Silm Reread: "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

Banner by oloriel.

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Summary

In the Noontide of the Blessed Realm and its Days of Bliss, Míriel, wife of Finwë and a great weaver and embroiderer, gives birth to Fëanor. She is wearied after her pregnancy and says that she will never again bear a child. She remains weary and ends up dying in the garden of Lórien. Finwë grieves and gives all of his love to his son.

Fëanor grows up swift and strong of mind. He creates the Tengwar and discovers how to create artificial gems that shine. He marries Nerdanel, who is likewise stubborn but desires to understand rather than dominate; for a while, she manages to positively influence Fëanor. However, their marriage did not survive Fëanor’s later deeds.

Finwë eventually marries Indis, a Vanya who is entirely unlike Míriel. They have children together. But Fëanor is displeased and gives them little love. Some believe that the breech in the House of Finwë was the cause of much latter evil, and that Finwë should have been content with Fëanor. But Indis’ children have their own parts to play in the history of the Eldar.

During this time, Melkor’s imprisonment in Mandos comes to an end. He sues for pardon and feigns that he wishes to heal the hurts he’s caused. He is, for a while, constrained to live in Valmar but his good behavior releases him from his parole. Neither Ulmo nor Tulkas are deceived, but they cannot act without becoming rebels against authority themselves. Melkor thus continues with his subtle plan of discontent. He ignores the Teleri and the Vanyar pay little heed to him, but many Noldor listen to his teachings. Melkor later claims that Fëanor took instruction from him, but this is false, as Fëanor listened to no one (save briefly Nerdanel) and worked alone.

Favorite Quotes

“The love of Finwë and Míriel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss.”

“All his love he gave thereafter to his son; and Fëanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him.”

"Few ever changed [Fëanor's] courses by counsel, none by force."

“The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë. Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest.”

"Nerdanel also was firm of will, but more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them, and at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot; but his later deeds grieved her, and they became estranged. Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all."

“Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again.”

“But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.”

"For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him forever."

“But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.”

“For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought for the council of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while that of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.”



Earlier Versions

– Family issues

~ In The Book of Lost Tales 1, Fëanor’s father is Bruithwir, not Finwë. There is no mention of any brothers. (1) Finwë is Fingolfin’s (currently called Turgon) father. (2)

~ In “The Flight of the Noldoli” in The Lays of Beleriand, Fëanor has become Finwë’s son and gained his brothers. Turgon has become the name of Fingolfin’s son. (3)

~ In “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’” in The Shaping of Middle-earth, Fëanor is younger than Fingolfin, but that was swiftly switched. (4) They remain full brothers for the rest of the early/pre-LotR stages of the Silmarillion.

~ The first appearance of a story for Fëanor’s mother comes in Morgoth’s Ring in “The Annals of Aman.” This is a very brief note that was immediately crossed out. Indis bore Fëanor on the Great Journey and he was the eldest of all the second generation Elves and originally named First-begotten. Shortly afterward, Indis fell from a great height in the Misty Mountains and Finwë refused to leave the area until Oromë told him that Elves who die are reborn in Aman. (5)

~ The second appearance is also found in the Annals of Aman, where Míriel appears for the first time, as an early addition to the text. Her death is a later addition. (6) A physical description of her and her talents appears in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” chapter “Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor”, but she does not yet die. (7)

~ The first appearance of the story of Finwë, Míriel, and Indis comes after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. The general gist of the tale (Míriel dying after birthing Fëanor, Finwë wishing he could marry again, petitioning the Valar to allow it, and eventually marrying Indis) does not change from this version, though details are added and subtracted throughout the remaining versions. In this specific tale, as opposed to the bare bones summary in The Silmarillion that doesn’t even mention the Valar , Mandos speaks his judgement allowing the second marriage to occur. (8)

~ The second version is part of the longer essay “The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar”. The first half of the essay is concerned with Elven customs (of Fourth Age or later Tol Eressëa as recorded by Aelfwine). The second half, attached to the older version of LACE (as Tolkien abandoned rewriting the essay before reaching it in the newer version), is a longer version of the tale of Finwë and Míriel as well as a recounting of the debate of the Valar that led to the Statute of Finwë and Míriel. This version of the tale is greatly expanded, with more detail about Indis’ character-- such as her being a musician and swift of foot-- added. (9)

~ The third version-- called FM2-- of the story differs somewhat from the LACE text, if only to make the narrative flow in chronological and logical form. (10) The fourth text-- called FM3-- is not printed in Morgoth’s Ring because Tolkien deemed the reductions and omissions unsatisfactory and swiftly discarded it. Christopher Tolkien says that FM3 was explicitly a chapter in Quenta Silmarillion. (11)

~ The fifth text (FM4) is the final text of the story of Finwë and Míriel. In this re-expansion, little detail from previous versions was omitted. (12)

~ There is another treatment of this tale in “The Shibboleth of Fëanor.” While the tale is the background for the linguistic battle that Fëanor and the Noldor engage in, a significant change occurred: Míriel here dies after Fëanor is grown. (13)

~ Indis has more children than those listed in The Silmarillion. In Morgoth’s Ring, she has three daughters: Findis, Faniel, and Írimë/Finvain. (14) In The Peoples of Middle-earth, she has two: Findis and Írimë. (15)

~ Although Fëanor has seven sons from the earliest drafts of the Legendarium, the mother of these sons does not appear until LQ2, i.e. Tolkien's revision of the materials after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. Originally, she was named Istarnië, but even in the first typescript it was soon changed to Nerdanel. The meaning of her original name, however, was retained in her sobriquet "the Wise". The typescript offers quite a lot of detail (some of which did not make it into the published Silmarillion) such as Nerdanel's journeys on which she met Fëanor, the amazing realism of her sculptures as well as her ventures into abstract art, and how her desire to understand minds manifested itself in company. The same text introduces Fëanor's teacher and father-in-law, Mahtan. (20)

~ The "Shibboleth of Fëanor" offers some more information about Mahtan. Mahtan loved copper above all other metals, and was therefore widely known as Urundil, "copper-lover". He is also mentioned to have red-brown hair, earning him the nickname Rusco, "fox". This rare hair colour was inherited by Maedhros, Amrod and Amras. The wording seems to suggest that Nerdanel did not share this trait, but merely passed on the genes. (20) This reading is supported by a note in the Vinyar Tengwar, according to which "Nerdanel herself had brown hair and a ruddy complexion". (22)


