SWG Re-Read - "Of the Return of the Noldor" Discussion Post

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Chapter 13 – Of the Return of the Noldor


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Summary

After their return to Middle-earth, the Noldor who followed Fëanor immediately find their strength put to the test. The noise they made at their landing has alerted Morgoth's Orcs to their presence. Before the Noldor have fortified their encampment by the shores of a lake called Mithrim, the Orcs attack. In a ten-day battle later called the Battle-under-Stars or Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the Noldor drive the Orcs from Mithrim before them. Even though the Orcs outnumber them and are moreover joined by a second force that had beleagured the settlement of Círdan, the Noldor are victorious. However, they also suffer a severe loss, because Fëanor is fatally injured by Balrogs in this battle. His sons carry him back to Mithrim, but there he dies, not without reminding his sons of their oath and demanding that they avenge their father. His name, "spirit of fire", now proves true in a literal sense: When it leaves, it sets his body on fire.

After Fëanor's death, Morgoth pretends that he is awed by the power of the Noldor. He sends messengers, asking the sons of Fëanor for peace talks and even offering them a Silmaril. Maedhros accepts the invitation. Neither Morgoth nor Maedhros intend to honour the terms of this parley, but Morgoth brings a greater army with Balrog support. Maedhros' troops are all killed, and Maedhros himself is taken to Angband. Because the sons of Fëanor refuse to forsake their war against Morgoth, knowing that he will not release their brother whatever they do and also knowing that they cannot return West as Morgoth demands, Morgoth hangs Maedhros from a cliff on Thangorodrim by his right wrist.

Meanwhile, Fingolfin and his followers reach Middle-earth. Their first course of action is to march against Angband and challenge Morgoth, who ignores them. Maedhros hears them and cries out, but his cries are lost amid the echo. Afterwards, Fingolfin's people march towards Mithrim to recuperate from the crossing of the Ice. Relations are strained between them and the followers of Fëanor, who leave their original settlement and move to the southern shore of Lake Mithrim. Because their two factions will not work together, the Noldor achieve nothing at this time. Fingon sets out to find his former friend, Maedhros, but cannot find a way into Angband. Even as he believes that all hope is lost, he finds where Maedhros is kept. With a little help from Thorondor, sent by Manwë, Fingon succeeds in freeing Maedhros. In time, Maedhros recovers. He also heals the feud of the Noldor by surrendering kingship to Fingolfin.

The re-united Noldor explore Beleriand and take up dealings with the people already living there. Thingol is suspicious of the Noldor and will not have them in Doriath, except for the children of Finarfin, whose mother is Thingol's niece. Angrod is the first Noldorin messenger to speak with Thingol. He wisely does not mention the Kinslaying or the oath of Fëanor when reporting the deeds of the Noldor to Thingol. Thingol permits the Noldor to settle in Hithlum, Dorthonion, and east of Doriath. When Angrod relates this to the other lords of the Noldor, the sons of Fëanor are angry, but Maedhros laughs, pointing out that Thingol has given them leave to dwell anywhere outside his immediate kingdom, only banning the Noldor from the realm of Doriath. The Noldor then spread across Beleriand. Maedhros and his brothers remove east, so that the likelihood of strife between them and the other lords of the Noldor is low. Furthest east lives Caranthir, who there encounters the Dwarves and grows rich by trading with them.

After twenty years of peace, Fingolfin holds a great feast, called Mereth Aderthad. It is attended not only by Noldor, but also Grey-Elves from the woods and shore and even some Green-Elves. Thingol merely sends two messengers, Mablung and Daeron.

Thirty years onwards, Turgon and Finrod, while on a journey together, receive messages from Ulmo in a dream. They do not speak to each other about their dreams, but both feel troubled and realise that peace is not going to last forever. Finrod, inspired by a visit to Menegroth, establishes the Nargothrond in the caverns by the river Narog. The Dwarves help turn the caves into a stronghold, and also make the Nauglamír, a beautiful necklace, for Finrod, whom they name Felagund, "hewer of caves". Galadriel does not accompany her brother because she has fallen in love with Celeborn, a kinsman of Thingol.

Turgon encounters Ulmo himself, who shows him the hidden valley of Tumladen. There, Turgon begins to plan a hidden city based on his memories of home.

Morgoth again tests the strength of the Noldor, sending Orcs against them. The Noldor are again victorious and beat down the Orcs. They are more watchful afterwards, so Morgoth has to work in secret, sending out spies. Elves that are captured and taken to Angband are now turned into his agents. Open attack on the Noldor fails again, however. Now Morgoth breeds the first dragon, Glaurung. He is defeated and driven back to Angband by Fingon. Beleriand has peace for almost two hundred years, in which Noldor and Sindar grow into one people. But it is only a momentary respite.



Our Favourite Quotes

~ "And even as the Noldor set foot upon the strand their cries were taken up into the hills and multiplied, so that a clamour as of countless mighty voices filled all the coasts of the North; and the noise of the burning of the ships at Losgar went down the winds of the sea as a tumult of great wrath, and far away all who heard that sound were filled with wonder."

~ "The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible."

~ "Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that [Morgoth] had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves."

~ "For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of Orcs, thinking so as to come at Morgoth himself; and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance."

~ "Then [Fëanor] died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe."

~ "Then all the Elves of Beleriand were filled with wonder and with hope at the coming of their mighty kindred, who thus returned unlooked-for from the West in the very hour of their need, believing indeed at first that they came as emissaries of the Valar to deliver them."

~ "But as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West; and Fingolfin unfurled his blue and silver banners, and blew his horns, and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet, and the ages of the stars were ended."

~ "But Fingolfin, being of other tempter than Fëanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, withdrew from Dor Daedeloth and turned back towards Mithrim, for he had heard tidings that there he should find the sons of Fëanor, and he desired also to have the shield of the Mountains of Shadow while his people rested and grew strong; for he had seen the strength of Angband, and thought not that it would fall to the sound of trumpets only."

