SWG Re-Read - "Of the Flight of the Noldor" Discussion Post

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Chapter 8 – Of the Flight of the Noldor


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Summary

After the Darkening, the Valar try to get the situation under control and convene in the Ring of Doom. Yavanna attempts to revive the Trees but finds that they are dead. She declares that she can rekindle the Trees with the light of the Silmarils, if Fëanor gives them to her before the roots decay. Fëanor does not answer at once, and when he speaks, he refuses Yavanna's request, arguing that the destruction of his greatest creation would destroy him as well. He feels that he is surrounded by enemies and announces that he will not freely surrender the Silmarils, but if the Valar take them by force, he will know that Melkor truly is like them. Mandos accepts Fëanor's decision and Nienna departs to mourn the Trees and with her tears clean away the filth of Ungoliant.

Before any further decisions can be made, messengers arrive from Formenos. They tell the Valar that Melkor attacked Fëanor's stronghold, killed Finwë and stole the Silmarils. Fëanor curses Melkor, naming him Morgoth ("Dark Enemy"), and also curses the summons of Manwë before he flees from the Ring of Doom.

Meanwhile, Morgoth and Ungoliant flee to Middle-earth. Morgoth cannot escape Ungoliant yet, but he hopes to be able to do that once he has reached the ruins of Angband. Ungoliant guesses his intentions and stops him, demanding her payment. Morgoth grudgingly gives up all the jewels he has stolen from Formenos, one by one, except for the Silmarils which he holds in his right hand although they burn his flesh. When Ungoliant demands them as well, Morgoth refuses, so Ungoliant wraps him in a web to strangle him. Morgoth cries out so loud that the earth shakes. His Balrogs hear him, arise from hiding and save their master. Ungoliant escapes into Nan Dungortheb, where in time she breeds with other spider-creatures.

Morgoth now returns to Angband with all the servants he can find. He repairs his old stronghold and raises up the mountain peaks of Thangorodrim. He begins to breed armies, names himself King of the World and sets the Silmarils into his iron crown.

In Valinor, the Valar sit in darkness in the Ring of Doom while the Maiar and Vanyar mourn beside them. The Noldor have returned to Tirion. Suddenly, Fëanor enters the city in spite of his exile, and calls all the Noldor to the high court of the king. He makes a great speech, inciting most of the Noldor to rebellion and flight. At last he and his sons swear an unbreakable oath by the name of Ilúvatar, Manwë and Varda that they will bring vengeance and death onto any being that attempts to keep the Silmarils from them. At this point, Fingolfin and Turgon protest, causing a near-violent argument. Finarfin and Orodreth speak out more softly, trying to calm the Noldor. Most of the other descendants of Finwë openly or secretly agree with Fëanor's conclusion that Valinor is no longer their home and that they should return to Middle-earth to make their fortune there. In the end, the Noldor hurriedly prepare to go. As there is no agreement among them who of Finwë's sons should be their new leader, they leave in two hosts, the first and smaller one led by Fëanor and the second, larger one led by Fingolfin and Finarfin who do not want to go but do not want to leave their people alone, either. Only ten percent of the Noldor remain in Valinor for a variety of reasons. A messenger comes from Manwë to counsel the Noldor not to follow Fëanor, and to pronounce Fëanor exiled from Valinor because of his oath. Fëanor laughs and refutes the herald, who bows and leaves.

The Noldor continue their exodus until they reach the sea. Fëanor wants to persuade the Teleri to join his rebellion, both to further hurt the Valar and because the Noldor need the Telerin ships to reach Middle-earth; but Olwë refuses. Therefore Fëanor and his host try to take the ships by force. The Teleri offer resistance until the Noldor draw their swords. The host of Fingolfin, arriving when the battle is already in full swing, assume that their kinsfolk have been waylaid by the Teleri and join in the slaughter. In the end, the Noldor beat back the Teleri and depart on the swan-ships. Ossë is not permitted to interfere because the Valar (or their servants) must not keep the Noldor back, but the sea itself arises in a storm that sinks many of the ships. Most Noldor, however, survive and make their way northwards, some by land and some by sea. As they reach the borders of Araman, they encounter a messenger – possibly Mandos himself – who condemns them for the bloodbath at Alqualondë and pronounces the Prophecy of the North. Some are daunted, but only Finarfin and some of his people – none of his children – forsake the flight and return to Tirion, where they ask and receive the Valar's pardon.

When the Noldor reach the cold and bitter North, they are forced to pause and consider their further course. Fëanor grows tired of the debate and the allegations against him, so he secretly mans the ships with his sons and followers. Having reached Losgar in Middle-earth, Fëanor orders that the ships be burned. Only Maedhros stands aside because of his friendship with Fingon.