– Concerning Melkor

~ As has been mentioned before, in the first version of this tale Melkor has been released from Mandos before the Eldar ever reached Valinor. He is living as a servant in the house of Tulkas but grows increasingly discontent and desires the jewels that the Noldor create. As Tolkien makes a point of how generous the Noldor were, Melkor probably received his fair share of gems; but this doesn't satisfy him, and he seeks to upbraid the Noldor against the Valar by telling them deep knowledge they cannot wholly comprehend, half-truths and cunning lies. Some listen to him with "half their hearts", although Nólemë (Finwë) continually refutes the falsehoods of Melkor. Melkor does not yet take a specific interest in Fëanor. (1)

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", Melkor's imprisonment in Mandos lasted for seven "ages" (at one point, Tolkien even seems to have considered nine) but now ends after Melkor has sued for pardon. Even in this early version, Ulmo and Tulkas resent Melkor's release but cannot act against it. (4)

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", Melkor also begins to "fan the flames of the heart of Fëanor". (4)

~ The "Quenta" implies that some of the Vanyar also listened to Melkor's teachings ("Gnomes [Noldor] were most of these. Of the Teleri there were none."). Here is the first mention of Melkor specifically using the Coming of Men to incite the Noldor to unrest (16); in earlier versions, he merely accused the Valar of being jealous and afraid of the Noldor's strength and skill, suppressing them and keeping them imprisoned. (1; 4)

~ The "Earliest Annals of Valinor" introduce the idea that Nienna's prayer aided the release of Melkor. Here, it is not Ulmo but Aulë who especially objects to the pardon (along with Tulkas). (17). In the "Later Annals of Valinor", Tulkas, Aulë and Oromë are recorded to (privately) object. (18) The "Annals of Aman" return this part to Ulmo and Tulkas. Poor Tulkas clenches his fists so tightly that his fingernails bite into his palms. (6)

~ The only change to the events surrounding Melkor's release that can be found in the final revision is that his term of imprisonment has now been reduced to three ages. Other than that, Tolkien seems to have been satisfied with this aspect of the Legendarium. (7)


– Miscellaneous

~ In the Book of Lost Tales, the invention of "alphabets and scripts" is ascribed to Aulë (although "aided by the Gnomes", i.e. Noldor). Fëanor has nothing to do with letters at all. (1) The "Lhammas" mentions writing and inscriptions several times, but does not say what kind of writing was used or who invented it. (19)

~ The "Annals of Aman" introduce the invention of letters by Rúmil (rather than Aulë) in the year Fëanor is born. In V.Y. 1250 (aged 71 Valian Years = 680 Sun Years), Fëanor comes up with his superior script. (6) The "Later Quenta Silmarillion" notes that Fëanor created his script "in his youth" (i.e., presumably earlier than recorded in the Annals of Aman). (7)

~ In the earlier versions, the Noldor create artifical gems (in fact, all gems appear to be a Noldorin creation). (2, 4, 16, 17) The "Later Annals of Valinor" no longer list this detail, but neither do they offer a different explanation for the origin of jewels. (18) The "Annals of Aman" finally introduce the idea that the Noldor discovered jewels while mining rather than creating them. The sole creator of artificial jewels is now Fëanor. (6)

~ The "Later Quenta Silmarillion" specifies that he also made light-stones and seeing stones (=Palantíri) as well as the Silmarils. (7)


Food for Thought

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'" and the "Quenta", it is said that Morgoth (sic!) has passed his imprisonment in the halls of Mandos "in gradually lightened pain" (4)/"each age in lightened pain" (16). Does that imply to you that Mandos has more in common with Angband than just mando, the shared Quenya element of their names?

~ In what ways do you think the history of Arda would have been different if Tolkien had stuck with the idea that Fëanor wasn't part of the Noldorin royal family?

~ Why do you think Tolkien came up with the Míriel—Finwë—Indis story after LotR’s completion?

~ Why is so much focus put on the fact that Indis is "in all ways unlike Míriel"?

~ Do you think that Tolkien changed his idea about Noldorin gem-making – from all jewels of the world being the result of Noldorin craftsmanship to a clear division between naturally occurring jewels plus the (purely Fëanorian) invention of artificial gems – in order to make Fëanor's ingenuity more apparent?

~ What do you think of LACE? Do you follow it in your stories or disregard it? Do you take pieces of it and ignore others? Do you look upon it as a binding legal document, a moral document, someone writing down what he observes, or something else entirely?

~ Do you think that if Finwë hadn’t remarried that “great evil might have been prevented” or was the fall of the Noldor inevitable?

~ Do you believe that Manwë might have been a wiser ruler of Arda if he had been able to grasp the concept of evil?

~ Nerdanel first appears in the LQ2 manuscript from around 1957. From 1951 to 1967, Christopher Tolkien was married to sculptor Faith Faulconbridge. Could there be a connection?


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 1, “The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor”
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 1, “The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr”
(3) The Lays of Beleriand, “The Flight of the Noldoli,” poem and commentary
(4) The Shaping of Middle-earth, “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion,’” 3
(5) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Annals of Aman,” The Third Section, Note 3 and Note 5
(6) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Annals of Aman,” The Fourth Section, §78 and its note in the commentary, §79, 80, 83, 88 and 89
(7) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The First Phase, “6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor,” §46b
(8) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “The Earliest Version of the Story of Finwë and Míriel”
(9) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Laws and Customs Among the Eldar”
(10) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” FM2
(11) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” FM2 ending notes (FM3)
(12) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Míriel
(13) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor”
(14) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “The Earliest Version of the Story of Finwë and Míriel”
(15) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor,” The Names of Finwë’s Descendants, 3
(16) The Shaping of Middle-earth. "The Quenta", 4
(17) The Shaping of Middle-earth. "The Earliest Annals of Valinor", 2900.
(18) The Lost Road. "The Later Annals of Valinor", V.Y. 2700.
(19) The Lost Road. "The Lhammas", 4 & 5.
(20) Morgoth's Ring. "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", The Second Phase, "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor". §46c
(21) The Peoples of Middle-earth. Late Writings: "The Shibboleth of Fëanor". "The names of the Sons of Fëanor with the legend of the fate of Amrod".
(22) Carl F. Hostetter (ed.): Vinyar Tengwar. The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship. Volume 41, July 2000. "From The Shibboleth of Fëanor".


