SWG Re-read - Opinions wanted!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Hi all! Chapter-wise, we’re nearly a third of the way through The Silmarillion and we have a few questions we’d like your opinions on. Also, if there’s anything else about the reread you want to tell us (how we’re doing, things we could do better, things we’re doing well, etc.), please do so!

[Poll #1960833]

Thank you for taking the time to help us. See you next chapter!

Comments

[samtyr.livejournal.com]

I have no recs to make just yet, but I adore following rec links. :)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I've been lazy at posting recs. Every week I intend to post more and there are also chapters I am looking forward to when I will post more recs.

Not a fan of the Alternate Versions section

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I actually wanted a re-read of The Silmarillion. I had hoped we could go over it carefully--I love the language, among other things. The Silmarillion texts feel to me like they are getting short shrift with this method and I find a lot the peripheral discussion engendered by that focus on HoMe texts (my comments included!) to be both too general and apocryphal (I am a perpetrator of this sort--"I seem to recall reading somewhere that ...") and too specific (for example obscure cites with weird names--"In the Book of Lost Tales chapter one ‘That is the voice of Tombo, the Gong of the Children, which stands outside the Hall of Play Regained...added Lindo..." Oh, just shoot me now and put me out of my misery!)

HoMe is necessarily going to come up, the occasional reference is welcome in a lively discussion of the text we are supposed to be focusing on. But a number of people have not read those HoMe volumes (I have more than once and I cannot frigging remember all those alternative names and/or I have parts which I think enhance The Silmarillion text and others which are really annoying and distracting.)

I would like to see a poll on which volumes of HoMe people have actually read.

Re: Not a fan of the Alternate Versions section

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

I'd go with you on this; I was initially thinking of joining in, but I have little interest in HoMe. I choose to ignore it save in a very few cases. (I find Atrabeth interesting) and wanted to read a more in-depth fall of Gondolin, which is in BOLT II) But while I have all the books, I rarely read any save Morgoth's Ring, and then only bits of it. The Silmarillion has everything I want to build my own ideas and 'verse on.

If this was Silm-focussed, I would participate, but on the other hand, I a not going to tell people what they should or should not discuss, so I just don't join in.

Edit. I didn't even know there was a recc's section, but I am all for recc's!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

It's actually meant to be Silm-focused, and I wasn't even aware that our list of alternate versions (which was meant to be a service for people like ourselves, who only read those bits of the HoME that touched our specific interests, so they'd know roughly what's in there without having to slog through all of it themselves) might take that focus away from the Silm and more towards HoME. For what it's worth, please feel free to join in with anything you'd like to discuss that's specifically Silmarillion? There's no need to stick either to our questions (which, I hope, have touched upon the Silmarillion, meta, HoME and random more or less equally) or to the Alternative Versions section (whether it remains part of the parcel or not). Everyone can start their own comment thread, so there's no need to either tell anyone what to discuss (just ignore the bits you don't care for) or to stay away if you'd really love to discuss some aspect of the Silmarillion chapter in question.

Out of curiosity: You honestly didn't notice the Fanworks rec posts that Indy has been putting up separately after each fortnight's chapter Discussion post? If that's the case for others, too, that might explain the lack of responses!

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

You honestly didn't notice the Fanworks rec posts that Indy has been putting up separately after each fortnight's chapter Discussion post?

I didn't see it, no. I would have recc-d something otherwise, (If I knew stories that were pertinent) even if I didn't join with the chapter discussions. I do enjoy recc-ing!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

OK! We'll have to find a way of making them more noticeable then, I guess!

[zdenka]

For me, I've been finding the Alternate Versions section more interesting when I haven't read those particular volumes of HoMe. Because then I can learn things that I don't know or haven't encountered before or saw in a fanfic once but didn't know came from (some version of) canon. So for me at least, having read all of HoMe is not prerequisite to finding that section useful.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

That was the point of that section - providing an overview for people who may not have read the entire HoME (or didn't commit it all to memory, at least ;)) so they know what else is there. We never wanted to force everyone to read up on all of it! Glad to hear that it's working for you.