The Noldor in Araman see the distant flames and know that they are betrayed, but instead of returning to Valinor as Fëanor expected, Fingolfin and his followers decide to brave the drift-ice of the Helcaraxë. These straits were thought to be impassable for any but the Valar (and Ungoliant), but the Noldor succeed in crossing them – though not without bitter losses.



Our Favourite Quotes

~ "Then many voices were lifted in lamentation; and it seemed to those that mourned that they had drained to the dregs the cup of woe that Melkor had filled for them. But it was not so."

~ "But Aulë the Maker said, 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'"

~ "'It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.' - 'Not the first,' said Mandos […].

~ "Then Fëanor rose, and lifting his hand before Manwë he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only his was known the Eldar ever after."

~ "Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?"

~ "The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder. Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard."

~ "Dark now fell the shadow on Beleriand, as is told hereafter; but in Angband Morgoth forged for himself a great crown of iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain. That crown he never took from his head, though its weight became a deadly weariness."

~ "Nonetheless his majesty as one of the Valar long remained, though turned to terror, and before his face all save the mightiest sank into a dark pit of fear."

~ "'Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea?'"

~ "'Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to Middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Or shall we return to our home? In Cuiviénen sweet ran the waters under uncolouded stars, and white lands lay about, where a free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in our folly forsook them. Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!'"

~ "'Fair shall the end be,' [Fëanor] cried, 'though long and hard shall be the road! Say farewell to bondage! But say farewell also to ease! Say farewell to the weak! Say farewell to your treasures! More still shall we make. Journey light: but bring with you your swords! For we will go further than Oromë, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit.'"

~ "For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end."

~ "No oaths [Galadriel] swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to tule there a realm at her own will."

~ "'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest, but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart.'"

~ "In Aman we have come throught bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy; or freedom, at the least."

~"'Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest.'"

~"But Olwë answered: 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly.'"

~"But the Teleri withstood [Fëanor], and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and upon the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate. Thrice the people of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar."

~ "'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by tresaon of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be forever.'

~"'For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment andby grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'"

~"'We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.'"

~ "For between the land of Aman that in the north curved eastward, and the east-shores of Endor (which is Middle-earth) that bore westward, there was a narrow strait, through which the chill waters of the Encircling Sea and the waves of Belegaer flowed together, and there were vast fogs and mists of deathly cold, and the sea-streams were filled with clashing hills of ice and the grinding of ice deep-sunken."

~ "Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'"

~ "And [Fingolfin] and his host wandered long in misery, but their valour and endurance grew with hardship; for they were a mighty people, the elder children undying of Eru Ilúvatar, but new-come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of Earth. The fire of their hearts was young, and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxë and the cruel hills of ice."



Earlier Versions

~ After the vastly different account of the Darkening offered by the Book of Lost Tales, it comes as no surprise that the Flight of the Noldor also differs greatly from the final version. To begin with, quite some time passes between Melkor's theft of the Silmarils and his attack on the Trees. While Melkor encounters and recruits Móru (Ungoliant), Fëanor attempts (but fails) to recreate the Silmarils and broods by his father's grave until in his grief he no longer wants to stay in Valinor. He convinces some of the Noldor to ask Manwë that the Noldor be brought back to Middle-earth. Manwë straight out forbids such talk, then tries to win the Noldor's hearts back by telling them many secrets, including about the Coming of Men. Fëanor then jumps to the conclusion that the Noldor are to be kept in Valinor so that Men may govern the world. The fire of Fëanor's rebellion is then fanned by the Darkening of Valinor. (2)

~ In the same version, the Fëanorian oath is prominently absent. Fëanor talks the Noldor into leaving Valinor and wins a great following even though he has no claim to authority over them, and even though Nolemë (Finwë) counsels his people against leaving. As Nolemë does not want to leave his people, he joins in the exodus against his own conviction. The Noldor leave as one host. (3)

~ In the very first draft, Tolkien did not envision the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Most of the Solosimpi (coast-dwelling Teleri) are in fact hunting with the Valar, and of those who are still by the coast, the Noldor can convince many to join their flight. These help to steal the swan-ships from Alqualondë. Tolkien seems to have realised that this version was too harmless, struck it out and on separate sheets wrote "The Kinslaughter (Battle of Kópas Alqualunten)" to be included in the original storyline. In this amendation, the Noldor can still convince some Solosimpi to support them (though only "a few that might be counted on two hands"), but the rest of the coast-dwellers are no longer off hunting but present when the Noldor man the ships. When they realise the ongoing theft, they grow angry, try to block the arch of the harbour and threaten the Noldor on the ships with rocks and bows if they do not return. Taking this threat extremely seriously, all Noldor who are still on shore assault the Teleri and cast them into the sea or cut them down, presumably to protect their women and children (who are on the ships). There is no Prophecy of the North. (3)