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it! (The questions are starting points, not the only things to discuss.)

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole.

“Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor” is due March 23.

Comments

[maglor-20.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting! I'll post something more elaborate a little later; right now I'd like to link this in my journal. :)

[independence1776]

Thank you! Go ahead; Lyra and I are hosting this publically so anyone can comment, etc. :D

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I will come back later with more detail, but I just wanted to say that I have always considered LaCE a "secondary source." Many of the general statements made in it are contradicted by specific examples in other stories. Also, some of the most quoted parts (that Elves can read each other's marital status by looking into each other's eyes, and that raped Elves fade away) were specifically removed from the first version. So I really can't understand why any story would get criticized for "not following LaCE."

(I do get a bit annoyed when canonical love interests are written out, but this is not because of LaCE, but just because seeing women get written out makes me very uncomfortable.)

Oh, and also -- I agree with the suggestion about gem-making. I think I even brought it up earlier? It's all very well to be told that Feanor was a genius, but having many explicit examples of his inventions feels much more powerful.

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

some of the most quoted parts (that Elves can read each other's marital status by looking into each other's eyes, and that raped Elves fade away) were specifically removed

I was pleasantly shocked when I finally read LaCE for myself and discovered that Tolkien had chosen to cut those lines--they were the basis for so much speculation and fic! Not to mention the many layers of unreliability that Tolkien writes into the text--I mean, can you really trust something that ends with "so spoke Aelfwine?"

[independence1776]

Also, some of the most quoted parts (that Elves can read each other's marital status by looking into each other's eyes, and that raped Elves fade away) were specifically removed from the first version. So I really can't understand why any story would get criticized for "not following LaCE."

I think it's because most of the those who quote it haven't actually read it. (Morgoth's Ring isn't readily available on bookstore shelves, at least from what I've seen.) So they wouldn't know Tolkien himself removed it. But then it runs into the "everything Tolkien wrote is gospel" crowd and the "LACE? Nope" crowd and the latter is assumed to ignore Tolkien out of ignorance when it's really out of a conscious choice.

I do get a bit annoyed when canonical love interests are written out, but this is not because of LaCE, but just because seeing women get written out makes me very uncomfortable.

Me, too. And it's often done in really problematic ways.

It's all very well to be told that Feanor was a genius, but having many explicit examples of his inventions feels much more powerful.

The old adage about showing versus telling in an nutshell. :)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I agree that LaCE are (at best) a "secondary source". I am in two minds about them, really. On the one hand, I find a lot of them just absurd (such as the parts you cited); on the other hand, they're pretty much the only document on Elven everyday culture that we have, and I'm desperate for that sort of stuff. (Which is why I'll probably keep asking annoying questions about economy and stuff throughout this project!) So for that, it's got some value.
In spite of that value, though, I think it's important to remember that they're not all that reliable even in-universe (as Indy has already pointed out), and even if one wants to assume that everything Aelfwine wrote down was absolutely true and that he understood it absolutely right, it still only applies to one particular group of Elves in a specific place at a particular point in time - not all of them, everywhere and for all time.

Yes, you brought up the question last time! I thought it was a good question and fitted this chapter really well, so I sort of rehashed it. ^^
So many examples of brilliant (no pun intended) inventions are certainly more effective than just saying "Yeah, the guy was a genius". Another reason for the change, though, may be that Tolkien on the whole began to go for a more plausible mythology, and it just wasn't plausible that a couple of Elves in Valinor made all the gems in all the world ever and happily handed them out all mixed and stuff, and yet somehow they all got sorted by type throughout time and ended up in various mines all over the globe... so that bit had to be changed, and while Tolkien was at it, he may have realised that this was a good way of showing the great mind of Feanor at work, or something!

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

I remember a letter from Tolkien that addressed the subject of Melkor's release. According to this logic Manwe was (partly) aware of the damage that could follow by freeing him, but even worse would have been not keeping his promise. Had Manwe unjustly kept Morgoth in the Halls, so Tolkien implied, the following events would have been worse than what happened in the First Age. Since there are many evil!Valar stories I am inlinced to agree. So far Manwe can claim he acted with good intentions, but breaking his promise could have been the first of many acts.

Otherwise it would have been easier for everyone, had Feanor not been part of the royal family. He must have suffered through some favouritism as crownprince and his duties will have kept him away from his true calling. Fingolfin as the son of another woman, complicated the matter. Had they been brother's in full, Feanor could have been more open to the suggestion to give the crown to someone, who is more fit (and more willing) to deal with the HighKingship.

And concerning Feanor "growning swiftly" I wonder if Finwe misjudged his son? Of course he is a genius, but I doubt his emotional maturity. Since he hadn't a "normal" family on his own, I wonder if he was at least partly raised by Mathan. As his student it would been normal. In some cases Masters would even adopt their students, if they lacked children. If Indis came into the picture at the same time, it's no surprise that Feanor could never, ever make his peace with his half-silbings.

[independence1776]

I think the letter you're referring to is actually from the article "Osanwë-Kenta" published in Vinyar Tengwar. (I just checked; there isn't anything similar to what you said in Letters.) I've only read it a couple of times, but it sounds familar.

Basically: that if the Valar had broken their laws and their own oath, they would have turned into tyrants themselves. They would have lost their moral authority to rule, or as you said, "it would have been the first of many acts."

As for Fëanor, I don't think it's ever said when he apprenticed to Mahtan. I'd always assumed he was an adult.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

According to this logic Manwe was (partly) aware of the damage that could follow by freeing him, but even worse would have been not keeping his promise.

That's a really interesting and understandable point! I haven't come across it before, but it absolutely makes sense, and certainly bears a lot more weight than just "Manwe just didn't get evil". I'll have to track that one down!

Had they been brother's in full, Feanor could have been more open to the suggestion to give the crown to someone, who is more fit (and more willing) to deal with the HighKingship.

I'm not sure Feanor would have been unfit (let alone unwilling - otherwise, that would certainly have been a lot less of a contentive issue!) to deal with kingship? (It's not "high" kingship, at any rate; Feanor is not the least bit related to Ingwe, who is High King in Valinor.) Sure, he had other things on his mind, but he seems to have the kind of mind that thrives on several challenges at once. ;)

Since he hadn't a "normal" family on his own, I wonder if he was at least partly raised by Mathan. As his student it would been normal.

