SWG Re-Read - "Of the Coming of Men into the West" Discussion Post

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Of the Coming of Men into the West

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine to jump in, even if you haven’t participated in previous discussions. We don’t bite!

Also, you are welcome to comment on old chapter discussions. Although the re-read is moving on, discussions are never closed!


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Summary

After a hunting trip with Maedhros and Maglor, Finrod Felagund makes a detour into the north of Ossiriand. There he happens across a host of mortal Men who have followed their chieftain Bëor westwards. Fascinated by these newcomers, Finrod watches them from hiding, but at night when they have fallen asleep, he takes up a crude harp and sings to them. They wake and listen, seeing the history that Finrod sings of as visions before their eyes.

Finrod stays among Men for a long time, learning their tongue and teaching them lore. He tries to learn about their past, but Bëor does not know much and does not want to talk about the darkness that they have left behind. Later, it is said that the spies of Morgoth came among Men even as they woke, and tried to corrupt them.

Finrod learns from Bëor that more mortals are making their way across the Blue Mountains: some of Bëor's kindred, and also a tribe known as the Haladin and the great following of a chieftain called Marach. The Green-elves of Ossiriand are already upset about the mortals who have reached their lands, and appeal to Felagund to encourage Men to either turn back or move on. Therefore Felagund advises Bëor to gather his people and remove into the land of Amrod and Amras, near to the borders of Doriath. Their abode is called Estolad. Felagund eventually wishes to return to his own lands. Bëor wishes to come with him rather than stay with his own people, and passes his leadership on to his son Baran.

Soon after, the Haladin reach Ossiriand. Encountering the unfriendly Green-elves, they turn towards Thargelion in the lands of Caranthir, who ignores them for the most part. The year after, Marach's people come across the mountains. Because they are many and war-like, the Green-elves hide from them and do not dare to afflict them. But the people of Marach leave their land of their own accord, hearing that the erstwhile followers of Bëor are living in Estolad where the land is green and fertile. They settle to the south and east of Baran's people, with whom they live in friendship.

Felagund often visits Men and other Noldor and Sindar are also curious about the Newcomers, whom they name the Edain. They see hope in the strength of Men and invite them to live in their lands and enter their service. Many Edain follow their invitation. Thingol alone does not want mortal followers, and indeed commands that Men are only to dwell in the North, that their Eldarin lords are responsible for everything they do, and that none of them are to enter Doriath.

Other Edain remain in Estolad, but they grow discontent. They gather to discuss what to do. Some argue that the Eldar are protecting the land against the power of Morgoth and it is sensible to help them, while others say that Men should stay out of their conflict. One even suggests that it is not Morgoth but the Eldar who want to rule all Middle-earth, although it later appears that he was a spy of Morgoth pretending to be Amlach, one of Marach's grandsons. Amlach, who originally was against aiding the Eldar, is so disturbed that his appearance was used as a tool of Morgoth that he enters Maedhros' service. But many other Edain who had so far remained in Estolad left that region for the South.

The Haladin in Thargelion are attacked by Orcs, who kill their leader Haldad and his son Haldar. Haldad's daughter Haleth holds the people together, but they are besieged by Orcs until Caranthir and his host arrive, driving the Orcs into the rivers. Caranthir now realises that mortals may be an asset to his forces, offering Haleth lands to the north as well as his friendship and protection. Haleth and her people are afraid of the strings that may come with Elven protection, and therefore remove to Estolad, where they live in peace for a while. Later, Haleth wishes to move further west, taking her people to the Forest of Brethil with great losses. Thingol claims Brethil as part of his realm and would like to deny it to Haleth and her people, but Felagund manages to get his permission after all.

After a while the rulers of the Elves decide that Elves and Men shouldn't mingle without order and set apart regions where Men can live their own lives and appoint chieftains to lead Men. They remain allies, and many young Edain continue to serve in the host of the Elven kings. Thus they get mixed up in the Doom of the Noldor, and their deeds enter the history of the First Age. After reaching Beleriand, Men grow older than before, but nonetheless they grow old and die. When Bëor dies, the Eldar for the first time understand how brief mortal lives are. