Silm Reread: "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor" Discussion Post

[independence1776]

Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

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Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk!

Summary

In the Noontide of the Blessed Realm and its Days of Bliss, Míriel, wife of Finwë and a great weaver and embroiderer, gives birth to Fëanor. She is wearied after her pregnancy and says that she will never again bear a child. She remains weary and ends up dying in the garden of Lórien. Finwë grieves and gives all of his love to his son.

Fëanor grows up swift and strong of mind. He creates the Tengwar and discovers how to create artificial gems that shine. He marries Nerdanel, who is likewise stubborn but desires to understand rather than dominate; for a while, she manages to positively influence Fëanor. However, their marriage did not survive Fëanor’s later deeds.

Finwë eventually marries Indis, a Vanya who is entirely unlike Míriel. They have children together. But Fëanor is displeased and gives them little love. Some believe that the breech in the House of Finwë was the cause of much latter evil, and that Finwë should have been content with Fëanor. But Indis’ children have their own parts to play in the history of the Eldar.

During this time, Melkor’s imprisonment in Mandos comes to an end. He sues for pardon and feigns that he wishes to heal the hurts he’s caused. He is, for a while, constrained to live in Valmar but his good behavior releases him from his parole. Neither Ulmo nor Tulkas are deceived, but they cannot act without becoming rebels against authority themselves. Melkor thus continues with his subtle plan of discontent. He ignores the Teleri and the Vanyar pay little heed to him, but many Noldor listen to his teachings. Melkor later claims that Fëanor took instruction from him, but this is false, as Fëanor listened to no one (save briefly Nerdanel) and worked alone.

Favorite Quotes

“The love of Finwë and Míriel was great and glad, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss.”

“All his love he gave thereafter to his son; and Fëanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him.”

"Few ever changed [Fëanor's] courses by counsel, none by force."

“The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë. Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest.”

"Nerdanel also was firm of will, but more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them, and at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot; but his later deeds grieved her, and they became estranged. Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all."

“Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again.”

“But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.”

"For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him forever."

“But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.”

“For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought for the council of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while that of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.”



Earlier Versions

– Family issues

~ In The Book of Lost Tales 1, Fëanor’s father is Bruithwir, not Finwë. There is no mention of any brothers. (1) Finwë is Fingolfin’s (currently called Turgon) father. (2)

~ In “The Flight of the Noldoli” in The Lays of Beleriand, Fëanor has become Finwë’s son and gained his brothers. Turgon has become the name of Fingolfin’s son. (3)

~ In “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’” in The Shaping of Middle-earth, Fëanor is younger than Fingolfin, but that was swiftly switched. (4) They remain full brothers for the rest of the early/pre-LotR stages of the Silmarillion.

~ The first appearance of a story for Fëanor’s mother comes in Morgoth’s Ring in “The Annals of Aman.” This is a very brief note that was immediately crossed out. Indis bore Fëanor on the Great Journey and he was the eldest of all the second generation Elves and originally named First-begotten. Shortly afterward, Indis fell from a great height in the Misty Mountains and Finwë refused to leave the area until Oromë told him that Elves who die are reborn in Aman. (5)

~ The second appearance is also found in the Annals of Aman, where Míriel appears for the first time, as an early addition to the text. Her death is a later addition. (6) A physical description of her and her talents appears in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” chapter “Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor”, but she does not yet die. (7)

~ The first appearance of the story of Finwë, Míriel, and Indis comes after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. The general gist of the tale (Míriel dying after birthing Fëanor, Finwë wishing he could marry again, petitioning the Valar to allow it, and eventually marrying Indis) does not change from this version, though details are added and subtracted throughout the remaining versions. In this specific tale, as opposed to the bare bones summary in The Silmarillion that doesn’t even mention the Valar , Mandos speaks his judgement allowing the second marriage to occur. (8)

~ The second version is part of the longer essay “The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar”. The first half of the essay is concerned with Elven customs (of Fourth Age or later Tol Eressëa as recorded by Aelfwine). The second half, attached to the older version of LACE (as Tolkien abandoned rewriting the essay before reaching it in the newer version), is a longer version of the tale of Finwë and Míriel as well as a recounting of the debate of the Valar that led to the Statute of Finwë and Míriel. This version of the tale is greatly expanded, with more detail about Indis’ character-- such as her being a musician and swift of foot-- added. (9)

~ The third version-- called FM2-- of the story differs somewhat from the LACE text, if only to make the narrative flow in chronological and logical form. (10) The fourth text-- called FM3-- is not printed in Morgoth’s Ring because Tolkien deemed the reductions and omissions unsatisfactory and swiftly discarded it. Christopher Tolkien says that FM3 was explicitly a chapter in Quenta Silmarillion. (11)

~ The fifth text (FM4) is the final text of the story of Finwë and Míriel. In this re-expansion, little detail from previous versions was omitted. (12)

~ There is another treatment of this tale in “The Shibboleth of Fëanor.” While the tale is the background for the linguistic battle that Fëanor and the Noldor engage in, a significant change occurred: Míriel here dies after Fëanor is grown. (13)

~ Indis has more children than those listed in The Silmarillion. In Morgoth’s Ring, she has three daughters: Findis, Faniel, and Írimë/Finvain. (14) In The Peoples of Middle-earth, she has two: Findis and Írimë. (15)

~ Although Fëanor has seven sons from the earliest drafts of the Legendarium, the mother of these sons does not appear until LQ2, i.e. Tolkien's revision of the materials after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. Originally, she was named Istarnië, but even in the first typescript it was soon changed to Nerdanel. The meaning of her original name, however, was retained in her sobriquet "the Wise". The typescript offers quite a lot of detail (some of which did not make it into the published Silmarillion) such as Nerdanel's journeys on which she met Fëanor, the amazing realism of her sculptures as well as her ventures into abstract art, and how her desire to understand minds manifested itself in company. The same text introduces Fëanor's teacher and father-in-law, Mahtan. (20)

~ The "Shibboleth of Fëanor" offers some more information about Mahtan. Mahtan loved copper above all other metals, and was therefore widely known as Urundil, "copper-lover". He is also mentioned to have red-brown hair, earning him the nickname Rusco, "fox". This rare hair colour was inherited by Maedhros, Amrod and Amras. The wording seems to suggest that Nerdanel did not share this trait, but merely passed on the genes. (20) This reading is supported by a note in the Vinyar Tengwar, according to which "Nerdanel herself had brown hair and a ruddy complexion". (22)


– Concerning Melkor

~ As has been mentioned before, in the first version of this tale Melkor has been released from Mandos before the Eldar ever reached Valinor. He is living as a servant in the house of Tulkas but grows increasingly discontent and desires the jewels that the Noldor create. As Tolkien makes a point of how generous the Noldor were, Melkor probably received his fair share of gems; but this doesn't satisfy him, and he seeks to upbraid the Noldor against the Valar by telling them deep knowledge they cannot wholly comprehend, half-truths and cunning lies. Some listen to him with "half their hearts", although Nólemë (Finwë) continually refutes the falsehoods of Melkor. Melkor does not yet take a specific interest in Fëanor. (1)

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", Melkor's imprisonment in Mandos lasted for seven "ages" (at one point, Tolkien even seems to have considered nine) but now ends after Melkor has sued for pardon. Even in this early version, Ulmo and Tulkas resent Melkor's release but cannot act against it. (4)

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'", Melkor also begins to "fan the flames of the heart of Fëanor". (4)

~ The "Quenta" implies that some of the Vanyar also listened to Melkor's teachings ("Gnomes [Noldor] were most of these. Of the Teleri there were none."). Here is the first mention of Melkor specifically using the Coming of Men to incite the Noldor to unrest (16); in earlier versions, he merely accused the Valar of being jealous and afraid of the Noldor's strength and skill, suppressing them and keeping them imprisoned. (1; 4)

~ The "Earliest Annals of Valinor" introduce the idea that Nienna's prayer aided the release of Melkor. Here, it is not Ulmo but Aulë who especially objects to the pardon (along with Tulkas). (17). In the "Later Annals of Valinor", Tulkas, Aulë and Oromë are recorded to (privately) object. (18) The "Annals of Aman" return this part to Ulmo and Tulkas. Poor Tulkas clenches his fists so tightly that his fingernails bite into his palms. (6)

~ The only change to the events surrounding Melkor's release that can be found in the final revision is that his term of imprisonment has now been reduced to three ages. Other than that, Tolkien seems to have been satisfied with this aspect of the Legendarium. (7)


– Miscellaneous

~ In the Book of Lost Tales, the invention of "alphabets and scripts" is ascribed to Aulë (although "aided by the Gnomes", i.e. Noldor). Fëanor has nothing to do with letters at all. (1) The "Lhammas" mentions writing and inscriptions several times, but does not say what kind of writing was used or who invented it. (19)

~ The "Annals of Aman" introduce the invention of letters by Rúmil (rather than Aulë) in the year Fëanor is born. In V.Y. 1250 (aged 71 Valian Years = 680 Sun Years), Fëanor comes up with his superior script. (6) The "Later Quenta Silmarillion" notes that Fëanor created his script "in his youth" (i.e., presumably earlier than recorded in the Annals of Aman). (7)

~ In the earlier versions, the Noldor create artifical gems (in fact, all gems appear to be a Noldorin creation). (2, 4, 16, 17) The "Later Annals of Valinor" no longer list this detail, but neither do they offer a different explanation for the origin of jewels. (18) The "Annals of Aman" finally introduce the idea that the Noldor discovered jewels while mining rather than creating them. The sole creator of artificial jewels is now Fëanor. (6)

~ The "Later Quenta Silmarillion" specifies that he also made light-stones and seeing stones (=Palantíri) as well as the Silmarils. (7)


Food for Thought

~ In the "Earliest 'Silmarillion'" and the "Quenta", it is said that Morgoth (sic!) has passed his imprisonment in the halls of Mandos "in gradually lightened pain" (4)/"each age in lightened pain" (16). Does that imply to you that Mandos has more in common with Angband than just mando, the shared Quenya element of their names?

~ In what ways do you think the history of Arda would have been different if Tolkien had stuck with the idea that Fëanor wasn't part of the Noldorin royal family?

~ Why do you think Tolkien came up with the Míriel—Finwë—Indis story after LotR’s completion?

~ Why is so much focus put on the fact that Indis is "in all ways unlike Míriel"?

~ Do you think that Tolkien changed his idea about Noldorin gem-making – from all jewels of the world being the result of Noldorin craftsmanship to a clear division between naturally occurring jewels plus the (purely Fëanorian) invention of artificial gems – in order to make Fëanor's ingenuity more apparent?

~ What do you think of LACE? Do you follow it in your stories or disregard it? Do you take pieces of it and ignore others? Do you look upon it as a binding legal document, a moral document, someone writing down what he observes, or something else entirely?

~ Do you think that if Finwë hadn’t remarried that “great evil might have been prevented” or was the fall of the Noldor inevitable?

~ Do you believe that Manwë might have been a wiser ruler of Arda if he had been able to grasp the concept of evil?

~ Nerdanel first appears in the LQ2 manuscript from around 1957. From 1951 to 1967, Christopher Tolkien was married to sculptor Faith Faulconbridge. Could there be a connection?


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 1, “The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor”
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 1, “The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr”
(3) The Lays of Beleriand, “The Flight of the Noldoli,” poem and commentary
(4) The Shaping of Middle-earth, “The Earliest ‘Silmarillion,’” 3
(5) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Annals of Aman,” The Third Section, Note 3 and Note 5
(6) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Annals of Aman,” The Fourth Section, §78 and its note in the commentary, §79, 80, 83, 88 and 89
(7) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The First Phase, “6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor,” §46b
(8) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “The Earliest Version of the Story of Finwë and Míriel”
(9) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Laws and Customs Among the Eldar”
(10) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” FM2
(11) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” FM2 ending notes (FM3)
(12) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “Later Versions of the Story of Finwë and Míriel,” Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Míriel
(13) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor”
(14) Morgoth’s Ring, “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”, The Second Phase, “The Earliest Version of the Story of Finwë and Míriel”
(15) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, “The Shibboleth of Fëanor,” The Names of Finwë’s Descendants, 3
(16) The Shaping of Middle-earth. "The Quenta", 4
(17) The Shaping of Middle-earth. "The Earliest Annals of Valinor", 2900.
(18) The Lost Road. "The Later Annals of Valinor", V.Y. 2700.
(19) The Lost Road. "The Lhammas", 4 & 5.
(20) Morgoth's Ring. "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", The Second Phase, "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor". §46c
(21) The Peoples of Middle-earth. Late Writings: "The Shibboleth of Fëanor". "The names of the Sons of Fëanor with the legend of the fate of Amrod".
(22) Carl F. Hostetter (ed.): Vinyar Tengwar. The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship. Volume 41, July 2000. "From The Shibboleth of Fëanor".


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it! (The questions are starting points, not the only things to discuss.)

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole.

“Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor” is due March 23.

Comments

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting is when that happened. There's nothing dealing with it in the Silm itself, so it could have happened at Cuivíenen or as the note says, on the journey. If earlier, could that have been a reason for people to travel to Valinor? And if on the journey, what marriage customs be like in Cuivíenen or among the Avari?

This is actually something I find pretty fascinating - both marriage customs in Cuiviénen and among the Avari (and, in fact, inhowfar they had a concept of marriage and how much that overlapped with what came later) and the Elves learning that their dead would return.

On that latter front, I kind of imagine Oromë telling them at Cuiviénen and the Elves being a little "...yeah. Pull the other one, it's got bells on." Because talk about a fantastical idea! And that even when they get confirmation via Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë that Valinor is real and at least SOME of the things Oromë was saying were 100% true, that bit remains quite hard to believe.

Which is why my current personal interpretation of the Finwë+Indis+Míriel situation is that it was majorly spurred by the early Elves in Valinor still not quite understanding/internalising the "dead people go to Mandos and get reembodied later!" thing. That when Míriel died, Finwë at first was all "so... you told us dead people come back, right? So will Míriel come back now? How about now?" and when the answer kept being no he kind of mentally switched back to Cuiviénen mode where, sorry there's no way I believe that remarriages weren't a thing at Cuiviénen (if marriages were at all, that is). And then all the business about Míriel never being able to be reembodied, it's still not really real to them what that actually means, it just feels like the way things have always been. *shrugs*

I must say the Indis as Fëanor's mother who died in Middle-earth story is kind of amazing! :D

[independence1776]

On that latter front, I kind of imagine Oromë telling them at Cuiviénen and the Elves being a little "...yeah. Pull the other one, it's got bells on." Because talk about a fantastical idea! And that even when they get confirmation via Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë that Valinor is real and at least SOME of the things Oromë was saying were 100% true, that bit remains quite hard to believe.

This makes complete sense to me. Out of all the things he said, that would be one I'd find completely unbelievable unless I saw proof of it. (I'm now wondering how many spouses/children/relations were reembodied shortly after the Eldar reached Valinor and how that affected things.)

sorry there's no way I believe that remarriages weren't a thing at Cuiviénen

I absolutely believe they were a thing, and possibly polyamory also. There's nothing that says Elves stuck to the mate-for-life thing without the influence of the Valar.

I like your interpretation of the Finwë-Míriel-Indis situation. Mine's a bit different-- I'm a bit like Míriel in that I get even more stubborn if someone tries to get me to do something I'm unsure of or not yet ready for-- so Cuivíenen behavior doesn't play much of a part. (But I'm also an active Finwë/Míriel/Indis shipper, so I think events could have gone better if things had been changed slightly.)

I must say the Indis as Fëanor's mother who died in Middle-earth story is kind of amazing!

It really, really is! (And has sent my mind off on tangents-- such as Fingolfin and Finarfin and their sisters being born after Finwë reaches Valinor. Though how that would change the rest of the Silm, I'm not sure, though it depends on how jealous Fëanor is that he has to share his father. So possibly not much at all.)

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

I like your interpretation of the Finwë-Míriel-Indis situation. Mine's a bit different-- I'm a bit like Míriel in that I get even more stubborn if someone tries to get me to do something I'm unsure of or not yet ready for-- so Cuivíenen behavior doesn't play much of a part. (But I'm also an active Finwë/Míriel/Indis shipper, so I think events could have gone better if things had been changed slightly.)

Hahaha, I admit I also ship them but didn't want to get into that in the first post because it takes the theory further and further away from canon. But! I kind of tie Míriel's behaviour into Cuiviénen stuff as well? In that... so some of the elves at Cuiviénen were developing their own theories about where they come from and what happens to them when they die, and Míriel was one of them. And Míriel is stubborn, and clings to her ideas, and does not deal with change well. In fact, she'd been having a pretty hard time in Valinor in general because she had a lot of trouble adjusting, and then there was that thing where Indis left with Ingwë to go live on Taniquetil which she sort of interpreted as Indis rejecting her and Finwë/choosing her brother over them, and the whole thing where the Valar in general/Vairë in particular mean Míriel has gone from inventor/teacher to student and that's not a role she really likes very much... long story short is that Míriel was already pretty exhausted and struggling and Fëanor's birth basically tipped the scales. And then she dies, and I think some tiny part of her was still enamoured with the afterlife she'd envisioned back then (not 100% sure what it is, tbh) and was hoping for that - but nope, Halls of Mandos it is and Námo going "okay so you need to recover your strength so you can come back to life" and Míriel is just NO I HAVE HAD IT THIS WAS NOT THE AFTERLIFE I SIGNED UP FOR I QUIT.