He surely lived in his master's house for the time of his apprenticeship, but as Indy says, it doesn't actually say anywhere how old Feanor was at the time. Personally, I like to think that it was a normal teenage-to-young-adulthood apprenticeship, but the line "Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day wen he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork..." (from Chapter 7, "Of the Silmarils") really suggests that Feanor was already married to Nerdanel by the time he learned from Mahtan - i.e., an adult (or very nearly one).
I also doubt that Finwe, having lost his son's mother, would easily have let the son be raised by anyone but himself. Perhaps Finwe was what we today call a helicopter parent, and when finally his attention was divided between Feanor and Indis, Feanor was jealous about that?

[sigridhr.livejournal.com]

Sorry for dropping in totally out of nowhere.

According to this logic Manwe was (partly) aware of the damage that could follow by freeing him, but even worse would have been not keeping his promise.

This is super interesting – and as people have said, much more compelling than 'Manwë doesn't understand evil' – but it still raises the question, for me, why, when Melkor was getting all chummy-chummy with the Noldor, the Noldor weren't warned of what he might potentially be capable of? Given Melkor's tendency to sow discord, forewarned really would've been forearmed and all that.

[moetushie]

“But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.”

I am always glad they kept this part in! Because I agree with the sentiments. The story would have been much poorer if not for Fingolfin & co.

As for the LaCE, uh... They're guidelines, and it's not like the characters I'm especially interested in are big into following rules that don't suit them...

I usually simply omit them from my stories, although the basics I do keep. I'm more interested about the role of names, really, than marriage customs.

[independence1776]

Yes, it would have been poorer. (And here my bias shows: and Elrond. :P )

t's not like the characters I'm especially interested in are big into following rules that don't suit them...

This had me laughing. Far too true!

I like the year-long engagement and the rings I like, as well as the naming information and the Houseless. Beyond that… I ignore LACE.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I agree with the sentiments also! To be honest, I don't even get the mindset of the (speculative) people who honestly seem to believe that if Finwë hadn't remarried and begot further offspring, the Noldor would happily have stayed in Valinor forever after. Aside from the fact that Melkor surely would've found some way of causing dissent with or without Fingolfin & co extant, that's just a lot to assume, isn't it?

They're guidelines, and it's not like the characters I'm especially interested in are big into following rules that don't suit them...

Heh!
I also find it interesting that one "Law" that's laid down in the LaCE - the one about Eldar marrying once in life, and forever - is disproved in the very same piece of writing, because Finwë did marry twice, and both marriages were considered void at some point (or "estranged" at the very least). So the same place that pronounces a rule... also offers an example for breaking that rule. Sure, under very specific circumstances, but nonetheless! :D

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

I love the different stories Tolkien came up with for Finwe's marriage before he settled on the final version--especially the tale of Indis, the wife who died in Middle-earth. Even thought that particular story-line was rejected for Finwe, I imagine plenty of his followers must have lost family members in similar accidents--can you imagine what it must have been like to learn from Orome, for the first time, that all those people weren't dead forever?

I also love the little characterization hints we get for various wives, some of which are never mentioned again. Miriel invents the needle (or does that sentence just mean she invented embroidery?), Miriel and Vaire as life partners supportive friends, and Nerdanel and Indis! Not to mention the story of Finwe in Mandos, sacrificing his chance at re-embodiment so that both his wives can live freely...

I suppose I don't have an answer for WHY Tolkien made the changes he did to Finwe's marriage. I certainly think his bizarre moral stance on divorce (wrong and represents a "failure of hope"!?) is undermined by the complexity of the story as he wrote it: I felt equally sympathetic to all three parties, and I wish more of their conflict had made it into the Silm as published.

[independence1776]

especially the tale of Indis, the wife who died in Middle-earth.

I had no idea that was even briefly considered before I started research for this!

can you imagine what it must have been like to learn from Orome, for the first time, that all those people weren't dead forever?

What I find interesting is when that happened. There's nothing dealing with it in the Silm itself, so it could have happened at Cuivíenen or as the note says, on the journey. If earlier, could that have been a reason for people to travel to Valinor? And if on the journey, what marriage customs be like in Cuivíenen or among the Avari?

Miriel invents the needle (or does that sentence just mean she invented embroidery?)

I think it just means embriodery; it's hard to have clothes without needles. I, too, love the details. It fleshes the characters out more.

I certainly think his bizarre moral stance on divorce (wrong and represents a "failure of hope"!?) is undermined by the complexity of the story as he wrote it

I actually understand a bit his stance (I was raised Catholic)-- it's a failing to live up to the vows you swore before God and thus a sin. But as I think divorce can be a good thing, I'm probably not the best person to explain this. I do think the complexity does shine light on the problems-- that people can fall in love more than once and wish to remarry. But the sacrifices the Elves have to make (stay dead forever)-- it doesn't seem just or fair to anyone involved.

I felt equally sympathetic to all three parties, and I wish more of their conflict had made it into the Silm as published.

Me, too. I like all three of them and it's just a problem with no good answer. There's no one who takes the lion's share of the blame, and that's how it should be, I think.

[dreamflower]

I always felt that the Valar were pretty naïve about Melkor!

I don't write much about Elves, and so I feel free to cherry-pick the parts that suit me. In my stories, LaCE is usually filtered through hobbit eyes, and in my 'verse, hobbits as well as Elves mate for life.

Tolkien had some very extreme views on the sanctity of marriage, even beyond the RC disapproval of divorce. (It was CS Lewis' marriage to a divorcee that put the greatest strain on the friendship between him and JRRT.) But he clearly also felt that the tie between husband and wife was not merely "till death do us part". He even indicated that many hobbits would fade as well, when they lost a spouse, and that it was extremely unusual for them to remarry. It's clear that he did not think well of remarrying!

I wonder how much of his views were influenced by an idealistic picture of his lost mother, and how much they were influenced by his extremely conservative guardian, Father Morgan?

[independence1776]

He even indicated that many hobbits would fade as well, when they lost a spouse, and that it was extremely unusual for them to remarry. It's clear that he did not think well of remarrying!

I did not know that about the hobbits! That definitely indicates a greater issue (which may not be the right word, but it's what I'm coming up with) than just "crap, immortal Elves want to remarry; how do I fix this?"

