like gems.)

[independence1776]

I have absolutely no idea. Maybe it's related to his problems with science and technology or maybe he thought they've done enough?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure he did change his mind. He clearly decided that the gems of the world aren't all Noldor-created, but that those that we know today are, in fact, naturally occuring gems (as opposed to Noldor-dyed superglass)... but he did keep the Silmarils (well, a Silmarillion without them wouldn't quite have worked, I guess) and also the light-stones, so it's reasonably likely that the idea as such was merely modified, but not entirely dropped.

Or did you mean your question in the sense of, Tolkien changed his mind from "The Noldor as a whole invented it" towards "Fëanor in particular invented it"? *headscratch*

[hhimring]

I guess the original idea would have posed the problem of explaining how the gems the Noldor invented in Valinor got into the mines of Middle-earth.
But also Feanor seems to get to be more of a special case rather than just an extremely Noldorin Noldo as the legendarium develops? Maybe?
(I haven't really caught up yet with this chapter yet...)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I rather assumed that Formenos had existed before the exile, but not necessarily as a fortress. Perhaps as a centre for mining or processing of ores, or local research into low-light flora and fauna, which was then fortified and turned into a proper residence.

I think that everywhere that the Trees' light didn't reach was in shadow, yes. The bits outside the Pelori, for instance, so Alqualonde was only lit by starlight and lamplight. And areas further away within Valinor were less bright than the central region. Obviously, people went there on holiday for a bit of twilight and cool weather.

Given the Elves' obvious technological capabilities, I assumed that they had no problems growing enough food to feed themselves. If you assume that the climate where most Elves lived was more or less tropical (Alqualonde would be monsoonal, somewhere like Chennai or Yangon) the level of biodiversity would be so high that they should have developed the same number of complex and interesting cuisines that you would get in the tropics today.

I don't think that they farmed animals, because of the moral problem with killing something that you have raised and taught to trust you. But hunting and fishing would be OK, since predation is part of the natural order and the prey has a fair chance to get away or fight back. I imagine the fields and pastures of Yavanna as something like the Serengeti Plain, but rather more so. Aman looks roughly the size of both the Americas put together, so there'd be plenty of space for millions of creatures thundering across the veldt.

There was a bit in HoME (I think in "Morgoth's Ring") where Aman was said to have had every kind of animal that had ever lived. This would be extremely awkward if taken literally, but I do rather like the idea of Celegorm hunting megafauna and coming back home severely chewed up by a phorusrhacid. And the Eagles are clearly teratorns.

[independence1776]

I don't think that they farmed animals, because of the moral problem with killing something that you have raised and taught to trust you.

I'm the complete opposite of you with this. I think as soon as they could, the Elves developed all forms of agriculture. Raising meat on farms is a lot easier than hunting for it, especially if there was a population boom once they arrived in Aman and settled down.

There was a bit in HoME (I think in "Morgoth's Ring") where Aman was said to have had every kind of animal that had ever lived.

It's in the Silm, too! Last line of this chapter. Taken literally does lead to awkwardness, but I find it an interesting idea. (I love your thought of Celegorm hunting megafauna.)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think that everywhere that the Trees' light didn't reach was in shadow, yes. The bits outside the Pelori, for instance, so Alqualonde was only lit by starlight and lamplight. And areas further away within Valinor were less bright than the central region. Obviously, people went there on holiday for a bit of twilight and cool weather.

I would beg to differ that there was incredibly low light outside of Valinor. I would agree that it is easier for me to imagine that the intensity of the light is less. And that the golden light of Laurelin would reach further than the silver light of Telperion--hence twilight during the hours of waxing of Telperion and something approximating night during the hours of its waning.

But the following citation from this chapter seems to indicate that the light reached the sea and even beyond.