(I actually feel kind of sorry for Námo in this situation, who has NO idea how to deal with this. XD)

ETA: Oh yeah and now I have a plot bunny percolating through my brain wherein it is Míriel who dies in Middle-earth and is reembodied later in Valinor and Fëanor is really Not Sure about this strange woman and suddenly all these half-siblings he needs to share his father with, and Indis stays unmarried... of course my focus is really weird in that I've been thinking about Vanyar government a lot recently and Indis not going to Tirion would cause some interesting shifts in that, psshh who cares about Fëanor and Fingolfin and co I want to know how Indis sticking around would affect the centralised-government vs autonomous community tensions that arise among the Vanyar! ;)

[independence1776]

Hahaha, I admit I also ship them but didn't want to get into that in the first post because it takes the theory further and further away from canon

Yeah, it rather does! And yet another thing that makes Tolkien spin in his grave given he wrote LACE to firmly say no to such a situation. (But I couldn't resist a happy AU… They deserve it.)

Your Míriel ideas: ooh, I like them. I definitely agree with the Elves at Cuivíenen coming up with their own ideas (it fits in with the whole "Beleriand is a rumor and Valinor a name" thing; no reason why what information Oromë gave them wouldn't be either assimilated or tossed aside for inplausibility with what beliefs they already have). I tend to think Míriel was born in Valinor, though it's possibily unlikely.

I don't think Námo (or the rest of the Valar, for that matter) has much of an idea about how to deal with Elves. They've anticipated them for who knows how long and probably had their own ideas of what the Children would be like that didn't match up to reality. And trying to wrap their minds around that and then suddenly realizing that bad things can still happen in Valinor-- they're completely out of their depth, prone to reacting the wrong way simply because they don't know what they're doing (and don't realize that), and that they're a different species/order of being means they think about things and react differently and that hasn't quite sunk in.

That's an interesting bunny!

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Weeell LaCE I can't say much on in detail because I've never actually properly read it (whyyyyy is Morgoth's Ring out of stock everywhere and the used copies start at £50 this is not fair) but from the bits and pieces I have heard I am totally happy to consign that to my mental wastebin! :D

I tend to think Míriel was born in Valinor, though it's possibily unlikely.

Honestly, what canonical evidence there is seems to point in this direction - the fact that Míriel means "jewel-daughter" and jewels only became associated with the Noldor (or, really, a thing) in Valinor, and the fact that someone who gets upset about the þ>s shift probably didn't experience much language change before. However, I have developed a tendency of making minor female characters quite old as an easy way to give more scope to their lives than "married, had kid(s), died" - e.g. my headcanon Nimloth is probably around the same age of Fëanor - and wanted to have Indis/Míriel at Cuiviénen. >> It works for her plotline for me, because her inability to cope with change really becomes a major part of her character arc. It's kind of sad - I suspect my Míriel would've had a much happier life if she'd become Avari (and it was something she seriously considered), but she went to Valinor for FInwë and Indis. :( :(

I don't think Námo (or the rest of the Valar, for that matter) has much of an idea about how to deal with Elves. They've anticipated them for who knows how long and probably had their own ideas of what the Children would be like that didn't match up to reality. And trying to wrap their minds around that and then suddenly realizing that bad things can still happen in Valinor-- they're completely out of their depth, prone to reacting the wrong way simply because they don't know what they're doing (and don't realize that), and that they're a different species/order of being means they think about things and react differently and that hasn't quite sunk in.

This is TOTALLY my reading of the Valar. They are at heart benevolent beings who want what is best for the Elves - I've been reading Lost Tales 1 and there you get a description of how ecstatic most of the Valar are when the Elves show up and how they run around telling each other and celebrate to the point of letting Melkor out early (Manwë you are adorable when you are happy but but but NO) - but they just have NO IDEA how they work. And because they're so powerful, all their well-intentioned mistakes end up having major effects. I mean, if you squint at the Silmarillion it's basically the Valar making mistakes, trying to learn from them and then making NEW mistakes, on and on.