I wonder how much of his views were influenced by an idealistic picture of his lost mother, and how much they were influenced by his extremely conservative guardian, Father Morgan?

That is a very good question. I don't think we'll ever have an answer to it.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Anyone else think it might have been interesting to know where Feanor's exceptional abilities stemmed from? Finwe, for a Noldo, does not seem to show signs of having an excess of the typical Noldorin gifts. Except for wanting to break the rules.

Aule had a position on this: "This child [Fëanor] is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar. But the Eldar are the first Children of Eru, and belong to him directly. Therefore the greatness of the child must proceed from his will directly, and be intended for the good of the Eldar and of all Arda. What then of the cost of the birth? Must it not be thought that the greatness and the cost come not from Arda, Marred or Unmarred, but from beyond Arda?" Morgoth's Ring, Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

How about the Valar and Melkor? Tolkien gives a pretty weak defense for why it is that Manwe trusts that his brother has been rehabilitated.

This is one of my favorite chapters, because it sets up the conflict for the entire Silmarillion. But I think I am too tired and cranky tonight. Will have to return when I am in a better mood.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Well, Miriel was canonically exceptionally creative and skilled, and she did pour a lot of herself into Feanor. So one could theorize that it's her gifts, backed up by Finwe's greater strength? (I feel conflicted about Miriel. On the one hand, she is clearly an undervalued and ignored character -- she was skilled as a creator, both of crafts and of craftsmen. Well, *a* craftsman. On the other hand, while she did, in her own way, rebel, the way she did it is so... passive. I prefer characters with plenty of grit and stamina. And agency.)

Oh, and Aule sounds a bit biased to me, there. Of course he would think that a genius smith/jewelmaker is the most genius of all geniuses! I wonder whether the other Valar would not have different opinions. (Not that Feanor was not a genius -- I sympathize with the jewel-making in particular. But that position sounds very extreme.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I have no particular concern about Elves not being able to divorce because I simply take it as a fact about the species, to be used as a handy parameter in world-building, like Dwarf women having beards and being only one-third of the Dwarf population. It has nothing to do with my own opinions about divorce as a phenomenon. LaCE similarly is a useful source to be mined for use as seems appropriate.

I find it interesting to look at the differences between Celebrimbor and Feanor, given that based on Celebrimbor's actual achievements he seems to have been quite as great a genius as Feanor and a much nicer person. Of course it's unfortunate that he chose to collaborate with quite the wrong party, but in principle, if Feanor had been a bit more of a team player, things would have been better for everyone all round. If he been willing to make some spare Silmarils for Varda and Yavanna, for instance (unlikely that Melkor and Ungoliant would have found it so easy to mug them) or even publish his notes...

It does speak well of Feanor that he chose someone clever and sensible to marry in the first place, whatever happened afterwards.

I don't think the Fall of the Noldor was inevitable. There were many points where things could have been different. If Finwe had run with his grandsons when Ungoliant and Melkor came to Formenos, if Feanor's sons had supported their mother instead of their father, if people had known that Feanor might need a bit of therapy when his father married again (no reason why they should have, since it hadn't happened before), if someone else had got to the Noldor before Feanor when the Trees were killed, with a different message, if the Noldor had been better organised when they set out, so that decisions weren't being taken ad hoc and in the heat of the moment (such as at Alqualonde). If Este had quietly slipped Feanor a Valar-strength sedative when the bad news from Formenos came...

Indis strikes me as having been a cheerful sort and much less high-maintenance than Miriel. Though MIriel was obviously a creative genius herself, and where Feanor got it from.

I am not sure that the concept of evil is relevant or indeed that there is such a thing separate from individuals and their deeds. I am quite certain that Melkor didn't think of himself as evil, because who does if they are sane? There are sadists and sociopaths and irretrievably selfish or self-interested people, but evil deeds are judged by their consequences, and the judgement depends on who is doing the judging. As a just ruler, Manwe was obligated to fulfill his word and give Melkor the benefit of the doubt, because Melkor hadn't given evidence of continued hostile intentions at that point. Which is fair and how one would want a god to behave. Unlike a human ruler, Manwe does not have the option of hypocrisy, i.e. letting a plausibly deniable flunky do his dirty work for him while keeping his own hands ostensibly clean.

Though perhaps slightly closer surveillance might have been a good thing.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I have no particular concern about Elves not being able to divorce because I simply take it as a fact about the species, to be used as a handy parameter in world-building, like Dwarf women having beards and being only one-third of the Dwarf population.

See, for me, neither of these make sense as "facts about the species". (Good for you if it does - that's certainly less of a hassle! ;)) Elves are terribly long-living, so leaving some lee-way for them to possibly change partners seems as reasonable to me as allowing for changing tastes and interests. As for Dwarves, I can't believe they don't practice polyandry, if Dwarf-women really are so much of a minority (rather than biased observers believing they're rare because they can't easily tell them apart from the men, or didn't often see any!). I mean, I'm not surprised Tolkien didn't (want to) consider these options, but as far as handiness in world-building is concerned... I remain unconvinced. ^^ Independent of my personal opinions on divorce (or polyandry)!

If Este had quietly slipped Feanor a Valar-strength sedative when the bad news from Formenos came...

Wouldn't that just have postponed his rebellion? I don't see Fëanor taking kindly to that sort of "meddling"... though of course by that time, he might have found getting a large enough following more difficult.
I somehow doubt that among a people like the Noldor, it would take Fëanor personally (and Fëanor with that particular personal history) in order to cause "unrest". Melkor would have found a point of leverage regardless, I'm sure - or maybe it wouldn't even have taken Melkor, just time!

Indis strikes me as having been a cheerful sort and much less high-maintenance than Miriel.

Definitely less high-maintenance (the way I read those two, anyway)! XD

I am quite certain that Melkor didn't think of himself as evil, because who does if they are sane?

Well, is Melkor sane? ;)

As a just ruler, Manwe was obligated to fulfill his word and give Melkor the benefit of the doubt, because Melkor hadn't given evidence of continued hostile intentions at that point.

That's a really, really good point. I feel somewhat embarrassed that I've completely overlooked that fact so far, because now that it's been pointed out, it makes so much sense!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

On the change in function of Mandos from being a place of punishment to being a place of contemplation (and where necessary intensive psychotherapy), this seems to be part of Tolkien's long move away from using specifically Christian mythological concepts as the basis of his Secondary World. Especially in respect of the Elves, for whom the ideas of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory would have been quite inappropriate. And in-world, telling the Elves that if they died they would be punished by the Valar would work as part of the lies that Melkor was spreading to alienate the Noldor from the Valar.