~ "Many of Fëanor's people indeed repented of the burning at Losgar, and were filled with amazement at the valour that had brought the friends whom they had abandoned over the Ice of the North; and they would have welcomed them, but they dared not, for shame."

~ "A wind came out of the east, and bore [the smokes and vapours] over Hithlum, darkening the new Sun; and they fell, and coiled about the fields and hollows, and lay upon the waters of Mithrim, drear and poisonous."

~ "Long before, in the bliss of Valinor, before Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros; and though he knew not yet that Maedhros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships, the thought of their ancient friendship stung his heart."

~ "Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thangorodrim he climbed, and looked in despair at the desolation of the land; but no passage or crevice could he find through which he might come within Morgoth's stronghold."

~ "Then in defiance of the Orcs, who cowered still in the dark vaults beneath the earth, he took his harp and sang a song of Valinor that the Noldor made of old, before strife was born among the sons of Finwë; and his voice rang in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe."

~ "There Maedhros in time was healed; for the fire of life was hot within him, and his strength was of the ancient world, such as those possessed who were nurtured in Valinor. His body recovered from his torment and became hale, but the shadow of his pain was in his heart; and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been."

~ "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë, and not the least wise.' But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree."

~ "Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Fëanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elendë and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils."

~ "Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure."

~ "'In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word.'"

~ "Cold seemed its welcome to the Noldor, and the sons of Fëanor were angered at the words; but Maedhros laughed, saying: 'A king is he that can hold his own, or else his title is vain. Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run. Indeed Doriath alone would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he has the sons of Finwë for his neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us."

~ "That region was named thereafter the March of Maedhros; for northward there was little defence of hill or river against assault from Angband. There Maedhros and his brothers kept watch, gathering all such people as would come to them, and they had few dealings with their kinfolk westward, save at need."

~ "It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan, to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and would come among them at times for common counsel. Yet he also was bound by the oath, though it slept now for a time."

~ "At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will, and oaths were sworn of league and friendship; and it is told that at this feast the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor."

~ "The hearts of the Noldor were high and full of hope, and to many among them it seemed that the words of Fëanor had been justified, bidding them seek freedom and fair kingdoms in Middle-earth; and indeed there followed after long years of peace, while their swords fenced Beleriand from the ruin of Morgoth, and his power was shut behind his gates."

~ "But Ulmo coming up the river laid a sleep upon [Turgon and Finrod] and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone."

~ "But unquiet was upon [Turgon and Finrod] ever after, and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone in untrodden lands, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for it seemed to each that he was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North."

~ "Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth."

~ "Now Morgoth, believing the report of his spies that the lords of the Noldor were wandering abroad with little thought of war, made trial of the strength and watchfulness of his enemies."

~ "But Fingolfin and Maedhros were not sleeping, and while others sought out the scattered bands of Orcs that strayed in Beleriand and did great evil they came upon the main host from either side as it was assaulting Dorthonion; and they defeated the servants of Morgoth, and pursuing them across Ard-galen destroyed them utterly, to the least and last, within sight of Angband's gates. That was the third great battle of the Wars of Beleriand, and it was named Dagor Aglareb, the Glorious Battle."

~ "A victory it was, and yet a warning; and the princes took heed of it, and thereafter drew closer their leaguer, and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Siege of Angband, which lasted wellnigh four hundred years of the Sun."

~ "And desiring above all to sow fear and disunion among the Eldar, he commanded the Orcs to take alive any of them that they could and bring them bound to Angband; and some he so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed chains no more, but walked ever in fear of him, doing his will wherever they might be."

~ "But Morgoth was ill-pleased that Glaurung had disclosed himself oversoon; and after his defeat there was the Long Peace of wellnigh two hundred years."

~ "In many parts of the land the Noldor and the Sindar became welded into one people, and spoke the same tongue; though this difference remained between them, that the Noldor had the greater power of mind and body, and were the mightier warriors and sages, and they built with stone, and loved the hill-slopes and open lands. But the Sindar had the fairer voices and were more skilled in music, save only Maglor son of Fëanor, and they loved the woods and the riversides; and some of the Grey-elves still wandered far and wide without settled abode, and they sang as they went."



Earlier Versions

~ The death of Fëanor is hugely different in The Book of Lost Tales. In the earlier drafts, Fëanor takes a barge to an island in the lake of Asgon (later Mithrim) because he has seen something glitter there and figures it might be the Silmarils. His boat vanishes "down a hidden way" (possibly the tunnels that Tuor later discovers), and Fëanor drowns. In a yet earlier version, it is Nolemë (Finwë) who drowns. (2)

~ Originally, Fëanor (and later, when Fëanor rather than Finwë drowns, Maedhros) is captured, tortured and finally maimed by Morgoth because he will not betray the Noldorin secret of jewel-making. Just how the captured Elf is maimed isn't specified. It is implied that he is then sent back among the Noldor. (2)

~ "Gilfanon's Tale" sets the birth of Turgon - at that time the name of Fingolfin - after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth. Another major event that doesn't happen before the Noldor have reached Mithrim (and until Maedhros has returned to his people): The oath of the sons of Fëanor! (2)

~ In The Book of Lost Tales, there are no victorious battles following the Mereth Aderthad; rather, it is followed (quite soon, apparently) by the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. (2)

~ The Lay of the Children of Húrin maintains the story that Maedhros was maimed by Morgoth himself, but seems to specify the kind of maiming: "Maidros whom Morgoth | maimed and tortured/ is lord and leader,| his left wieldeth/ his sweeping sword." It is not said how Maedhros came to return to his people. (3) In contrast, the Lay of Leithian first narrates that Fingon "daring alone went forth/ and sought for Maidros where he hung" in order to stay the feud between the children of Finwë. Just how exactly Fingon sets Maedhros free is not said. (4)

~ According to the Lay of Leithian, Nargothrond is founded only after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears by Felagund and Orodreth. (4)