"Then through the Calacirya, the Pass of Light, the radiance of the Blessed Realm streamed forth, kindling the dark waves to silver and gold, and it touched the Lonely Isle, and its western shore grew green and fair. There bloomed the first flowers that ever were east of the Mountains of Aman."

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I rather assumed that Formenos had existed before the exile, but not necessarily as a fortress.

That's my reading as well. The Eldar can't all have been living in the city (assuming that they did any farming at all), so there must have been smaller settlements as well as isolated homesteads for various purposes, such as mining, research or farming. Formenos may well have been one of them.

The bits outside the Pelori, for instance, so Alqualonde was only lit by starlight and lamplight.

Nah, Alqualondë lies close to the Calacirya IIRC, so it would have gotten the same amount of Treelight as the Sea, and certainly more than Tol Eressëa (which is explicitly mentioned to have received a sufficient share of Treelight to grow its own trees and flowers).

I don't think that they farmed animals, because of the moral problem with killing something that you have raised and taught to trust you.

I don't think that would be practicable. If you want wool, you have to keep sheep (or angora rabbits, or kashmir goats, or alpakas -- you get the picture). You want eggs or down, you have to keep chicken (or geese, or ducks, or whatever). Those multiply. Even with the size of Aman and its doubtlessly perfect climate and growth circles, there's only a limited population that the land can support. I don't know about you, but my idea of a "Blessed Realm" would rule out major blights -- and epidemics. There may not even be feral wolves and foxes to regulate the animal population a little. Accordingly, you can either let the sheep (rabbits, goats - oh, goats wreak havoc on their surroundings if you let them! -, chicken, geese etc.) multiply until they've turned the Blessed Realm into a desert, or you have to take measures - either by neutering a great number of them, or by killing some of the surplus, or both. And if you've got to kill them, I'd hope you aren't going to waste their dead bodies but are going to use their various components for food, clothing, tools etc. (presumably not lamp oil, what with the lack of "proper" nights or winters and, later, the existence of light stones)...

Besides, I suspect that the whole "you can't kill an animal that you've raised and that trusts you" thing is an extremely modern sentiment. Humans have, for many centuries, have had no apparent moral problems with feeding, milking and otherwise caring for Porky The Family Pig and Bess The Family Cow - and then butchering them when the time came. It was sort of part of the contract: I feed you, and eventually you feed me. I think the Eldar would do the same - though not, as Aulë so neatly puts it, without respect or gratitude.

"Pasture" actually implies domesticated animals (and Tolkien chose his words with care), so Yavanna at the very least seems to have farmed animals...

Given the Elves' obvious technological capabilities, I assumed that they had no problems growing enough food to feed themselves.

They shouldn't have any problems, but the interesting question is - Where did they grow the food? How did it get from the field to the market, or granary, or household table? Did they practice redistribution - everyone throws something in the granary when possibe, everybody receives something out of it when necessary? Or did they trade? What was their currency - goods, services, jewels, coin? What was the social status of the farmers? Did Finwë grow his own carrots (or rice or bananas or whatever), or did he, the King, get everything for free? We aren't told anything about that, but some kind of economic system must have been in place, so there should be a lot more speculation about it!

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I think the light thing is sort of starting to make sense to me.

As for agriculture, I have a headcanon (one among many) where Yavanna takes care of a lot of the necessary crop-growing, and makes various things ripen at various times, so all the Elves really have to do is harvest their food. (Hunting is a form of that sort of harvesting, as well.) Not to say that those who are into that sort of thing could not take up gardening...

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

On synthesising gemstones: one of the things about synthetic stones is that unlike natural ones they can be grown perfect and unflawed, and in any size. There is no such thing as a natural ruby or sapphire without inclusions.

[independence1776]

Was this meant as a reply to this comment?

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

One of my earliest Silm fics dealt with this question: Young Feanaro Makes a Stone (http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/archive/home/viewstory.php?sid=235&chapter=1).

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Everything about elvish society, especially in Valinor, would be conditioned by the fact that they don't die. That would lead to long-term thinking on a geological time-scale.