[independence1776]

That brings into question exactly how much the Elves knew of how the Halls work. Did they arrive in Valinor knowing that they could again see those who died? Did they know how long it takes for them to be reembodied? Did they know that some couldn't or wouldn't be? And if they knew none of that, how did the Elves who remained in Valinor react to learning that Fëanor (and likely his sons) would never be re-embodied? Did they view it as a just punishment or did some of them begin to think that maybe some of the lies were accurate?

(Which are all rather unanswerable, of course, but they're worth asking.)

[maglor-20.livejournal.com]

Why is so much focus put on the fact that Indis is "in all ways unlike Míriel"?

That's a very interesting question, though I don't think there's any correct way to answer it. I don't have The Silmarillon or HoME with me, so I'll have to work from memory, if you'll pardon me. Personally, I think there are a few possibilities, not necessarily consistent with one another:

-I think Finwë clearly loved Míriel dearly. Having said that, it's possible that she wasn't entirely right for him, particularly with regard to his desire for a large, happy family. Elves, if we are to believe C.T., love very deeply, and, even judging by examples from The Silmarillion, it's not usual that they love more than once. Indis, I feel, might not have been so much a 'replacement' as a more suitable partner for Finwë. Given that Míriel offered a very large part of her spirit to one child, I think it's possible that she's not the sort who wants a big family. 'Having said that, my head-canon is that Finwë was more deeply in love with Míriel than he could be with anyone else. I just can't picture him grieving so much over another woman.

-For me, it also connects to Fëanor. I think he would have disliked his step-mother either way, but that Indis is very different to Míriel to me suggests that Fëanor would have been free to accuse his father of loving "just anyone" - not even a kind of similar replacement for his mother and for her singular personality.

-On a general level, the person you love romantically doesn't have to be a "type". It could also indicate that romantic love in Tolkien's legendarium is less about compatible personalities and more about spiritual connections, for want of a better term.

What do you think of LACE? Do you follow it in your stories or disregard it? Do you take pieces of it and ignore others? Do you look upon it as a binding legal document, a moral document, someone writing down what he observes, or something else entirely?

I think it's a very intriguing essay, and one that I read with gusto when I first got my hands on it. I'd like to consider it canon, but I feel it's too inconsistent to be that. Also, since it was published posthumously, I don't think we can really know what the professor might have finally decided on, esp. since he changed his ideas quite frequently. Hence, I generally take the essay as a set of incomplete guidelines that don't have to be followed rigidly.

[independence1776]

I don't think there's any correct way to answer it, either. But it's one of those things that's fun to discuss just because there are so many interpretations.

It could also indicate that romantic love in Tolkien's legendarium is less about compatible personalities and more about spiritual connections, for want of a better term.

That makes sense to me, and I think it plays into the "love at first sight" thing Beren and Aragorn (among others) have going on. It's not just that they're beautiful; it's that they're the right person.

[havamahal.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is turning more into reread of HoMe than Silm… (sorry about the length of this post and my terrible English)


~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'" and the "Quenta", it is said that Morgoth (sic!) has passed his imprisonment in the halls of Mandos "in gradually lightened pain" (4)/"each age in lightened pain" (16). Does that imply to you that Mandos has more in common with Angband than just mando, the shared Quenya element of their names?

I suppose it does, in many ways. I highly doubt Morgoth (or any of the souls that dwelt there) were tortured there, but as far as imprisonment goes, I'd say, yep, it's pretty much the same. One could argue that Mandos is even worse than Angband, since it was possible to escape from Morgoth's fortress, but not from the Halls of Mandos.

I often think that's how Fëanor felt about the Halls of Mandos, after he ended up there forever. And that Námo wasn't that different from Morgoth, keeping him there basically against his will, refusing to release him to be re-embodied. (whether he deserved that or not, is – at least in my opinion – debatable.)

I'm pretty sure Morgoth found it humiliating he was imprisoned by the other Valar and doing nothing + being under constant watch of Námo for 3 ages (pretending he regretted his old ways) wasn't exactly a picnic for him. My take on that line "in gradually lightened pain" is, that it means that with each age Morgoth found it easier to cope with the imprisonment, since the day of his "parole hearing" was coming closer, not that he was tortured less or anything like that.

~ In what ways do you think the history of Arda would have been different if Tolkien had stuck with the idea that Fëanor wasn't part of the Noldorin royal family?

That's a difficult question. I'm guessing it wouldn't have been much different – minus the conflict in Finwë's family. The only question is, would Finwë still be killed, if he wouldn't be in Formenos at the time of the Darkening, and if he were alive, when Fëanor tried to convince the Noldor to leave the Blessed Realm, would he be able to stop at least some of them from leaving?

~ Why is so much focus put on the fact that Indis is "in all ways unlike Míriel"?

This is just my opinion, but I think it could've been done for two reasons. One was most likely to emphasize why Fëanor disliked Indis (and his half-brothers later on) so much. She was so much unlike his mother, it was nearly impossible for Fëanor to form any kind of warm relationship with her, especially after the whole þ > s fiasco. Fëanor was very much like his mother and Tolkien's description of Indis shows they really didn't have much in common. If Finwë at least married a Noldo, they'd share passion for crafts and lore. Her being a Vanya certainly couldn't have made her more popular in Fëanor's eyes, since the Vanyar were also big fans of the Valar and you can only imagine, what Fëanáro thought of the Valar, after they had decided his mother would have to stay in the Halls of Mandos forever. Knowing that Indis was in love with his father, when Míriel was still very much alive probably didn't help the matter either. The other reason could be (or at least that's what I would've done) to show, that Finwë was hardly a saint or a "perfect" Elf (so basically, to show that "flaw" in Noldor). It certainly looks like he wasn't the easiest man to live with. Two wives, both with very different character, different looks, from different cultures… and both of those marriages failed. Míriel died and refused to return, while the marriage with Indis finally fell apart, when Finwë joined Fëanor in Formenos instead of staying with his wife and their children. Now, one failed marriage… well, it can happen to anyone, right? Two of them…? Hmm… considering the Eldar were supposed to be beings, who rarely made mistakes in choosing the right person for them… :/ (Oh, and I'm sure Indis was "thrilled" to hear the news, that her husband chose to remain in the Halls of Mandos forever, so that his first wife could be released.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Wow, this is turning more into reread of HoMe than Silm… (sorry about the length of this post and my terrible English)

Yeah, this chapter was really heavy on the HoME stuff. So many developments for such a short chapter! Sorry about that!
(And no need to apologise for either. We're happy about everyone who takes part in these discussions, and if you're doing it in a language other than your own, that's all the more worthy of respect! Not that I see anything terrible about your English, but then, I'm not a native speaker myself.)