~ "The Earliest Silmarillion" first reports that Fëanor was wounded to death by a Balrog. Maedhros is not lured to a parley by Morgoth, but rather seems to have come up with the idea himself. It first reports Thorondor's part in Maedhros' rescue and makes implicit that Fingon cut off Maedhros' right hand in order to free him. (5)

~ The founding of Nargothrond is still set after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. According to "The Earliest Silmarillion", it is achieved by Celegorm and Curufin. (6)

~ In "The Quenta", Fëanor not only lays it upon his sons to keep their oath and avenge their father, but also never to treat or parley with Morgoth – a promise Maedhros breaks pretty much immediately. (7)

~ "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" record not only a feast, but also "Games of Reuniting" for the Year 20 (18 years after the rescue of Maedhros and healing of the feud). Unfortunately, there are no further details about the nature of these games, or about the participants. (8, Y 20)

~ These Annals finally place the founding of Nargothrond by Finrod, and Gondolin by Turgon, at the time later recorded in the Silmarillion: thirty years after the Feast of Reuniting and long before the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Although it is stated that Finrod and Turgon are inspired by a dream, there is no mention of Ulmo's involvement. (8, Y 50(2))

~ Morgoth's "invention" of Dragons is also first recorded in "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand", but there is no mention yet of Fingon's encounter with young Glaurung. (8, Y 122)

~ The "Later Annals" have the first mention of the Green Elves at the Mereth Aderthad. The Dagor Aglareb is the Second Battle. There is still no mention of Fingon fighting Glaurung. (9)

~ In the "Quenta Silmarillion," it's stated that the reason Fingon left to search for Maedhros was that Maedhros' torment troubled him. There is no mention of his great friendship. (10, §94) The elements of reconciliation after Maedhros' recovery—the begging of forgiveness for the abandoment in Eruman, the returning of Fingolfin's goods that had been aboard the ships, the passing of the kingship—are new to this version, as is that not all of the Fëanorians are happy with it. (10, §98) That Turgon's and Finrod's dreams come from Ulmo is a new element. (10, §100) Finrod's nickname Felagund was given to him by the Noldor in jest. (10, §101) The Dagor Aglareb is still the Second Battle. (10, §102) Fingon's encounter with Glaurung first appears, though in this version, Glaurung is displeased to go forth because he's still half-grown, but Morgoth forces him to. (10, §104)

~ In the "Grey Annals," Thingol's reaction to hearing of the Noldor's deeds is regret that the days of peace when he ruled Beleriand are over is new, as is the Sindar's original belief that the Noldor are emissaries of the Valar. (11, §47) Fingon's friendship with Maedhros appears. (11, §61) Angrod's stay in Doriath is new. (11, §63) The council held in Mithrim is likewise new. However, in a major difference from The Lost Road's "Quenta Silmarillion," Fingolfin is basically elected as the overlord of the Noldor and Maedhros is the only Fëanorian not bothered by it. (11, §65-69) This is Galadriel's first mention in the First Age texts, as well as Thingol's helping Finrod find Nargothrond. (11, §75) Dagor Aglareb is here named as the Third Battle. (11, §77) There is no mention of Glaurung, but there is an addition of two paragraphs that state Morgoth went to Sauron to further the plan to bring Men allied with them into Beleriand. (11, §79-80) The passage about the Elves captured by Orcs is also expanded. (11, §81-82).

~ In the Later Quenta, the sound of the arrival of Fëanor's people spreading far appears. (12, §88) At one point, the Elessar of LotR fame was given by Fëanor to Maedhros to Fingon, but this was just a working theory. (12, §88 and 97) The paragraph about Galadriel and Finrod abiding in Menegroth and Ulmo leading Turgon to Tumladen was entirely rewritten. One of the changes was to make the nickname Felagund Dwarven. (12, §101)

~ There are several versions of Celeborn's history, due in large part to Galadriel's emerging history. What is likely is that his first conception was as a Nandorin Elf who never came into Beleriand (as implied in LotR), but that was superseded by a statement in Appendix B to LotR that says he's a kinsman to Thingol. The Silmarillion states that they met in Doriath, as does an essay written after LotR entitled "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn." However, what is likely the last version of Celeborn's history written states that Galadriel met Celeborn (a Telerin prince with the name Teleporno) in Alqualondë and that they planned to sail on their own to Middle-earth, but were caught up in the events of the Darkening and the ban against travel. After spending some time in Doriath—Celeborn remains Thingol's kinsman—they judge the war against Morgoth to be hopeless and travel east before the end of the First Age. (13, 14, 13)



Food for Thought

~ If the Noldor had not returned to Middle-earth (as wiser folk suggested to them), do you think the remaining Elves would have stood a chance against the Orcs for long?

~ Why do you think Manwë sent Thorondor to help Fingon rescue Maedhros, despite the Valar's policy of non-involvement? Do you think it likely that other Valar helped in more subtle ways?

~ In a previous chapter, it was said that all the Elves of Beleriand accepted Thingol as their overlord, and that all but those who live by the shore under Círdan withdrew to Doriath. In this chapter, there are Sindarin Elves living in Mithrim who quickly mingle with the Noldor. Where did they come from? Did they "desert" Thingol's rule in order to join the Noldorin forces for whatever reason? Did they always live elsewhere (without settled abode, as some still do at the end of this chapter) and the chronicler just didn't know about them? Do you see a contradiction here, or do you see this as the result of some development that happened "off record"?

~ "Then all the Elves of Beleriand were filled with wonder and with hope..." All the Elves, including Thingol and his followers? In that case, do you think Thingol's later animosity towards the Noldor in this chapter (i.e., before he even knows about the Kinslaying) stems from disappointed hope, or perhaps from fear for his power?

~ "Thus because of the curse that lay upon them the Noldor achieved nothing..." Do you think that without the curse of the Prophecy of the North, the Noldor would have behaved differently at that time? Do you think the reconciliation achieved by Fingon counteracts the curse, since afterwards, the Noldor achieve quite a bit for a while?