[silver-trails.livejournal.com]

I'm not even participating. I could not resist saying this when you mentioned the Home books: I have read them all, and love them and like to quote them. Not relevant to the discussion, I know. I don't participate in re-reads. =)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting point. I wasn't aware that the existence of the Alternate Versions sections might discourage people from discussing the language or any other aspects of the Silmarillion proper! Naturally, that was not our intention at all. We are also aware that many people haven't read (all of) the HoME or don't even have access to (all of) these books. (Both Indy and I have so far read only those parts of the HoME that were relevant to our specific interests! ;)) In fact, part of the purpose of the Alternate Versions sections was to provide an overview of things that other people might not have read, in order to spare them from having to struggle through all of these different/earlier versions themselves. HoME, the Good Parts Version, so to say. Thank you for letting us know that this doesn't seem to work at all!

Do you have any suggestions how we could encourage discussion about the aspects that you'd like to talk about more? Naturally, you're extremely welcome to start that sort of discussion in a comment yourself, but as many people don't seem to read or respond to other people's comments, maybe we can provide a little push in the main post. I just don't have any ideas how to do that, right now. >_>

Indy and I have actually talked about such a poll, too! Not as part of this project (which after all isn't meant to be primarily about HoME ;)) - but out of sheer curiosity.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Naturally, you're extremely welcome to start that sort of discussion in a comment yourself, but as many people don't seem to read or respond to other people's comments, maybe we can provide a little push in the main post. I just don't have any ideas how to do that, right now. >_>

That was, of course, was the first thing I thought about after I posted that comment. That instead of whining, the more productive approach is to raise the points I'd like to discuss instead of complaining after the fact. I have a tendency in these discussions so far to be more reactive to the comments than raising the things that interest me in the texts themselves. I haven't even added my own favorite passages for the most part, although it had occurred to me to do so a few times.

I could try that, and will, but as you say people tend to respond to a few select items only. But one will never know if one doesn't try. I guess I would perhaps modify my stance on HoMe as part of the prompted discussion, to maybe wishing it would a little less prominent. I also thought about how irresistible it is to refer to those earlier versions (in my case, for example, in my character bios).

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

I've read them all, more than once, some in one session, some just chapter by chapter or research phase I went through... many many years ago before the kids became far more mobile. ;c) Once they started to walk.... you get the idea ;)

[dreamflower]

I like the rec posts, following some of the links. But I think I only posted one so far.

[zdenka]

My reaction to the Fanworks rec post so far has been a combination of "I don't have anything to post, but I'll gladly read other people's links," "There are works which span multiple chapters or are gapfillers that don't fit in neatly, so I don't know where I would put them," and "We haven't gotten up to the chapters where the most fanworks are." By far the majority of Silm fanfic/art that I'm familiar with is set after the Noldor return to Beleriand, and we just haven't gotten there yet. I'm guessing the fanworks post will see much more use later on. The one thing I have recced so far (for the Ainulindale/Valaquenta chapters) starts with the creation of Arda but is an ongoing work which may eventually cover the entire Silmarillion, so I'm not sure it really fits into the chapter structure either. Though I'm assuming the mods don't mind a little messiness in categorization, as long as a work has significant content which relates to that particular chapter.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the mods, but Indy and I definitely don't mind if a fanwork can't be clearly assigned to any one chapter and you just pick one that works for you somehow (because it provides the starting point, or because an important part of the work relates to that chapter, or whatever). :) It often is hard to clearly categorise fanworks!

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

What is it what you need to know from us mods? How people can use the community? At the profile (http://silwritersguild.livejournal.com/profile) you can read the rules and guidelines for this group and the site. As long if it is Silmarillion related, proper warnings are used and the promotion of other groups are respected people can go ahead and rec whatever they like. And no, we do not moderate tags being used on this group. Just make sure they make sense, but that's the librarian inside me piping up.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it actually is a question that the mods need to settle. :) I just wanted to clarify that Indy and I are, while in charge of this project, no mods here. Sorry about the confusion!

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

No prob hon, holler when we do need to pipe up or help ect. You girls are doing a fab job and I can only encourage that people share the Silmarillion love during these fab re-reads!!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Will do! And awwww, thank you. <3

[zdenka]

Sorry, apparently I misspoke -- my brain went "people in charge of a fannish project" = "mods." Though I was thinking "discussion moderators" rather than "comm moderators." Is there a better shorthand for how to refer to you and Indy in the context of this project?

[independence1776]

Reread mods? Reread leaders? Discussion leaders?