~ The Book of Lost Tales explicitly states that it is the food and drink of Valinor that enables the Noldor to cross the Helcaraxë and that keeps them free from weariness and sickness. As they do not take any of the "blessed food of the Gods and their rich drink" along, the "evils of the world" can assail them in Middle-earth. (3)

~ In this early version, the Noldor attempt to use the ships to come to Middle-earth, but after one ship sinks due to perilous eddies and icebergs, they abandon the idea and camp on the shore for a while. Murmuring arises against Fëanor, but then winter comes and the sea freezes over so that the currents can no longer move the drift-ice about. Seeing this, the Noldor leave the Telerin ships and cross the Helcaraxë. (3)

~ The unfinished alliterative poem "The Flight of the Noldoli from Valinor" introduces the Fëanorian oath, sworn by Fëanor and his sons. Fëanor has become a son of Finn, the king, who has been slain. One draft of the poem also mentions Fingolfin and his son Finweg (later Fingon). (4) This poem also features the priceless image of Fëanor whirling his torches in his hands while he makes his speech in Túna, a detail absent from the retelling of the speech and oath given in the "Lay of Leithian" or indeed any other version of the story. (4; 5)

~ "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" introduces many new themes. One is the Thieves' Quarrel between Morgoth and Ungoliant, of Ungoliant's attempt to strangle Morgoth, and of Morgoth's rescue by Balrogs and Orcs. (6)

~ Another new idea introduced in "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" is the Valar's passivity after the death of the Trees. Fëanor, now banished from Tûn (Tirion), rebels against his banishment and summons the Noldor to Tûn. There is no mention of an oath, only of a "violent speech". It is now stated that Fingolfin and Finweg (Fingon) "retain command over a half of the people of the Noldoli", who nonetheless seem to move at the same speed as the followers of Fëanor. Finarfin makes a first appearance (under the name of Finrod). In one draft, he apparently did not go along from the start, but sends Felagund and his other sons to take care of their people. In another draft, he comes along and is killed in Alqualondë when he tries to stop the slaughter. In a third attempt, Tolkien decided that Finarfin and his sons were not present for the Kinslaying because they were so reluctant to leave Tirion. The Teleri's resistance is at least partly motivated by fear of the wrath of the Valar. (6)

~ "The Earliest 'Silmarillion'" also first features the curse of treachery and the fear of treachery upon the Noldor. It is not said who pronounces that curse, which is here reported separately from the Prophecy of the North, but it is explicitly made in punishment for Alqualondë and directly results in Fëanor and his sons and followers abandoning Fingolfin and his people on the shore. Fëanor orders the burning of the ships; apparently, all of his sons comply. In a first draft, it is Fingolfin who returns to Valinor at this point; Fingon leads the main host across the Helcaraxë. Later, Tolkien decided that it is Finarfin who turns back, having just caught up with the people of Fingolfin after the ships have been burned, while Fingolfin leads the main host of the Noldor across the Ice. (6)

~ "The Quenta" reintroduces the Oath of the Fëanorians first mentioned in the Lays. The Noldor depart in two separate hosts at different speed. The rear, made up by Finarfin, Felagund and "many of the noblest and fairest of the Noldoli", move so slowly that they again arrive in Alqualondë only when the battle is already over. Nonetheless, the curse explicitly falls upon any that depart from Valinor, even those who had no part in the Kinslaying. It is now uttered along with the Prophecy of Mandos, either by a messenger or by Mandos himself. Finarfin still repents only after the burning of the swan-ships, when Fingolfin and the majority of the Noldor decide to brave the Helcaraxë. (7)

~ According to "The Earliest Annals of Valinor", a whole Valian Year (at that stage encompassing ten "normal" years) passes between the Oath and the actual departure of the Noldor, culminating in the Kinslaying. The Doom of Mandos/ Prophecy of the North occurs another a Valian Year later; Finarfin (still named Finrod) now forsakes the march and seeks the pardon of the Valar at this point. It takes another Valian Year for the remaining Noldor reach the North and argue until Fëanor and his sons seize the ships, burning them when they have reached Middle-earth. The Crossing of the Helcaraxë takes six Valian Years. (8)

~ "The Earliest Annals of Valinor" explicitly say that the "Doom of Mandos" concerns chiefly the House of Fëanor, and only "to a less degree" those who follow them. The "Annals" also elaborate upon the content of the Prophecy of the North, introducing the idea that death by weapons, torment or sorrow are a consequence of the Kinslaying (instead of being caused by not eating Valinorean food) and the fencing of Valinor against the Noldor. There is still no mention of Maedhros standing aside during the burning of the ships. (8) There are hardly any changes in "The Later Annals of Valinor." (9)