I think of the Valinorean economy as non-monetary, in the sense that money could be used as a unit of account, but not as a medium of exchange. This would actually be possible in a high-trust society where everyone knows or knows of everyone else and reputation is both easily ascertained and very important. Since everyone lives indefinitely, there would be lot of social pressure on everyone to contribute their share over time. I'd take an idea suggested by the science fiction writer Poul Andersen and propose that taxes would be paid in the form of performing necessary services from time to time (road and sewer maintenance, teaching the young, cleaning, pruning the White Tree, municipal administration and accounts, judicial and mediation services etc).

People would just ask for what they wanted from whoever was producing it. Producers would compete on the basis of popularity among consumers for everything, from flour for making noodles to heat-transfer devices. There would be a very high premium on showing your own originality and creativity in the things that you grow or make or design for someone else to make for you.

There would be no external enemies, no scarcity of food, water, other physical resources or living-space, no real crime (though a fair amount of vicious research rivalry), and no need for significant health care, child care, elderly care, religious obligations, or law enforcement beyond basic ordinances like traffic rules. A huge number of the constraints of a human society would simply not exist.

[erendis1.livejournal.com]

Are we to accept this chapter as having been written primarily by Rumil of Tirion with editorial changes by Pengolodh of Gondolin?

Is it ever mentioned how large Tol Eressea is? If the Teleri lived there for a while, the island must be pretty large. A lot of Teleri did leave with Olwe. Also, Tol Eressea later supports the returned Sindar and Exiles. While we are on the topic of Eressea, did it remain deserted until the end of the First Age? It could be used as a vacation spot...

This may belong in a later discussion, but do Feanor's sons belong to the same generation(of comparable age with) as the children of Fingolfin and Finarfin?

Why do you think Tolkien abandoned the idea of the Elves receiving scions of both Trees?

Perhaps because the elves are associated with starlight and the night? Telperion is the elder of the trees and is described as white and silver, whereas Laurelin is the younger one and also associated with the sun. It is no coincidence that there are two trees, and that Illuvatar has two children. (the dwarves don't count since they weren't a "direct" result of Eru's will) This is premature, but does anyone recall if Tolkien ever mentioned the order in which the trees were killed?

Ossë's role in this chapter has been changed quite a bit throughout its different incarnations. From a jealous deity who waylays the Teleri and almost provokesUlmo into warfare, he turns into a somewhat selfish but ultimately benevolent influence on the Teleri's life. Why do you think Tolkien changed his mind about Ossë's role?

Tolkien has this trend of going from detail to summary. He also seems to have made the Valar more benevolent over time. In the BoLT, the Valar have much more distinct personalities and seem, not capricious, but much less benevolent. For example, Nienna started out as Fui Nienna and later she becomes a goddess of mercy, in the vein of Guanyin. Osse's character evolution seems to follow this strand.

Tolkien may also just have wanted to keep the theme that water is pure. It does say that in water one can hear a strand of the Music of Ainur. Which means that Osse can be misguided at times and a trickster, but he is never just malicious.

After the Vanyar left, The Silmarillion states that the Noldor and Teleri grew closer. How much converse do you think the Vanyar had with the other two groups? Was it solely diplomatic, trade-related, or more common than stated?

They must have had some contact. Despite Indis adopting the ways of the Noldor, her presence must have had some effect on maintaining interaction between the Vanyar and the Noldor. Also, even though royalty is often the exception, the fact that Turgon wed a Vanya, Elenwe, and Finrod had a Vanyarin beloved, Amarie, seems to indicate some continued contact. Another thing, though the Vanyar overall were music-loving, peace people, there must have been some Vanyar who shared interests with the typical Noldo. (this last is probably wishful-thinking on my part...)

[independence1776]

Are we to accept this chapter as having been written primarily by Rumil of Tirion with editorial changes by Pengolodh of Gondolin?