My take on that line "in gradually lightened pain" is, that it means that with each age Morgoth found it easier to cope with the imprisonment, since the day of his "parole hearing" was coming closer, not that he was tortured less or anything like that.

You're probably right! Or maybe he was given small liberties with every passing age, from total isolation and inprisonment - which a spirit like Melkor would surely find horrible to bear, even without (additional) torment! - towards being allowed to talk to Námo's Maiar, being given information about the outside work or being allowed to breathe fresh air for a limited time each day. We did find the wording interesting, though! It's important to remember that Mandos is, among other things, a prison (rather than a hospital or meditation chamber ;)) - and an inescapable one, as you rightly point out!

The only question is, would Finwë still be killed, if he wouldn't be in Formenos at the time of the Darkening, and if he were alive, when Fëanor tried to convince the Noldor to leave the Blessed Realm, would he be able to stop at least some of them from leaving?

Oh, that's a really fascinating question! If we further follow the BoLT 1 version, Finwë indeed tries to keep the Noldor from leaving or at least send a message to Manwë first, but when he finds that they're determined to follow Fëanor, he doesn't want to be parted from his people and thus goes with them. So in that version, no, Finwë isn't killed (he was banished from Tirion, just as well as all other Noldor, but presumably took part in the festival that Melkor used as cover for his attack), but it seems he has less sway over his people than Fëanor has after the Darkening.
But of course, that's not the only way things could have panned out, and it's indeed fascinating to consider a version of the story in which Finwë succeeds in holding the Noldor - or some of them, anyway! - back...

The other reason could be (or at least that's what I would've done) to show, that Finwë was hardly a saint or a "perfect" Elf (so basically, to show that "flaw" in Noldor). It certainly looks like he wasn't the easiest man to live with.

Oh wow, I've never seen that explanation, but it makes perfect sense! Especially considering how much blame is given Míriel's stubbornness, and how Finwë (much later) refuses reembodiment himself because wah, wah, Indis doesn't miss me anyway (paraphrasing here! ;)), this would really be an effective way of pointing out that Finwë really wasn't blameless, and that it wasn't just Míriel's particularly difficult character that made her refuse to return. Ooooh, fascinating!

(I'll reply to your other comments once I get the chance, too - for now, this must suffice! Again, thank you for joining, ad thanks for raising such awesome points!)

[havamahal.livejournal.com]

~ What do you think of LACE? Do you follow it in your stories or disregard it? Do you take pieces of it and ignore others? Do you look upon it as a binding legal document, a moral document, someone writing down what he observes, or something else entirely?

LACE is a very interesting document, but also - as we all know - a very unreliable one. I honestly can't take something that says the Eldar are reborn as children to another set of parents too seriously, because to me it makes absolutely no sense. I'm really glad Tolkien decided to change that one. I can accept the parts about naming and dead Elves going to the Halls of Mandos. Marriage… that is a tricky one. I like the idea of Eldar marrying only once (you know, apart from Finwë, who apparently had special privileges as the King of Noldor :P) and love the idea that "it was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage". The Eldar being stuck with each other until the end of Arda (unless one of them decides to stay in Mandos forever), especially if there wasn't much love between them from the beginning or knowing they were making a mistake by getting married right from the start… what could be more fun than that? ;)) So yeah, basically I'm in the "take what you like and ignore the rest" club.

In my opinion HoMe is the perfect example how almost nothing Tolkien wrote is set in stone (except for The Hobbit and LOTR, I suppose). There are so many different versions of almost everything, it's hard to take anything as definite canon. Good news for fanfic writers, bad news for Tolkien scholars. ;) And it's certainly not easy convincing me something is canon. Who knows how many boxes of Tolkien's writings are still hidden away in someone's dusty basement… ;) What's canon today, could be ancient history tomorrow.

~ Do you think that if Finwë hadn’t remarried that “great evil might have been prevented” or was the fall of the Noldor inevitable?

With Melkor out there, how could it be possibly prevented? I think Finwë's remarriage was just something that brought the fall of the Noldor a bit sooner, than it would've happened without it. The Noldor simply weren't the type of Elves to sit happily in the Blessed Realm, singing songs to the mighty Valar and do whatever they were told. They were headstrong and restless and they would've left Valinor sooner or later. I don't know how could anyone think that kinslayings for example could have been prevented, "if only Finwë hadn't remarried". Silmarils would still be created, Morgoth would still find a way to steal them and Fëanor would still convince the Noldor to go to Beleriand. And Fëanor and his boys would still do anything to get their jewels back. :/

~ Do you believe that Manwë might have been a wiser ruler of Arda if he had been able to grasp the concept of evil?

Oh boy… don't even get me started on Manwë. I'm tempted to say that, since Melkor and Manwë were brothers in the thought of Ilúvatar, one of them got the looks and the other one the brains (I think you can guess which one got which), but then I'd probably insult people, who actually like the Valar, and that's the last thing I want. (uh, sorry? *ducks*)

I think Manwë was the wrong choice for the ruler of Arda to begin with. He's clueless about everything, doesn't really understand the nature of the Children of Ilúvatar or what they need/what's best for them, isn't "able to grasp the concept of evil", and yet his word is the Law. Hmm… why is he the King of Arda again? Because he's noble? (Great choice, Eru. Well done! :/) I'll never understand why wasn't Ulmo chosen to be the ruler of Arda. He's smart, isn't fooled by Melkor (as we also see in this chapter), he's compassionate and actually gives a damn about what happens to Arda and people on it. And yet he's constantly ignored and ends up helping the Elves and Men alone. Why???

[independence1776]

There are so many different versions of almost everything, it's hard to take anything as definite canon. Good news for fanfic writers, bad news for Tolkien scholars.