~ You'll probably be aware that Maedhros and Fingon form one of the most popular Silmarillion OTPs ("One True Pairing"). How do you feel about this matter?

~ "Still the kingship would rightly come to you..." The Fëanorians don't all agree. Do you?

~ It is said that by the time of Mereth Aderthad, even the Noldor predominantly spoke Sindarin. Do you take that to mean that they used it as a sort of lingua franca when communicating with the Sindar, Green-elves or Dwarves, or do you believe they used Sindarin even amongst themselves?

~ Which aspect of the difference between the Noldor and Sindar do you consider more important – the "greater power of mind and body", or culture/tradition?

~ Why didn't people see Glaurung as a sign of dangers to come?

~ Which version of Celeborn's history do you like the best? Why?



Works Cited

(1)The Silmarillion. "Chapter 13. Of the Return of the Noldor".

(2)The History of Middle-earth: The Book of Lost Tales 1. "X. Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind".

(3)The Lays of Beleriand. "I. The Lay of the Children of Húrin". III: Failivrin.

(4)The Lays of Beleriand. "The Lay of Leithian". Canto VI.

(5)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The Earliest 'Silmarillion'", 8.

(6)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "II. The Earliest 'Silmarillion'", 9.

(7)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "III. The Quenta", 8.

(8)The History of Middle-earth: The Shaping of Middle-earth. "VII. The Earliest Annals of Beleriand." Years 20, 50 (2) and 122.

(9) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, Years 1-51.

(10) The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Siege of Angband," §88-104

(11) The War of the Jewels, The Grey Annals, §42-82

(12) The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Siege of Angband," §88-102

(13) Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

(14) Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn"



Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole – everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

ATTENTION: Change of plans! We're going to have a little summer break. “Of Beleriand and its Realms” and "Of the Noldor in Beleriand" will both be due on July 13.

Comments

[moetushie]

- Fingon/Maedhros is one my forever OTPs. I never really had one before them. They give me a lot of feels. :')

- I hadn't heard of the version where Feanor drowns! That's hilariously appropriate, really, although so is not-so-spontaneous combustion.

- Teleporno will never not be funny to me, but I've always loved the version where Galadriel is a fiery rebel who finds love with someone who grew up in a another culture than hers.

[independence1776]

Why are they your OTP? (I'm curious; I don't ship them, but one of the reasons why is that I think Maedhros is an aromantic asexual, so…)

I absolutely, could not resist mentioning Teleporno. On one had, yes, it's important for those who've seen the name floating around and not know where it came from. But I mainly put it in for the humor. (The version of Galadriel you like best is the one I like best, too.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Well, one can have Teleporno even without the (ridiculous, IMTNHO ;)) "they came together from Valinor" story. Elu Thingol was called Elwë Singollo once; if Celeborn was also born (haha) before Sindarin was (fully) developed, he would surely have been named Teleporno even in Middle-earth! :D

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I am not going to answer most of the questions... except to say that all those mentions of "the Elves of Beleriand" seem to lack precision, and are probably referring to various subsets. (I can also well believe that there would have been Sindar who thought of Thingol as their actual, overall king, but lived in e.g., Gondolin and conformed to its laws -- and yes, respected Turgon as a king-right-here. Political loyalties do not need to be clear-cut.)

Oh, and I totally see the difference between the Noldor and the Sindar as cultural. (I know mileage varies on this, though.)
And as for the language question... the Noldor do seem prone to linguistic schisms, don't they? Perhaps it was simpler just to speak Sindarin to any random Elves one might encounter than to worry about how much one should lisp?

And I certainly do believe that some other Valar helped, in sneaky ways, to the point of having written a fic about Yavanna's secret contributions.

Okay, so it seems that I am have opinions on more of the questions than I had supposed.

Now, here are a couple of points I would like to add:
- I love the idea of Morgoth forcing a teenage Glaurung to go outside and do some goddamn work instead of sulking in his lair listening to horrible music or similar.
- Feanor's death feels like a huge let-down to me, the way he has been built up. So while rereading this, I started thinking... perhaps this is all evidence for the claim that the Silmarils contained part of him*? He had always been volatile, of course, but his decisions since the Darkening of Valinor just keep getting worse and worse.

(* Has anyone played Portal? Silmarils as cores...)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

all those mentions of "the Elves of Beleriand" seem to lack precision, and are probably referring to various subsets.

It certainly comes across like it! It's just annoying because so often it's "all the Elves of Beleriand this" and "all the Elves of Beleriand that" and some canatic is always going to try and rub that in your face if you're writing Elves of Beleriand doing something else, because ALL OF THEM TOTALLY DID THAT CANON SAYS SO. Not that I've encountered that sort of thing or anything...

Good point about the lack of clear-cut political loyalties!

Perhaps it was simpler just to speak Sindarin to any random Elves one might encounter than to worry about how much one should lisp?

Haha, too true!

And I certainly do believe that some other Valar helped, in sneaky ways, to the point of having written a fic about Yavanna's secret contributions.

Link or it didn't happen ;)

I love the idea of Morgoth forcing a teenage Glaurung to go outside and do some goddamn work instead of sulking in his lair listening to horrible music or similar.

Bwahahah, mental images! I'm totally willing to buy that Morgoth himself would have sent Glaurung out over-soon (and then later be annoyed at himself and blame Glaurung instead), too.

perhaps this is all evidence for the claim that the Silmarils contained part of him*?

Well, they certainly did psychologically. Part of his mind was possessed by them, so everything he did was driven by the need to get them back, rather than by what would have been reasonable to do.
But of course they might also have contained part of him in a more literal sense. That's certainly how it works with Sauron and the One Ring (though Sauron really should've known better, with the fate of Fëanor as a warning example...), after all!

[independence1776]

Perhaps it was simpler just to speak Sindarin to any random Elves one might encounter than to worry about how much one should lisp?