~ In the "Quenta Silmarillion," Fëanor's sons are not present when Melkor attacks the treasury of Finwë and indeed seem to have traveled with him to the reconciliation feast. It is also stated that Melkor bred the race of Orcs after he returned to Angband. Angrod and Egnor (Aegnor) stood with Fëanor and traveled on the ships. The decision to travel to Middle-earth was put to a vote, which Fëanor won. Uinen's storm first appears. The curse now falls on everyone who left Valinor if they do not stay and repent. There is still no mention of Maedhros standing aside at Losgar. (10) In "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", several changes have been made, including that Angrod and Aegnor did not agree with Fëanor. (11)

~ It is in "The Annals of Aman" that many changes and additions to the narrative occur. One of the most important is Yavanna's assertion that the light from the Silmarils will rekindle the Trees. Here also Fëanor arrived at the festival alone (his sons' location is not written); named Melkor Morgoth; his speech in Tirion is expanded; the opinions of the Noldorin princes have changed; Manwë's messenger now says Fëanor is exiled because of his oath instead of saying the Valar forbid the march; the Prophecy of the North significantly worsens; among other changes. Finally, Maedhros here stands aside at Losgar for the first time. (12)

~ The most significant change to the narrative in the last version of this chapter is the appearance of the role of Fëanor's sons as messengers from Formenos. Unlike in the published Silmarillion, this is treated as dialogue and gives more detail. (13) Likewise, the quarrel between Morgoth and Ungoliant is greatly expanded with both detail and dialogue. (14)

~ "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" tells a somewhat different version of the burning of the ships at Losgar. Before Fëanor left Tirion, Nerdanel came to him to ask if at least one of her sons could remain behind. When Fëanor refused, she warned him that one of their children would never set foot on Middle-earth. After landing, the camp the Fëanorians built is asleep —but Fëanor rouses Curufin and a few others. They burn the ships so none could sneak back and help Fingolfin and his people cross. However, Amrod had secretly remained aboard the ships (it is thought so he could sail back to Nerdanel) and burns to death in the first ship that Fëanor destroyed. (15)

~ There are several versions of Galadriel's departure from Valinor. In "The Shibboleth of Fëanor," it's stated that she fought against Fëanor's people at Alqualondë and that she desired to travel to Middle-earth to continue to thwart him. (16) In "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn," it's stated that Galadriel and Celeborn (here a Telerin prince) wished to travel to Middle-earth because she felt she'd learned all she could in Valinor. They built a ship, saved it from Fëanor's theft by fighting against his people, and sailed to Middl-earth against Manwë's ban on travel. They ended up in Cirdan's harbor shortly before Fëanor's arrival in Beleriand. (17)



Food for Thought

~ "All one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were." Do you agree? How do you think the story might have continued if Fëanor had initially been willing to surrender the Silmarils?

~ As Tolkien's earliest drafts show, it is possible to have a Silmarillion without the death of Finwë, Oath of Fëanor in Tirion, Kinslaying at Alqualondë or Ship-burning at Losgar. What do you think of the idea of Middle-earth's history without these key events (and with somewhat less violence)?

~ There are several versions of the Fëanorian oath, mostly alike in content but varying in language and style. Do you treat any of them as authoritative (a verbatim recording, so to say)?

~ Do you think there would have been any way to prevent the Kinslaying?

~ Do you consider the "Doom of the Noldor" an actual curse, or merely foresight?

~ Do you think that the timelines offered by the annals, with several Valian Years passing between Darkening, Oath, Kinslaying, Prophecy of the North and ship-burning, are plausible? Do you stick to (one of) them, handle them flexibly, or ignore them altogether?

~ How do you think the remnants of the Noldor led by Finarfin were treated upon their return by the Noldor who never left, the Vanyar, the Teleri, and the Valar?

~ What do you think happened to Ungoliant? Did she really devour herself or does she still live?

~ Which version of Amrod's fate do you prefer: where he dies in the Third Kinslaying or where he dies at Losgar?

~ Which version of Galadriel's leaving Valinor do you prefer?



Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 7. Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "VI. The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor".

(3)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "VII. The Flight of the Noldoli".

(4)The History of Middle-earth: The Lays of Beleriand. II: Poems Early Abandoned. "The Flight of the Noldoli".

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Lays of Beleriand. III: The Lay of Leithian. "The Gest of Beren and Lúthien", Canto VI.

(6)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The Earliest 'Silmarillion'", 4 and 5.

(7)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta", 5.

(8)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VI. The Earliest Annals of Valinor", VY 2991, 2992, 2993, 2994 and 3000.

(9) The Lost Road, "The Later Annals of Valinor," VY 2991--2994

(10) Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 5. Of the Flight of the Noldor

(11) Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," The First Phase, "Of the Flight of the Noldor."

(12) Morgoth's Ring, "The Annals of Aman," The Fifth Section (§117-163)

(13) Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," The Second Phase, "Of the Rape of the Silmarils"

(14) Morgoth's Ring, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," The Second Phase, "Of the Thieves' Quarrel."