Um… Can anyone who knows more about the narrators than I do answer this?

Is it ever mentioned how large Tol Eressea is? If the Teleri lived there for a while, the island must be pretty large.

In its orginal conception, it was meant to be England! Despite the changes made to its story, I still go for something rather large. If people live comfortably on it for a while, it has to be.

While we are on the topic of Eressea, did it remain deserted until the end of the First Age? It could be used as a vacation spot…

Maybe! I tend to think of it more of a place for retreats (though places for that could be found elsewhere in Aman), and in one of my 'verses (though I don't think I mention it anywhere), there's an observatory there.

This may belong in a later discussion, but do Feanor's sons belong to the same generation(of comparable age with) as the children of Fingolfin and Finarfin?

I think so, but an argument could be made otherwise. The only dates we have for births are for Fingolfin, Finarfin, Turgon, Galadriel, and Aredhel. (Here's a fan-made chronology.)

This is premature, but does anyone recall if Tolkien ever mentioned the order in which the trees were killed?

Good question! I don't know the answer, though. But it's definitely something Lyra and I will look for when we come to it.

Another thing, though the Vanyar overall were music-loving, peace people, there must have been some Vanyar who shared interests with the typical Noldo. (this last is probably wishful-thinking on my part…)

Not wishful thinking at all! It doesn't make sense that there wouldn't be anyone interested. To me, it's just handy divisions that may hold overall but don't hold true for individuals.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Are we to accept this chapter as having been written primarily by Rumil of Tirion with editorial changes by Pengolodh of Gondolin?

You don't have to accept anything! ;) Technically, this chapter is still part of Meril's tale (as remembered/ written down by Ælfwine). So no, this isn't part of Rúmil's chronicles, but rather Meril's family history (Meril, in BoLT 1, is a great-granddaughter of Ingwë).

This may belong in a later discussion, but do Feanor's sons belong to the same generation (of comparable age with) as the children of Fingolfin and Finarfin?

Depends on your definition of "generation"!
The obvious answer would be "yes, of course": They are all grandchildren of Finwë, so it's all one generation. That's certainly the neatest definition (same genetic distance from shared ancestor).
If you want a definition along the lines of our current one ("25-30 years"), one would first have to translate that into Elvish terms (please don't make me do that!) and Valian Years (no no no). I suppose one could simplify things a bit and say "Were some of them grown-ups by the time others were born, that is (purely age-wise) could Maedhros be the father of Galadriel?" In which case the answer would be yes, they were, and yes, you might want to consider them part of different generations. I mean, the Annals of Aman say that Fëanor was born in V.Y. 1169, Fingolfin in V.Y. 1190, and Finarfin in V.Y. 1230. That puts 21 Valian Years (201 Sun Years) between Fëanor and Fingolfin, and 40 Valian Years (383 Sun Years) between Fingolfin and Finarfin. So Fëanor would be old enough to be Finarfin's daddy. We aren't given the birth years of any of Fëanor's kids, but we're told that he married "young" (at about 50?). If he and Nerdanel got busy right away, we must assume that Maedhros and Finarfin are of roughly the same age, so I guess in those terms you might want to put Fëanor's sons into the same generation (I'd prefer "age group") as Finarfin, and definitely ahead of the children of Fingolfin and Finarfin.
Does any of this make sense?

Very interesting points about Ossë! That would explain his development. (Unless we're reading too much into it and it was actually just the result of retelling and streamlining the story, of course! ;))

Another thing, though the Vanyar overall were music-loving, peace people, there must have been some Vanyar who shared interests with the typical Noldo.