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Feanor's death feels like a huge let-down to me, the way he has been built up. So while rereading this, I started thinking... perhaps this is all evidence for the claim that the Silmarils contained part of him*?

It feels like a let-down to me, too, especially the first time I read the book. He brings nine-tenths of the Noldor out of Aman and then… dies. On one hand, I can see why it might be easier-- and better for Beleriand!-- that he died before dividing the Noldor even further (because I cannot see him reconciling easily, if at all). It may be evidence for the Silmaril theory, that he couldn't rest because a part of him was being held and no one else really recognized or understood it.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

I think the Sindar didn’t have much chance of fighting successfully against Morgoth, just out of sheer numbers. Thingol is being hypocritical and self-serving in his dealings with the Noldor: he takes advantage of their military success but offers no alliance and yet he still seems to expect some kind of overlordship over all the Eldar in Beleriand. I think that Maedhros is spot on in his assessment: Thingol grants lands over which he has no power, let him rule over Doriath,” and be glad that he has the sons of Finwë for his neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found” and then this wonderfully Feanorian/Noldorin phrase “ Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us."

Thorondor : Once JRRT put Maedhros high up, he needed some way to get him down and eagles are a favourite of his for rescue missions. So Thorondor’s intervention is dramatic and, yes, Manwë must have been watching.

"Still the kingship would rightly come to you..." : the abdication is the single most important political decision that Maedhros takes and shows that he's in control, understands their predicament and Morgoth didn't break him

About the use of Sindarin: I agree with the lingua franca idea. Among themselves the Noldor must have used Quenya. I find fics where the Feanorians address each other domestically by their Sindarin names unrealistic (for want of a better word!)

~ Why didn't people see Glaurung as a sign of dangers to come?
People tend to ignore a long-term threat (even a baby dragon!) when they have short-term worries and interests (*looking at recent Argentine history, believe me*)

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

I find fics where the Feanorians address each other domestically by their Sindarin names unrealistic (for want of a better word!)

With a few exceptions, I tend to assume that such fics have been run past an in-world translator (similar to whoever "translated" the Silm). But I think some of the Noldor must have seen their new Sindarin names as epessi, rather than mere diplomatic translations. I've read at least two different fics about Maedhros choosing his name that make it seem like he won't be using his old ones anymore.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Thingol is being hypocritical and self-serving in his dealings with the Noldor

I cannot even put into words how much I agree! But then, I'm not a fan of Thingol anyway. This just serves to underline my opinion (and Maedhros' reaction is indeed spot-on. But then, I am a fan of Maedhros...)

I find fics where the Feanorians address each other domestically by their Sindarin names unrealistic

Agreed again. I can read it, but it always clashes a bit with "my" inner Middle-earth. ^^

People tend to ignore a long-term threat (even a baby dragon!) when they have short-term worries and interests

Good point. For all that the Eldar are supposedly better and wiser than mortals, in the Silmarillion they certainly prove that they're not. Which I like, really (even as it makes me facepalm at them). Human protagonists are so much more interesting than always-perfect, near-omniscient super-heroes!

[independence1776]

yet he still seems to expect some kind of overlordship over all the Eldar in Beleriand.

Well, it was his land first and the Noldor are, from his perspective, invaders. Though his solution, as Maedhros rightly points out, doesn't really do much to affect his actual power.

the abdication is the single most important political decision that Maedhros takes and shows that he's in control, understands their predicament and Morgoth didn't break him

And he absolutely needed to do all three, especially the last. If Morgoth had broken him, or there was even an appearance of it, things would have turned out differently. (I have a half a dozen different scenarios running through my head right now, and not a one of them turns out better than canon.)

Among themselves the Noldor must have used Quenya. I find fics where the Feanorians address each other domestically by their Sindarin names unrealistic (for want of a better word!)

I may be in the minority, but it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe not at first, but by the end of the First Age, I think them using Sindarin frequently is more than likely. (In pre-Exile Aman fics, I understand the real-world reasons why it happens: a lack of knowledge of the Quenya names or a desire to stick with the more familiar Sindarin ones, but in-universe, I find it less realistic.)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

About the use of Sindarin: I agree with the lingua franca idea. Among themselves the Noldor must have used Quenya. I find fics where the Feanorians address each other domestically by their Sindarin names unrealistic (for want of a better word!)

I have to agree that the Noldor, particularly among family and close friends, would have continued to use Quenya privately. Language is very personal and part of one's identity. I see lots of examples in my daily life of people who have not used their birth tongue at work or in a public setting for decades who still use it at home.

Relating to the discussion about the change of the Quenya names of the Noldor to Sindarin forms when they settled in Beleriand in Middle-earth, the texts note they were made by the Noldor “[i]. . . because of the sensitiveness of the Eldar to languages and their styles. [A bunch of linguistic geeks.] They felt it absurd and distasteful to call living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode.[/i]” [Shibboleth of Fëanor] But I still think this sense of rightness or wrongness even more so reinforces that individuals when speaking their native tongue among themselves would revert to the original/Quenya forms of their names.

At the risk of mixing apples and oranges a little, it reminds me of the way that I call my youngest brother “Tommy” as opposed to the names “Tom” or “Thomas,” which he uses outside of his family circle. It feels awkward and affected to me to change the name I have always used for him.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Since Feanor's decisions had been so outstandingly awful up to then, I rather think that bad as the outcomes eventually were in Beleriand, his continued survival might well have made them worse.

I don't think that Thingol formally ruled everyone in Beleriand, There must have been plenty of elves (such as those in Mithrim) and the Laiquendi, who might have acknowledged a nominal overlordship, but in practice did what they wanted without consulting him. And I don't think that Melian could have won a direct confrontation with Morgoth himself if he had actually turned up in person on the borders of Doriath, so it was just as well for Thingol that the Noldor were there to hold the rest of Beleriand, at least for a while.