(15) The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings," The Shibboleth of Fëanor, "The names of the Sons of Fëanor with the legend of the fate of Amrod."

(16) The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings," The Shibboleth of Fëanor

(17) Unfinished Tales, "The Second Age," The History of Galadriel and Celeborn



Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of the Sindar” is due on May 4.

Comments

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

- Galadriel: In some versions she would have stuck close to Feanor in order to witness all the events. Especially with the Kinslaying since Finarfin and his people were supposed to be at the rear. In order to have fought against Feanor she would have to have traveled with him so far. Unless she was with Fingon / Fingolfin and just joined the battle. Which wouldn't make sense, arriving with the Noldor and than starting to kill them.

Either way she wasn't travelling with her family.

The reason was probably this: when Feanor swears the oath, it's stated "She was eager to be gone" and "no oath she swore, but the words of Feanor about Middle-Earth had kindled in her heart." followed by the wish to rule a realm at her own will. Finarfin was most likely against it, while Aredhel is noticable absent. Galadriel is said to be the only woman among the princes that day.

All in all it makes Galadriel a very interesting character. How was it to travel across the ice if a) killed Noldor b) had been seen to (partly) agree with Feanor and c) having a father who turned around?

Well, Fingon is also mentioned to have succumbed to Feanor's words despite not loving him (together with Agenor & Angrod), while Finrod and Turgon stand in Finarfins corner. They don't want to go or at least hesitate to do so. It's curious how most houses fracture itself in "What are you waiting for", "I want to go" and "I would rather not." Given that Turgon builds a mini-Tirion later I wonder if he would have stayed behind, if his father had asked him?

- The Kinslaying: I like the version that Feanor only attemped to steal the ships first. He fought back, when the Teleri started throwing his people into the water. So it's not outright planned murder on Feanor's part. Besides he already decided the Helcaraxe were suicide. It's not his fault to win an open battle. I blame Olwe far more to have made such a short-sighted decision in the first place. The march to Alqualonde took awhile and could be seen from a great distance. Olwe must have known what Feanor wanted and that he was armed.

- Losgar: Again, perhaps it's not nice, but could Feanor count on Fingolfin's loyality? Or that the ships (damaged when Uinen's tears rose the sea) could make the journey again? How should he have sorted the issue "Who goes first", had he not stolen the ships? I see it as cutting his losses. Amras dying is a bit excessive. I doubt Feanor didn't notice that one of his son is missing.

- Is Nerdanel Queen of the Noldor at this point? She traveled with the host to a certain point and returned later. If yes, would she stay Queen or would she have to give the title to Eärwen? Who probably doesn't want it after the Kinslaying.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Regarding Galadriel - I think it's interesting that she's eager to 'rule a realm at her own will' when she's in Tirion, but when she actually gets to Middle-earth, she seems to have put that behind her, and is content to go and live in Doriath as a guest of Thingol and Melian. From a Doylist perspective, I suspect that's because Tolkien had already listed out the kingdoms of the Noldor in Beleriand long before he conceived of Galadriel as a character, and there was no room for her to have a realm there too.

From a Watsonian point of view, though, I wonder if she was so horrified by what happened at Alqualondë that it cured her of any desire for worldly power and martial glory. Even so, she continued on the journey with her uncles, brothers and cousins instead of accompanying her father back to Tirion - why? Merely out of pride? Or did she feel guilt over the Kinslaying?

One possibility that did occur to me about her involvement in that episode was that maybe initially, she agreed with the plan to seize the ships by force; whether she was with the Fëanorians or she arrived later with Fingolfin and realised what was happening. But I can imagine the fighting spiralled out of control, and what was meant to be a quick, surgical strike to seize the ships turned into mass slaughter and open warfare in the streets of Alqualondë. None of the Elves had any experience of fighting (as opposed to hunting), none of them were trained soldiers, and I can imagine the panic and adrenaline and excitement and terror made some of them at least start killing indiscriminately. When one side has swords and shields and armour - but is outnumbered - and the other only has normal clothing and hunting implements, but there's an entire city of them, it's going to get nasty.

So my thought is that perhaps Galadriel witnessed a group of out-of-control Noldor killing helpless Teleri, thought "No! This isn't what's supposed to be happening! This is wrong!" and basically changed sides in that battle. Maybe tried to defend a group of Teleri civilians, or block the gateway separating the harbour from the city itself to stop more Noldor going through into the town, or something similar. As such, she wouldn't have been fighting directly against the Noldor's 'real' objectives, of seizing the ships - an objective she actually agreed with - but only against those who disobeyed orders and went out of control. That would explain how she was still welcome among the ranks of the Noldor afterwards.

However, she'd also have a double helping of guilt - guilt that she agreed with the original plan to attack the harbour and take the ships, which led to the kinslaying and thus makes her complicit, at least in her own mind, with the slaughter; but also guilt that she ended up fighting against her own kinsfolk and maybe killing people she knew personally.