Exactly! It's why I don't understand the fandom arguments about using different versions or ignoring HoME altogether. There can never be any 100% true canon and no one is ever going to agree about the same things.

To give Manwë some credit, I don't think any of the Valar truly understand the Children. (I also like the version where Melkor's released because not doing so would make Manwë a tyrant, but I discussed that up-thread somewhere.)

I don't think Ulmo would want the position even if offered it; he'd be stuck ruling-- which has to involve something we don't see-- and not really a free agent to help. In some ways, I think he's the "good" rebel because he does it to help people, not for himself. Rebellion within limits, maybe. (And I don't know where I'm going with this, so I'll stop before I confuse myself.)

[havamahal.livejournal.com]

There's another thing I found very interesting, as I was going through Morgoth's Ring for this topic. (I think this is from the 'A note on certain conceptions in the story of Finwe and Miriel') As C. Tolkien explains:

The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to 'death': they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained 'identical'. But Miriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth. 'But Miriel wished to abandon being': this is a dark saying. There is nothing in any of the accounts to suggest that she desired annihilation, the ending of her existence in any form. In Laws and Customs (p. 222) my father wrote that 'some fear in grief or weariness gave up hope, and turning away from life relinquished their bodies, even though these might have been healed or were indeed unhurt. Few of these... desired to be re-born, not at least until they had been long in "waiting"; some never returned.' This surely accords with what is told of the death of Miriel.

It seems, at any rate, that when my father said here that Miriel 'tried to die' he meant that she sought a 'true death': not a 'seeming death', but a departure for ever out of Arda. Yet this could not be: for death in this sense was contrary to 'the given nature of the Elves', appointed by Iluvatar; and indeed, in Of Finwe' and Miriel ($20) Mandos spoke to the fea of Miriel, saying: 'In Mandos thou shalt abide. But take heed! Thou art of the Quendi, and even if thou refuse the body, thou must remain in Arda and within the time of its history.'

This brings me to several questions:

- Why did Miriel want "true death"? We know she was "consumed in body and spirit", but to want to die "permanently", to be removed from Arda forever, isn't that a bit too much? Did she really suffer that much, that even the thought of one day returning to her husband and son (healed, of course) was not enough to make her want to stay? It is said she didn't believe there was healing for her in Arda, but why would she believe she could be cured outside of it? If she didn't believe the words of the Valar, that she could find healing in the Halls of Mandos, why would she believe them anything they said about Eru and life beyond Arda? :/

- Was Míriel the only one, who (apparently) desired "true death" or was this quite common for the Elves?

- Why was what was denied to Míriel, so freely given to Lúthien? Because Little Miss Perfect was part Maia or simply because she charmed the pants off Námo? (Poor Míriel… if she only knew that a bit of flirting with Námo would get her what she wanted.)

[independence1776]

I think in some ways Míriel was a portent for what the Elves would go through as the Ages pass. Because I can see more and more Elves wishing for a true death as time goes on; living that long sounds wearying. And if she thought that she couldn't find healing in Mandos, because she would be expected to live and live and live-- maybe she did believe that she would find it outside of time.

The difference between Míriel and Lúthien also comes down to their marriages: Finwë wanted another wife, which would be impossible if Míriel returned; Lúthien only had eyes for Beren and they were the only two to successfully retrieve a Silmaril from Morgoth. (And I wouldn't doubt authorial self-inserts here played a role in the latter.) But then, Lúthien's one of my favorite characters-- I love Míriel, too-- so I'm a bit biased.

[havamahal.livejournal.com]

Another rather interesting paragraph made me realize, the only reason why an Elf couldn't have two (or more) spouses (as LACE claims), is basically because a) it wouldn't be fair (like it was fair the "Great Ones" allowed Morgoth to slaughter a few thousand Elves in Beleriand, right?) and b) because the Valar said so? Huh?

But this Mandos forbade. 'Nay,' said he, 'if Miriel were rehoused, she would be again among the Living, and Finwe would have two spouses alive in Aman. Thus would the Statute be contravened, and my Doom set at naught. And injury would be done also to Indis, who used the liberty of the Statute, but would now by its breach be deprived, for Finwe would desire to return to his former spouse.'


And then there's that little thing called "blackmail" (from Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor, Of Finwe and Miriel), that Finwë tried, which almost made me seriously dislike him.

$16 Then Manwe called Finwe to him, and said: 'Thou hast heard the doom that has been declared. If Miriel, thy wife, will not return, your (6) marriage is ended, and thou hast leave to take another wife. But this is permission, not counsel. For the severance cometh from the marring of Arda; and those who accept this permission accept the marring, whereas the bereaved who remain steadfast belong in spirit and will to Arda Unmarred. This is a grave matter upon which the fate of many may depend. Be not in haste!'

$17 Finwe answered: 'I am in no haste, My Lord, and my heart has no desire, save the hope that when this doom is made clear to Miriel, she may yet relent and set a term to my bereavement.'

I mean, WTF, Finwë? You threaten your wife, that you'll end your marriage, if she won't return to you, and expect her to happily run back into your arms?! You know what, I'm with Míriel on this one. She was right to stay dead!


(sorry, but I had to split the post into 4 parts, since it wouldn't let me post the whole thing) :(

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

the only reason why an Elf couldn't have two (or more) spouses (as LACE claims), is basically because a) it wouldn't be fair (like it was fair the "Great Ones" allowed Morgoth to slaughter a few thousand Elves in Beleriand, right?) and b) because the Valar said so?

Yep. Another fine example for why the LaCE are an... interesting document, I guess!
(Of course, some may be willing to accept "Because the Valar said so" as an argument for anything. Which is fine, if it works for them, of course! Doesn't work for me though.)

You threaten your wife, that you'll end your marriage, if she won't return to you, and expect her to happily run back into your arms?

But of course! That's totally the perfect way of charming a physically and spiritually exhausted woman back into your arms! :P
Finwë brings another "delightful" line when he moans to Vairë that Indis didn't come to see him for many years before he was killed, and that Indis loves her children and her father better than him, whine whine (manuscript A of the LaCE). On the plus side, it results in his decision to stay in Mandos so that Míriel can now be reembodied; but I think it really neatly fits with what you said in your first comment, concerning Finwë's character. I guess we know now where Fëanor got his "were you a true wife" (cf. Shibboleth) attitude...