The suggestion that Galadriel and Teleporno came, as it were, together-but-separately with the rest of the Noldor is in my view clumsy and dramatically unsatisfactory. I prefer the version where she came to Middle-earth with the rest and met her cousin Celeborn in Doriath. Though I also think (based on what she says in LOTR) that they went east before the Dagor Bragollach, at some point during the Siege of Angband. That would avoid awkward questions about what they were doing when Doriath and Sirion fell.

I have no particular interest in Maedhros/Fingon. I go with the Silmarillion version where they were cousins and friends, and Fingon was Gil-Galad's father.I have my own ideas about who Maedhros eventually ended up with, but that is a work in progress.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

who might have acknowledged a nominal overlordship, but in practice did what they wanted without consulting him. And I don't think that Melian could have won a direct confrontation with Morgoth himself if he had actually turned up in person on the borders of Doriath, so it was just as well for Thingol that the Noldor were there to hold the rest of Beleriand, at least for a while.

I think you're right on both counts!

The suggestion that Galadriel and Teleporno came, as it were, together-but-separately with the rest of the Noldor is in my view clumsy and dramatically unsatisfactory.

Isn't it just? I sort of understand what Tolkien was attempting to do, but I don't think it was a good idea, and he didn't pull it off well, either. I'm glad CRJT ignored that version when he put the Silmarillion together. I'm fine with them going east before the Dagor Bragollach, if that's what it takes (though I prefer Galadriel's involvement in everything ;)), but writing her out of the Kinslaying is just... meh. Unsatisfactory, just as you say!

[independence1776]

Since Feanor's decisions had been so outstandingly awful up to then, I rather think that bad as the outcomes eventually were in Beleriand, his continued survival might well have made them worse.

Me, too. I could see civil war between the Noldor. Or at the very least, a lack of alliances that would make it easier for Morgoth to conquer Beleriand and on a swifter time-scale.

Though I also think (based on what she says in LOTR) that they went east before the Dagor Bragollach, at some point during the Siege of Angband. That would avoid awkward questions about what they were doing when Doriath and Sirion fell.

I don't have a firm opinion on when Galadriel and Celeborn left, but my current thought is that it happened sometime after Lúthien's death and before everything happened. Galadriel tried to warn Thingol, and when that didn't work, they left for their own safety.

I go with the Silmarillion version where they were cousins and friends, and Fingon was Gil-Galad's father.

Me, too. I have no objection to reading stories with it, but it's not something I have any interest in writing.

[hhimring]

I think the rules about Noldorin succession were probably not really all that clear and allowed different interpretations, especially as they don't seem to have been really tested before. Maedhros picks the interpretation that works politically in the situtation they find themselves in (and makes a daring pun on Fingolfin's name while he's at it--perhaps to demonstrate to his own side that that doesn't mean he's a push-over). If you go with the HoME explanation of initial Fin- in Fingolfin, Fingolfin had at that point already clearly staked his claim.

It wouldn't have been obvious to Fingon and his people that Glaurung was a young dragon, I think, since he was the first of his kind, so they could not really have anticipated what he would be like when he was full grown.. Although it should certainly have indicated to them that Morgoth was experimenting.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I think the rules about Noldorin succession were probably not really all that clear and allowed different interpretations, especially as they don't seem to have been really tested before.

That's what I figure, too. In Valinor, they wouldn't really think of possession rules; for all we know, they might not have taken any of Finwë's sons as new Noldorin king, but elected someone else! At the very least, it's perfectly likely that whoever appeared most capable of the sons of Finwë would become king. (That also makes Fëanor's extreme feelings of rivalry somewhat more understandable.) In Middle-earth... well, it's still all pretty new. Either way, there's no reason they should immediately have gone for male-primogeniture-from-father-to-son. It feels a bit like Tolkien felt that was a natural choice, but if "old age" isn't actually an issue, candidates of the same generation are as good as candidates from the next generation...

It wouldn't have been obvious to Fingon and his people that Glaurung was a young dragon, I think, since he was the first of his kind, so they could not really have anticipated what he would be like when he was full grown.

Ooh, excellent point. And perhaps they were too cocky to figure out that Morgoth might have something bigger up his sleeve (in time, at least)...

[independence1776]

I think the rules about Noldorin succession were probably not really all that clear and allowed different interpretations, especially as they don't seem to have been really tested before.

That explains rather a lot why there's so much anger and rivalry bound up in the question, both in Aman and in Middle-earth. If no one really knows, then of course the first time it became relevant, things would be messy. It was just bad fortune that it happened like it happened. (Not that it would ever have been easy.)

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I have long thought the same thing about Noldorin succession laws -- "oh so irrelevant in Valinor" etc -- but I just had a thought: what about *before* Valinor? For all we know, Elves were dropping like flies back then...

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

The Food for Thought questions caught my interest. :)


1. I think Melian could have held Doriath secure against any number of Orcs. I'm less sure what would happen if Sauron or a host of Balrogs launched an attack. Morgoth in person could have overwhelmed her easily.

Then again, I'm not sure he would even bother. If she kept within her guarded forest and didn't challenge the King of the World, she'd just be an annoyance to be dealt with some day or other, when he got round to it. She might even be useful as a threat to keep his minions' minds concentrated, instead of fighting among themselves.

Everything outside of Doriath, and perhaps Nogrod and Belegost, would be a desolate wasteland though.


2. I just recently saw something in one of the early Silm drafts in HoME that caught my eye: most of the Valar were very eager to cut off Valinor from Middle-earth entirely, building impenetrable magical defences around it and washing their hands of the rebellious Noldor. However, there were three Valar who disagreed with the consensus and still wanted to aid the Exiles. One was Ulmo, which is unsurprising given his involvement in the later stories (aiding Turgon, Tuor, Elwing, etc). The other two, though, were Manwë and Varda.

That surprised me: if Manwë is the King of the Valar, why did he let himself be outvoted? I suppose he must be a constitutional monarch after all! But it does explain why he's sending out his eagles to give covert assistance to the Elves on a deniable basis, much like US Presidents ordering drone strikes in third-world countries.