"Okay RIGHT the 'let the Noldor do what they want' plan didn't work so well, let's go help them out... oh shit we sank the continent. Okay, let's at least give the Men a nice island of their own, NOT bring them to Valinor because last time that didn't work out so well... oh shit they're really angry at us they're coming with a fleet, maybe Ilúvatar can handle this so- NO NO WE SAID WE *DIDN'T* WANT YOU TO SINK THE CONTINENT. Oh look Sauron is making trouble again let's... just... send some Maiar. With a powercap."

And fully agreed on issues with Elves being a different species - I suspect that e.g. the Ainur have major issues understanding Elven attitudes towards death, for instance, because they just have no concept of a body as something that's an intrinsic part of you. And I honestly wonder how much of the "no divorce" stuff comes from misconceptions about how Elvish souls behave vs how Ainur spirits behave and the like, but that may be because my preferred happily-ever-after Finwë/Indis/Míriel is Námo going "...riiight I guess we got that bit wrong, sorry about that" and them all getting reembodied and living together. >> shush I know it's flagrantly unlikely I just hate the no divorce stuff A LOT.

[independence1776]

I don't know! My local bookstores only care Unfinished Tales and HoME 1-3, though I've occassionally seen Shaping and a couple of the LotR volumes. The later ones may as well not even exist. :( (Morgoth's Ring is my favorite because of the "Myths Transformed" essays, so I hope you're able to get your hands on it someday. Maybe the library has it?)

However, I have developed a tendency of making minor female characters quite old as an easy way to give more scope to their lives than "married, had kid(s), died"

That's a perfectly valid way and reason to do things!

And because they're so powerful, all their well-intentioned mistakes end up having major effects. I mean, if you squint at the Silmarillion it's basically the Valar making mistakes, trying to learn from them and then making NEW mistakes, on and on.

Yes. I do tend to be less forgiving of them than you, though. It doesn't seem that they learned quite the right lessons, especially at first. Númenor is a good example; I'm not quite sure why they thought Men would be content with living almost-but-not-quite in paradise knowing that the "true" version is just over the horizon. (I also don't know what to think of the whole Akallabêth thing, because in one version (I don't know which), they sink it and in the Silm, Ilúvatar does.) But yeah, they did learn eventually-- Maiar with a powercap! :D

I suspect that e.g. the Ainur have major issues understanding Elven attitudes towards death, for instance, because they just have no concept of a body as something that's an intrinsic part of you. And I honestly wonder how much of the "no divorce" stuff comes from misconceptions about how Elvish souls behave vs how Ainur spirits behave and the like

That's pretty much what I think, too. There are going to be some areas where the two peoples just aren't going to come to any sort of true understanding. They may intellectually know it, but they're never going to live it.

my preferred happily-ever-after Finwë/Indis/Míriel is Námo going "...riiight I guess we got that bit wrong, sorry about that" and them all getting reembodied and living together.

That's awesome! (I've been less-than-seriously trying to fix it in my head apart from my normal AU, and it's basically Manwë and Námo getting sick of the revolving door because all three of the Elves realize that keeping one trapped for eternity isn't fair to anyone, so they take turns, and saying, "Fine! We're fed up with this! Go…Just go.") My usual AU is a "we're secretly together, Míriel's pregnent, revelation of their relationship after Fëanor's birth, the three of them get married and live happily ever after" because having Indis around meant Míriel's pregnancy and recovery from post-partum depression was easier because she had a better support structure (and the relationship's revelation gave her something to focus on and put her stubbornness to good use). Which also means Fëanor will be far less jealous of his brothers because his mother is a) alive and b) he has a good example of how someone is able to love more than one person without being jealous.

[kazaera.livejournal.com]

Yeeaah. I got my hands on V and XII, quite lucky I now realise! so at least I have the Shibboleth and the Etymologies. My local bookstore also carries II, III, VI and IX, but I don't think there's anything really interesting to me in any of those right now? I really want Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. I managed to order a copy of WotJ, although it'll take a few weeks to get here, but Morgoth's Ring really doesn't seem available. :/

*nods* I definitely view the Valar more positively than most people, I think. In a bizarre way, it's Ingwë's fault - I used to be very :/ on them, but then I fell in love with him and now I sort of view the whole legendarium through Ingwë's eyes. And of course he's a great fan of the Valar - not blind to their mistakes, but he honestly believes that they're really trying their best and that the Elves are far better off with their intervention + Arda is a much better place with them than it'd be without them. And of course at the end of the day he's going to be eternally grateful to them for rescuing his people from Morgoth's depredations at Cuiviénen. And all that seeps out and affects my own opinions and now I totally love the Valar. ??? (Agreed on Akallabeth, though. That one is tricky to work out if it's the Valar who destroy Númenor.)