Personally, I find that story a lot more compelling than the idea that she was just coincidentally in Alqualondë with her husband, chartering a ship to Middle-earth, and got caught up in the Kinslaying purely by accident. :)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think of her going to Doriath as consciously trying to apprentice herself to Melian. The circumstances of Beleriand would have been so different from Aman that she would have thought that ruling a realm successfully would need, so to speak, environmentally-specific techniques. Plus knowledge is power, and who better to learn from than Melian?

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

Since Galadriel is the last Noldor standing in the Third Age and only returned because she withstood the One Ring I guess she was laying low in the First Age. Studing under Melian has it's merrits and she was bascially a ruler in Age 2 and 3.

But I agree wholeheartly about the possibility the fight just spiraled out of control. With a bit mass panic (people running towards the harbor because of the noise and join the fight, because their ship provides daily food income) I guess the Kinslaying was mostly due to inexperience. Doriath and Sirion as well, given how young Dior and Elwing were.

One reason why Galadriel was still welcome, because she went into Exile and suffered the Doom with them. Since all Noldor were cursed for leaving, not for the Kinslaying itself. Otherwise some of the Teleri should suffer from the Doom as well.

[independence1776]

Is Nerdanel Queen of the Noldor at this point? She traveled with the host to a certain point and returned later. If yes, would she stay Queen or would she have to give the title to Eärwen? Who probably doesn't want it after the Kinslaying.

Did she travel? I don't recall reading that anywhere (which doesn't mean much; I don't have HoME memorized). I've always thought Indis took charge until Finarfin returned.

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

It was mentioned that she did. But even if not, when they made Feanor Highking, was Nerdanel Queen by default? She was still married to Feanor, no matter if he went into Exile. And usually I would say the former King's wife has some power, but Feanor never liked Indis and would rather put his wife into power.

And when Finarfin returns, both women would have had influence at court.

It's a curious thought, if Indis gained enough popularity by then to be accepted by the Noldor without her husband at her side.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

As I mentioned in my comments to earlier bits, I think that the whole Flight of the Noldor could have been stopped (or could at least have been much more orderly and organised) if someone had sedated Feanor long enough for cooler heads to take charge in Tirion. However, I can perfectly see that at the time it would not have occurred to anyone that even Feanor could be quite so stupid. And unfortunately, once Feanor was in charge, escalation would have been inevitable. Since in my view the Elves had never had internecine conflicts involving violence before this, I don't think that the Teleri could reasonably have predicted that the Noldor would be willing to kill to get the ships.

"All one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were.". Yes, it would have meant a completely different and notably more positive mental state on Feanor's part, which would in turn have affected his subsequent actions and reactions.

I'm flexible about the timing of events since for me, Aman is continent-sized (my fics are sociable and well-populated and need space), and with no technology beyond horses, things will take time to happen. One of Tolkien's good points as a writer was that he understood distance. If you are assuming, as I do, based on the one surviving map of the Blessed Realm, that Tirion is on the Equator, (with Alqualonde at the latitude of say, Calcutta) it will at the very least take a rather long time to get a huge mass of people on foot (or rowing!) all the way up to the Arctic Circle, especially in very poor terrain, in the dark. Likewise, sea-voyages without engines take time, and so do Arctic treks on foot (Hakluyt's "Voyages" are a handy reference to such situations).

I assumed that the "messages" from Formenos were transmitted telepathically, so as to get the information about Finwe's death and the loss of the Silmarils to the Valar within a reasonable time of the Trees being killed.

The Doom of the Noldor I always read as a simple rational assessment of what was going to happen as a logical outcome of the way that the Noldor were carrying on. After all, death, betrayal and the inevitable failure of all works is part of the way things are in Middle-earth anyway, just from the passage of time. If Mandos had been imposing the Doom on mortals, all he could have said was, "And you shall be Doomed to, er, business as usual."

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

I usually disagree with the opinion that Feanor was suffering from some kind of madness or mental illness (even if it's not unlikey. Morgoth would have targeted him). It's far more tragic and realistic if Feanor thought he was doing the right thing. He mistrusted Morgoth and was one of the few person who could probably tell what the Valar was capable off.

That he still managed to unite his people to a common cause is archivement. Without Feanor the rest of the Noldor would have remained fractured. And taking Feanor out of the picture would have been the wrong thing to do at this point. Fingolfin was getting accused already for wanting the throne (I doubt Finwe made clear who was in line of succession) and any step against Feanor would have treason in the eyes of many, many people.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

These are just matters of opinion or interpretation. Write what you like.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

1. A Silmarillion without all those exciting bits would be less exciting.
2. Like Anna, I totally accept the passage of time between all the major events. I do not think it takes anything away from the story. I even think that the Helcaraxe contingent took SOME time to gather supplies (not enough, obviously.)
3. I am very willing to entertain different interpretations of what happened at Alqualonde. E.g.,in my fic Something Stronger, I had a kinslayer (on the Helcaraxe) give the following explation:

“Olwë had been acting like a man who refuses to lend his brother a horse, even though the brother needs it to chase a villain who has kidnapped his children. ... Few people would blame the brother for getting the horse-hoarder dead drunk so he could steal the animal.”