I don't know if Varda offers any specific aid, but we do know she can hear when people cry out to her from the Outer Lands. So maybe she's the one who notices when people need help, and passes the details to Manwë.

It's also interesting that Yavanna was one of the Valar happy to wash her hands of Middle-earth, given that she was the foremost voice calling for battle against Melkor after the fall of the Lamps. Purely personal speculation, but perhaps she was too embittered by the death of the Trees and Fëanor's refusal to give up the Silmarils to heal them, which she took personally?


3. I don't recall the specific passage; but I assume that if the Sindar of Hithlum took refuge within Doriath when the Orcs invaded, then once the returning Noldor defeated those Orcs they'd return home again.


4. Thingol's a king. Even while he's grateful to the Noldor for their aid, he's wondering what the price will be, and what the long-term implications are going to be. If more Elven monarchs thought like that, their history might be less turbulent and dramatic...


5. I'm not sure if the Curse was a prophecy of what would happen, or an actual curse that makes these things come about. I'm not sure Tolkien knew either, though curses were a big part of his source material - and the early Silm drafts include a lot more mention of phrases like, "And this came to pass because of the Curse of the Noldoli" and the like.


6. I'm sure Tolkien didn't intend it to be canon, and they're first cousins besides, but apart from that: sure, why not?


7. At the Feast of Reuniting, the Noldor changed their succession law from Cognatic Seniority to Agnatic Primogeniture. (Reference that possibly only people who've played Crusader Kings 2 will get...)

(To be continued due to length)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

8. The Noldor are people who woke up and decided one day, collectively and with only one abstention (Míriel), to pronounce the sound Th- as S- instead, simply because they thought it sounded better. They're an entire race of language geeks just like Tolkien himself was. I think it's entirely in character for them to say, "Well, we've spoken Quenya for the last 3000 years, I think it's time for a change! This new Sindarin language looks fun, let's all learn it!"


9. Normally I'd say cultural, but I do like the idea that seeing the Two Trees in bloom gave the Noldor immense cosmic powerz.


10. Well, Chapter 18 goes into that, with Fingolfin worried that Morgoth is up to something in his dark pits, but the other Elves are too complacent to act.


11. My preferred version is for him to be a kinsman of Thingol, and Galadriel met him in Doriath. It's possible he was old enough to have been on the Great Journey, and was one of the Teleri who stayed behind to search for Elwë rather than being born in Doriath - which, yes, would mean his original name was in Quenya.

It's remotely possible he chose to stay behind in Middle-earth because he thought 'Celeborn' was a much better name than 'Teleporno', and was one of the prime instigators of changing the Grey-Elven language into Sindarin. :)

Also, my preferred Galadriel-version was on Fëanor's side at the Kinslaying of Alqualondë, and bears the guilt from that. I do like to reconcile the idea that she fought against Fëanor with the non-canonical idea that she agreed with stealing the ships by stealth, was horrified when that turned into violence (and perhaps blamed Fëanor and his sons for being reckless and careless); and then outraged when the fighting spread to engulf the whole town and dragged in non-combatants. If I could draw, I can imagine a picture of her standing with drawn, bloody sword in a doorway or archway, a bunch of scared Teleri children peeping around her, warding off a group of Fëanorian soldiers who are half-mad with bloodlust and adrenaline and trying to force their way in...

[independence1776]

The Food for Thought questions caught my interest.

I'm glad to hear that!

1. Morgoth's reasoning makes sense-- he left the Havens and the Fëanorians alone for that reason. At some point, they'll be wiped out no matter what and why not taunt them with "will the main attack happen today? tomorrow? next week?" in the meanwhile.

4. Long-term thinking, for such long-lived beings, does seem to be in somewhat short supply at this point…

5. I'm not sure Tolkien knew, either. It could be read in both directions. I tend more toward the Oath was an active, binding oath that by its nature was somewhat magical; but I'm not sure how the Curse works. Parts of it seem like prophecy and other parts like a listing of the consequences.

6. They're technically half-cousins, but I do see them as first cousins in a sprawling, (un)happy family. (Which at first pinged my incest squick, because I was raised to think first cousin relationships are incestuous, but knowing biologically that they're the equivalent of second cousins and some good fic helped get me past it.)

7. I didn't get the reference, but I looked it up on the Crusader Kings II wiki. (The link for everyone else who is curious.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

The Food for Thought questions caught my interest. :)

Mission accomplished! :)

1) I agree that Doriath would be safe thanks to Melian as long as Morgoth didn't personally drop by (which doesn't seem to be his style, after the Darkening he seems to prefer lurking and letting others do the dirty work). I love the idea that Melian might serve as a sort of motivational threat to Morgoth's minions!

2) Hot damn, I never even noticed that discrepancy. Thank you for pointing that out. I guess either Mandos went "IT IS THE WILL OF ILÚVATAR" and Manwë got no message to the contrary, or Manwë really was outvoted by the other Valar - and accepted it. Most intriguing!

5) That's the tricky thing, isn't it? Personally, I tend to believe that things just happened because of one thing or another, but whenever they happened in a way that fitted what Mandos (or his messenger) had said in the Prophecy/Curse, it was naturally taken as evidence that some sort of curse was at work... but it's never quite clear whether that's the way Tolkien meant it, or whether we are to take the Curse literally after all.

6) He probably didn't (though a friend of mine pointed out that there are some parallels in the Thangorodrim storyline to figures from Greek myth that have strong links to homosexuality, particularly Prometheus and Ganymedes. Which is probably complete coincidence and no evidence for anything, but you never know!
(First half-cousins. Besides, would the incest taboo apply to people who are a) already breaking another taboo (possibly) and b) not likely to procreate with each other? *ducks and hides*)

8) Not going to buy the "one day they just decided to do that" explanation for the shift from TH to S (it took decades - centuries if you take poetic language into account - for English to switch from "hath"/"doth"/"speaketh" to "has"/"does"/"speaks"), but I do think that the Noldor would be up to adopting a new language. I doubt the Sindar would be incapable of learning Quenya if they wanted to, the way the Silmarillion suggests (especially since I expect many of them would have spoken some form of Quenya in their childhood and early youth?), but they never needed to because the "invaders" were perfectly willing to start speaking the language already common in Beleriand.