I honestly don't know!

[hhimring]

Fanwork recs: It often really is difficult to fit them neatly to the chapters. Also, SSPs tend to be the least work, but I can't help getting embarrassed about those when there are so few recs altogether.

"Food for thought": I like those sections. They do provide food for thought, even when they don't inspire comment or fic.

"Alternate versions": Most of us have absorbed them to some extent, through fan fic or electronic resources, if not directly from HoME. I find the section helpful--nobody forces people to actually discuss it. Perhaps the Food for Thought section has focussed a little more on these versions than necessary, although I personally didn't mind.

Oh, and I like the Favourite Quotes section, just wanted to mention that!

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Right. The only fanwork rec I have made so far was an SSP, and it made me feel so attention-seeking that I doubt I will post more. Even if I have some fics that basically "remix" certain chapters.

And I think the "alternate versions" are interesting for very similar reasons: they help me remember what is Silm-canon, what is pure fanon, and what is based on something more obscure. Also, I imagine they will be a great resource in the future.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Glad the Alternate Versions section work that way for you - that was (part of) the point, initially! :)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

It really is. Do you think it would help if we make it clearer that fanworks don't have to fit neatly into one chapter, as long as they somehow have to do with the chapter in questions (because that's the time when they start/end, or because a particularly important chunk of the fanwork takes place during that chapter, or even because it's a gapfiller that happens between this chapter and the previous or next)?
I hear you on the SSPs. I feel embarrassed whenever I do one of those, too. >_>

The purpose of the Alternate Versions section actually was to provide people with a handy overview of stuff from the HoME so they know (roughly) what else is there, without forcing anyone to read all those books themselves (or discussing their contents if they don't want to). Doesn't seem to work for everyone, though. Thank you for pointing out the connection between our Food for Thought questions and the perceived focus on HoME - I guess we'll have to pay better attention to that.

Glad you like the Favourite Quotes! :)

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

(*crawling from under a big rock*)

Alternate versions: considering that the Silm is a construct that CT made out of all the different versions, I don't think they can be left out. Maybe focus on the main bigger differences between the published Silm and HoMe?

Food for Thought: I like it. It helps to kick off and organize the discussion.

Recs: I haven't recced anything (shame on me) but I'll agree with Lignota about the reasons why not. I think it's useful and interesting to be reminded of / discover stories.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Maybe focus on the main bigger differences between the published Silm and HoMe?

We can try that, though of course it's hard to draw the line between "main difference" and "ignore this"! So far, we've been trying to stuff everything in (or as much as possible, anyway) so people wouldn't accuse us of hushing up some detail that we might have found insignificant but someone else finds really important. ;) With the last chapter, due to the wealth of changes and developments, that was really hard - which is why we posed the question.

Good to know that the rec posts are appreciated even if there isn't always a lot going on there (for various reasons)! :)

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

As it's my first read through, the alternate versions part is mostly confusing to me. I did like the information on different ideas about how female Dwarves came to be, though.

I am not doing much with the fanworks post because I feel like those would mostly be better enjoyed if I was more familiar with the lore.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Sorry if we're confusing you! For what it's worth, you don't have to feel obliged to read through all of it. It's just meant to provide a (hopefully) handy list of obscure facts and general changes and developments so people feel they have a broad idea of what's going on in the HoME. But it isn't required reading! If you're only just getting to terms with the Silmarillion proper and its many names and characters, reading all those alternative versions must be rather overwhelming. Feel free to skip it if you want!

Possibly! Though some people have come to the fandom without having read the Silmarillion first, purely through consuming fanfic. While that may not work for everyone, it goes to show that you don't have to be 100% familiar with the lore to enjoy fanfic based on it. ;)

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's fine. I am just skipping it if it's confusing me. Like I said, the parts about various Dwarf origin ideas were great :)

I could likely enjoy the fanfic, but I kind of want to form my own ideas about things before I start imprinting fanon. As I've commented before, now that I am actually reading the Silmarillion itself I'm finding that it's stories are pretty different from the summaries I've read and what I've seen fans claim about it. I should have read it myself long ago, but based on what I'd heard about it I thought I would dislike it and that it would interfere with my love for LOTR. That has not been the case however. Still, I want to finish and sort through my own thoughts on it before I dive in fanfic.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a sensible approach! :)