Hey, I'm sure there would have been contact at least because the Noldor would like to hear some splendid Vanyarin opera and because some Vanyar would've liked a scene from their favourite ballad as a sculpture. Voilà, shared interest without even moving out of the respective people's comfort zone! :D

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Thoughts on the Vanyar, since I've been very interested in them recently:

Rereading the Silm, I note with interest that no mention is made of any city founded by the Vanyar after they left Tirion (whereas we do hear about Alqualondë and Tirion). It simply says

[they] dwelt thereafter upon the mountain of Manwë, or about the plains and woods of Valinor.

Does this mean the Vanyar lived in scattered, smaller communities (some of them possibly even nomadic)? I mean, I don't think Taniquetil or Valmar could/would support a very large Vanyarin population, being already full of Valar and Maiar. And it seems as though as King, Ingwë should have lived in any hypothetical capital (cf. Olwë in Alqualondë, Finwë in Tirion), but all we get told is that he abides "at the feet of Manwë upon Taniquetil" where I am never sure exactly how literally to take that. >>

This admittedly ties into my headcanon, as (as discussed last post) I have the Vanyar/Minyar as the clan at Cuiviénen with the biggest focus on hunting, gathering and exploration (vs Tatyar crafting and Nelyar fishing). In this context, another explanation for the Vanyar leaving Tirion beyond "we really love the Valar!" could be that a lot of them realised they weren't really comfortable living in a city and wanted to return to something closer to their previous style of life. Maybe this ended up turning into smaller herding- and agriculture-based communities at least partially, thereby giving a bit more of an answer to my perennial question with fantasy worlds - but where does the food come from? I do admit I like the idea of there being nomadic Vanyarin hunter-gatherers even in Aman...

IDK, I guess it's - we see Noldorin restlessness (the... entire Silmarillion...) along with Telerin restlessness (all that dithering about and then the sailing) and it seems logical to me that each of the three clans must have had their issues adjusting to Aman, but we don't get told what form that takes for the Vanyar. Maybe leaving Tirion was part of it.

ALSO, for all that we're told the two tribes grew apart, we seem to have almost as many examples of Noldor marrying Vanyar as of Noldor marrying Noldor. It sounds to me as if the two groups were still close, just not *as* close as "let's build a city together and live there!" Trade would definitely be a big one, but we've also got (in partial answer to that last question!) attested that the Noldor wandered:

[the Noldor] abode in the Calacirya, and in the hills and valleys within the sound of the western sea; and though many of them went often about the land of the Valar, making far journeys in search of the secrets of land and water and all living things, yet the peoples of Túna and Alqualondë drew together in those days.

This quote being more about them being friends with the Teleri (possibly in contrast to the Vanyar, in fact, because I really can't parse the grammar of that sentence), but I'd imagine Noldor-Vanyar contact could be maintained like this as well.

[independence1776]

Does this mean the Vanyar lived in scattered, smaller communities (some of them possibly even nomadic)?

I think so, too. Some-- Ingwë possibly-- settled in Valmar, but I don't think most did. Actually, I just found this in LACE: "[Finwë] arose and went to the house of Ingwë upon the west of Mount Oiolossë." So he did have a house on Taniquetil.

I really, really like your Vanyarin headcanons. This bit especially: it seems logical to me that each of the three clans must have had their issues adjusting to Aman, but we don't get told what form that takes for the Vanyar. Maybe leaving Tirion was part of it. (And off-topic, but the fic you finished is at the top of my to-read list.)

This quote being more about them being friends with the Teleri (possibly in contrast to the Vanyar

That's how I've always understood it.

[havamahal.livejournal.com]

I'll just be honest and admit, that what probably interests me the most in this chapter, is the introduction of Finwë's children and grandchildren and the relationship between them. ;)


I'm sure this passage about Aredhel has been discussed to death in fandom, but I can't seem to get it out of my head...

"She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong, and loved much to ride and hunt in the forests. There she was often in the company of the sons of Fëanor, her kin; but to none was her heart's love given. Ar-Feiniel she was called, the White Lady of the Noldor, for she was pale though her hair was dark, and she was never arrayed but in silver and white."