Actually, since Sindarin has the interdental fricative, maybe the Noldor collectively realised that going from TH to S was a mistake, but it would be too much of a bother to change Quenya again so why not take this convenient new language? ;)

11) I like your Galadriel interpretation, all of it. :D

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to respond to 7 to say that the Feanorians have NOTHING on the sort of crap my family pulls on me whenever I play CK2. Wall-to-wall backstabbing, basically. Maybe I should stop trying to pick ambitious wives...

[lalwen.livejournal.com]

>.< This chapter post prompted me to finally delurk after years of hiding in the shadows, because Maedhros and Fingon! A pair dear to my heart — one of the very first slash fics I read back in my early/mid-teens was M/F, and it actually played a pivotal role in changing my views on homosexuality (I grew up in a fairly conservative country). The rescue is one of my favourite bits in the Silmarillion! As to why Manwë sent Thorondor to help… I guess the Valar wanted to get a bit more use out of Maedhros, before he was propelled onwards to his inevitable doom? But that is a rather bleak view.

The language bit is awfully interesting, although I kinda side-eye the “Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor” bit. I tend to interpret “slow” as “unwilling” because, to be honest, if someone were to (voluntarily) move to my country and insist on being spoken to in their own mother tongue, I would be quite pissed. I feel that the onus should be on the Noldor to learn the language of the locals. That said, I think they have every right to preserve their mother tongue among themselves, and think they spoke Quenya to each other, at least in the beginning. It probably wouldn’t be long before Sindarin influences begin to seep in, though. Also, I imagine Sindarin skills would vary wildly among them, depending on how much interaction each individual has with the Sindar. Unless Elves are super language-learning bots able to acquire a language without using it much (actually a possibility).

I am still undecided on whether the Fëanorians spoke Quenya or Sindarin (or both) among themselves, but the name question got me thinking… For Maedhros, Maitimo would be a cruel reminder and mockery of his former beauty. Nelyafinwë would be kinda… invalid at this point (and I think Maedhros preferred his mother-name anyway?). I expect Nelyo and Russandol would dredge up childhood memories too painful to recall. But Maedhros does sound out-of-place when speaking Quenya. *shrugs*

( On a slight tangent: from my own experience, I’ve found that transiting from one language to another with someone is super weird in the beginning, but entirely possible if one perseveres. The awkwardness and mortification fades after a while. I cannot imagine speaking multiple languages with the same person, though! Maybe one gets used to that, too?

Also, I moved to a country where my name gets butchered regularly, but still can’t bring myself to adopt a new, local-language-friendly name. My name is so integral to my identity that the idea of using anything else makes me uncomfortable (and I know I will never totally fit in anyway, as I look completely foreign). I guess it also depends on how similar the languages in question are. At least Quenya-to-Sindarin names would somewhat resemble their original forms, which *might* help the easing-it-into-one’s-identity part. And they don't have to worry about surnames, either! )

Sorry for the rambling. Language and identity is a fascinating topic, and somewhat personal too :’D

As for Celeborn — the pedantic, humourless part of me can’t help thinking Teleporno probably doesn’t mean anything… suggestive for the Elves (or does it?), but my (much more dominant) immature side has been cackling at that name for years. I much prefer the Celeborn-as-Sindar version because it adds a nice culture-clashy dimension to his and Galadriel’s relationship. Besides, Galadriel with a Dark Past is much more interesting.

Anyway, um, hi. I shall post this before my anxiety gets the better of me and I chicken out (again).

[independence1776]

Welcome! I'm glad to meet you! :D

it actually played a pivotal role in changing my views on homosexuality

I think fandom has done that for many people.

I'd quote your entire first paragraph about language because I agree with it! (Though it's more complicated in real life, of course. Easier to talk about fictional politics than real ones.)

I cannot imagine speaking multiple languages with the same person, though! Maybe one gets used to that, too?

Well, code-switching is a thing!

Sorry for the rambling. Language and identity is a fascinating topic, and somewhat personal too

You have nothing to apologize for! It's interesting to me, too.

the pedantic, humourless part of me can’t help thinking Teleporno probably doesn’t mean anything… suggestive for the Elves (or does it?)

Celeborn means "tree of silver," so I guess it depends on how dirty your mind is. (In general, I don't think it is suggestive. But you never know…)

I'm really glad you overcame your anxiety to comment! I know how hard it is.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I just realised something I'd never thought of before, from reading a passage in HoME (the 'Ambarkanta'):

The Helcaraxë, the bridge of ice that Fingolfin and his followers walked across. I've always assumed it was not much different to the Arctic pack ice nowadays; bleak and inhospitable and dangerous, but not impassible.

But I was missing something vital: at this point in time, the world is flat. (Unless you prefer to go with the Roundworld version of the mythology.) The Great Ocean pours over the edge of the world into the Void - presumably the water is endlessly renewed again, as the ocean hasn't run dry yet. According to the Ambarkanta (which Tolkien wrote some time in the 30s), the water pouring over the edge of the world freezes in the coldness of the void, turning into ice that stretches out almost to the Walls of Night.

So that's what the Elves had to walk across. A thousand-mile waterfall thundering over the edge of the world, only for the water to freeze solid in the depths of space. So you have a thin crust of ice, all convoluted and irregular as the spray and foam from the waterfall froze, which extends out like frosting around the edge of the world, unsupported, and extending out over the infinite Void.

Eep.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Holy crap. I'm not sure the Noldor would've walked across the actual waterfall, rather than the pack ice well behind that frozen waterfall... but either way, that's some damn powerful imagery. (Not to mention terrifying!) And I've never thought about it before, either, so thank you for bringing that to my attention!