And also:

"it was true I had been in a fight, and had hurt some people, but those people are probably all better now, sitting in their warm houses, eating delicious food.”

So, you know, I can totally see that it might have seen reasonable to those who participated. However, as a person rather than a POV character, I find any attempt to blame the Teleri quite disturbing. It feels a bit like... blaming the victim of abuse, or at least a crime. "Well, you know how those Feanorians get, and they cannot help it, so it's your responsibility to appease them by any means necessary. If you stand up to them at all, well, you only have yourselves to blame!" The detail of defending the children they had put on the ships actually makes it all feel worse to me. It's a bit like putting one's family in a getaway car: either rather stupid, or unpleasantly calculating.

Tl;dr version: I can understand why the Feanorians did it, but I do not excuse them at all. At the same time, I like them for it! The story would be far less exciting without them!

[mangacrack.livejournal.com]

Blaming the Teleri is always a curious subject. In the situation itself, I believe Olwe could have done little to change the outcome. He probably understimated the willingness of the Noldor to leave or didn't understand their thirst for justice. But afterwards Olwe would try to discern, especially when he finds Finarfin returned.

As a good man / ruler he should feel responsible. I find the idea disturbing that he never felt real remorse at all, because it indicates a state of mind in which he blames all Noldor for what one elf (read: Feanor) initiated.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I am not sure what Olwe should feel remorse for, there. (Not just giving the ships to the Noldor? But surely if you think that not giving up one's property when asked is a mistake, then Feanor started that when he refused to hand over the Jewels? The Teleri even say that the ships are to them as the jewels to Feanor!)

Also, if you are saying that he is wrong to blame the non-Feanor kinslayers because they were just following him then I just cannot agree. That's too close to the "just following orders" defence -- I feel like we all have moral responsibility for our actions.

(And again, the fact that I think that many of the Noldor carry guilt does not mean that I find them irredeemable or uninteresting. The opposite, if anything.)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, blaming the Teleri for resisting the theft of their property is really not something I find morally plausible. But as a story element the Kinslaying is excellent, as the First Step On The Road To Doom. If the Noldor had simply said to Feanor, "Hold on, killing our cousins is Not On, we should sit down and discuss what to do next", the story would be much more sensible and much less dramatic. The Noldor could have agreed to wait and talk it over with the Valar and put together an organised plan to retrieve the Silmarils, for instance.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

LJ just ate my comment! :( I'll try again.

This chapter contains several novels!

As Tolkien's earliest drafts show, it is possible to have a Silmarillion without the death of Finwë, Oath of Fëanor in Tirion, Kinslaying at Alqualondë or Ship-burning at Losgar. What do you think of the idea of Middle-earth's history without these key events (and with somewhat less violence)?
But would it really be the Silm at all?

I agree with Anna Wing that the whole Flight would have been different if cooler heads had prevailed. But who? Feanorians are ruled out of course, Fingolfin seems constrained by his pledge to follow Feanor and suspicions of wanting the throne, Finarfin comes out as weak and indecisive and not even his children pay attention to him (even Orodreth!). Maybe Ingwe? Shouldn't this be *his* moment as High King of all the Elves?

The Kinslaying: There are plenty of RL examples of actions that should come out smooth and easy and turn into disasters. Olwe has said that no loan no lessons in shipbuilding so what could be done? No bloodshed intended, I'm sure. This goes together with the timelines: I like the long years because distances are long and there are a lot of people to get moving. On the other hand, speed is part of Feanor's strategy to get back to Middle-earth and that seems to include not wasting time thinking alternatives to stealing the ships. Slaughtering the Teleri was "collateral damage" for him. (awful phrase)

The Prophecy of the North: Wonderful language and quite a show but nothing *really* new: tears and lamentation and betrayal and frustrations: check (just look at Alqualonde), shutting them out of Valinor: not surprising (weren't they already exiled?), dispossed: check (who has more followers?), death and suffering: why did the Valar take them to Valinor in the first place?