First of all, this is just my opinion, but I honestly can't imagine someone like her (who loved so much to ride and hunt and hang out with Fëanorians) even *thinking* she could be happy locked up in an isolated place like Gondolin. How on Middle-earth did she end up there later on?

Then there's that (infamous?) line "to none was her heart's love given". I've always read that as if there was a strong possibility, that Aredhel could've loved one of her Fëanorian half-cousins and that the sentence meant, that to none of the sons of Fëanor was her heart given. But considering how Maeglin's crush on Idril was treated later on in the book, should that perhaps be just "to any of the Eldar in Valinor"? How did you (or do you) understand that sentence?

And there's another thing I find rather interesting. We find out in this chapter that Aredhel spent a lot of time with the sons of Fëanor, that the sons of Finarfin were good friends with sons of Fingolfin (Finrod with Turgon and Angrod and Aegnor with Fingon) and we later find out about Fingon also being "close in friendship" with Maedhros. But we hardly learn anything about the relationship between sons of Fëanor and Finarfin's children in The Silmarillion. Okay, Finrod, Maedhros and Maglor went hunting together once and we know Caranthir didn't like sons of Finarfin, but what about the rest of them? How come that Fingolfin's children (no, Turgon, nobody cares what you think :P ... alright, alright, change that into 'majority of Fingolfin's children') got along so well with at least some of the sons of Fëanor and Finarfin's children with Fingolfin's, but Finarfin's and Fëanor's hardly interacted at all? Is that only the impression we get, because there's so little said about that in Silm or did Finarfin's kids spend more time in Alqualondë with their other cousins and that's why they weren't so close to Fëanorians? Any other explanations?

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

But considering how Maeglin's crush on Idril was treated later on in the book, should that perhaps be just "to any of the Eldar in Valinor"? How did you (or do you) understand that sentence?

I'll quote myself (ha!) to you on this from my character bio of Aredhel:

A scrap of text that fascinates fanfiction writers, where, in the context of discussing her relationship with Fëanor’s sons, Tolkien says: “but to none was her heart's love given”. This could be read as indicating that it could have been possible for her to have loved one of them. Tolkien seems to have vacillated relating to when or if cousins might marry or love one another. In the story of Aredhel’s son, Maeglin, and his fatal infatuation with Idril, Tolkien writes that the “Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so” (The Silmarillion, "Of Maeglin"). This directly contradicts his statement in Morgoth’s Ring where he explains that “'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin” (Morgoth's Ring, Vol. 11 History of Middle-earth, The Later Silmarillion Part One)."

There is no way for us to say for sure exactly what he intended in that passage.

You also asked about any relationship of the sons of Finarfin with the Feanorians. There are alternative texts which mention Angrod and Aegnor as being in close friendship with the sons of Feanor, in particular Curufin and Celegorm. In fact, in the Annals of Valinor they are even cited as being on the ships which took the Feanorians across the sea to Middle-earth.

The Later Annals of Valinor also mention that Aegnor was a passenger on the ships which crossed the sea at Losgar, carrying only the followers of Fëanor and select few of those closest to them. "Fëanor and his folk seized all the ships and sailed east across the sea, and they took none of the other companies save Orodreth, Angrod, and Egnor, whom Celegorm and Curufin loved. (The Lost Road and Other Writings, The Later Annals of Valinor.)"

Christopher Tolkien took it upon himself to try to sort as well as possible what he believed were the latest determinations of his father about the events and characters. He also changed his mind and regretted decisions at times, after he had finished the published Silmarillion. It was an overwhelming and thankless task and I, for one, am very grateful to him for the massive effort, although I do not always identify most strongly with his choices. I tend to consider all of the sources when I am plotting my own derivative tales. (One of those canon heretics!)

I like a lot of the earlier versions, the ones where all of the cousins knew one another and had complex and sometimes confusing relationships in light of the fissions within the Noldor. It's more fun and more dramatic.