That's pretty much what I think, too. There are going to be some areas where the two peoples just aren't going to come to any sort of true understanding. They may intellectually know it, but they're never going to live it.

I sometimes think/hope that the main wisdom the Valar gain in the end is not so much a better understanding of the Elves but a knowledge of these limits, that there are things they CANNOT understand, and a willingness to consult others. I... god, I don't remember where this was at all /o\ but I remember reading about some debate of the Valar where there was a list of the attendees and I noticed Ingwë was on there - only non-Ainu and possibly only non-Vala, IIRC? Which quite surprised me, but *might* (if said event was relatively late + my memory isn't letting me down) indicate that the Valar have decided a token Elf who can go "er, guys? you're overlooking something here" if appropriate might be a good idea.

That's awesome! (I've been less-than-seriously trying to fix it in my head apart from my normal AU, and it's basically Manwë and Námo getting sick of the revolving door because all three of the Elves realize that keeping one trapped for eternity isn't fair to anyone, so they take turns, and saying, "Fine! We're fed up with this! Go…Just go.") My usual AU is a "we're secretly together, Míriel's pregnent, revelation of their relationship after Fëanor's birth, the three of them get married and live happily ever after" because having Indis around meant Míriel's pregnancy and recovery from post-partum depression was easier because she had a better support structure (and the relationship's revelation gave her something to focus on and put her stubbornness to good use). Which also means Fëanor will be far less jealous of his brothers because his mother is a) alive and b) he has a good example of how someone is able to love more than one person without being jealous.

I lol at your 'revolving door' thing because in my headcanon, Indis fights in the War of Wrath and dies there (:() and I have considered that she might go "okay, now I'll stay here forever and Finwë can be reembodied! :D" and how Námo would react to that (probably something along the lines of 'for fuck's sake, can none of you just STAY ALIVE?!') except that whenever I seriously go down this line of thought Indis just kind of looks at me and goes I love Finwë and Míriel and all but I have things to do, okay?

Also, oooh yes @ that happy AU. In a strange way this is very very nearly how it went in my 'verse, except that Indis moved to Taniquetil with Ingwë... because he was doing really terribly in Tirion and Indis really didn't trust him to take care of himself if she stayed (my Ingwë is the sort of extremely selfless that's almost a form of selfishness in itself, if you know what I mean)... wait, I just realised that apparently Míriel's death and all its MANY consequences are technically Ingwë's fault in my verse. /o\ Oh man.

[independence1776]

Ah, geez. I hope you're able to find a copy of it somehow!

In a bizarre way, it's Ingwë's fault - I used to be very :/ on them, but then I fell in love with him and now I sort of view the whole legendarium through Ingwë's eyes.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I didn't used to care that much about Finwë, Míriel, or Indis until I started writing them, and now I love them.

I sometimes think/hope that the main wisdom the Valar gain in the end is not so much a better understanding of the Elves but a knowledge of these limits, that there are things they CANNOT understand, and a willingness to consult others.

All of that and a willingness to step back and let things play out for a while without intervention first, because they learned that they just might make things worse. Though I do hope that they learn more about the Elves just by living with them for thousands of years.

If you find the passage, I'd be interested to read that! (Though I also think a token Elf isn't exactly enough of representation for things that affect the Eldar.)

Indis fights in the War of Wrath and dies there (:()

:( Makes sense, but ouch.

I linked to it in the rec post if you want to read it. (It spawned a series; Elleth's my co-writer, though we haven't gotten as far as other children yet. It's a very sporadic update thing.)

It absolutely makes sense from everything you've said that Ingwë wouldn't do well in Tirion. But that's a rather depressing realization…

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

That when Míriel died, Finwë at first was all "so... you told us dead people come back, right? So will Míriel come back now? How about now?" and when the answer kept being no he kind of mentally switched back to Cuiviénen mode

This makes so much sense!

Personally, I would love to see a fic where Indis, even if she's not literally Finwe's first wife, is someone who knew him in Middle-earth and was re-embodied...