Galadriel: I think the Professor needed to give her some First Age relevance to justify her LotR's stardom. Why not Aredhel, who seem closer to the ambitious warrior princess ? (*should check when this was written*)

I have found out that the Helcaraxe isn't tundra like (as I had always imagined it) but a strait full of icebergs! Wow! (*imagines polar bears floating amid the Noldor*)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I think for me the major problem with the flight of the Noldor and the crossing of the Helcaraxe involves trying to literally explain it or pin down the time frames and try to make them reasonable. Generally, why I prefer to extrapolate in fiction instead of a discussion like this. Fascinating thing that occurred for me this past year was a spate of reading I did about early 20th century attempts at climbing Everest. I was stunned out of my preconceptions about how it was attempted in the past. Descriptions of George Mallory's body showed he wore an outfit similar to what I might have worn to go to work on mass transit in the winter in Chicago in my late 20s. It is very easy for me to blather on endlessly about what was possible on the Helcaraxe or try to guess the methods or the means within the context of my preconceptions, which are often uninformed.

Anyway, not totally on point, I realize. Just that so many of these discussions frustrate me. The Silmarillion is not reality. It floats somewhere between high fantasy and epic legendary or mythology. Not relevant of much of anything in the discussion, I guess.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on how you want to look at it. I write my fics very much from a mimetic perspective, rather as if they are science fiction. So the veneer of realism is important to me, even if vast areas have to be handwaved away (the Trees, for instance; I perfectly agree that as a myth they are stupendous, and far better than Tolkien's late attempts to amend the version). If I'm to write about Tolkien's characters as people at all, the setting has to be something that real people could plausibly be in. I need the real toads to make the imaginary garden.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

What I don't like are univocal interpretations; these discussions are interesting for me precisely because they show the differing/contrasting/conflicting interpretations that eventually come up in fics. Careful, creative thinking does honour to Tolkien who was so precise with the phases of the moon, the temperatures, the distances in world building.

Besides I've been reading the Silm carefully for the first time in years and wow! details emerge that I had forgotten/never realized at all (ditto: Helcaraxe)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

the whole Flight would have been different if cooler heads had prevailed. But who?

The Noldor polity wasn't some sort of dictatorship (Finwe clearly ruled by consent of the people), and there has to have been some sort of existing administrative structure. In the absence of Finwe and because of the dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin, a collective leadership could have been possible at least temporarily. A council of senior and respectable people (of both sexes) could have run things until the succession could be sorted out, or named a third candidate - any of Finwe's other children, for instance, or even someone totally unrelated - to lead a caretaker administration. That might have been more acceptable than appealing to Ingwe, which would have involved outsiders in internal Noldorin affairs.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

Don't you think that the situation was so fraught that collective leadership would have been chaotic (cross accusations of factionalism, for instance?). I realize that I'm influenced maybe by historical precedents in the Italian city states in the Middle Ages where people were at each others' throats so an outsider was brought to sort things out (the Podestá, if I don't misremember). That would be Ingwe's role as High King of all the Elves (by consensus) and even more so after the Teleri got involved. I guess Feanor would have accussed him of being a puppet of the Valar, though.

[independence1776]

This chapter contains several novels!

It really does!

This goes together with the timelines: I like the long years because distances are long and there are a lot of people to get moving

I think a main reason I have problems with the long years is that they take place before the Valar concieved of the Sun and Moon-- that's quite a while without light, and all the plants and a lot of animals would be dead simply due to a lack of food. (Which is one of the reasons why I used the "Myths Transformed" stuff, have Varda remove the dome some nebulous but short time after the Trees die (likely after Fëanor and his followers left Tirion), and poof, that problem solved. But I still ignore the timelines; they don't make a lot of sense to me.) But some time is definitely needed to get 9/10 of a population going.

shutting them out of Valinor: not surprising (weren't they already exiled?)

Fëanor (and probably his sons, though it doesn't say it) were due to their oath, but no one else was. They were merely warned that leaving would not be a smart thing to do right now.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Which version of Amrod's fate do you prefer: where he dies in the Third Kinslaying or where he dies at Losgar?es

Amrod lives! I really hate the version of him burning with the ships. Ugh!

[independence1776]

Me, too! Partly just because I'm a twin and something like that's my worst nightmare, but mainly because it's so senseless, it's not even tragic. It goes from something that could be heartwrenching to over-the-top. I really can't believe Fëanor would be careless enough to kill his own son.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

t goes from something that could be heartwrenching to over-the-top. I really can't believe Fëanor would be careless enough to kill his own son.

Sometimes one reacts on a visceral level to something in a book that erodes one's sympathy rather than engaging it. (I am also currently re-reading George R. R. Martin and he does that to me a lot.) Definitely over-the-top. It makes Feanor too mad or vicious to care about on any level any more and for me that undermines the poignancy of the entire story. If one cannot retain a little sympathy for the Noldor, then it robs the story of the tragic element and leaves me asking myself, "why should care about any of this?"

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes! It really doesn't add anything. Losgar is dramatic enough in the Silmarillion version. Though The Leithian Script proposes a really rather creepy reconciliation of the two versions...

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

Of course! The death at Losgar version is completely over the top!

I forgot to ask you before: what was the rational (if any) for no cheese in the First Age? It sounds really ridiculous.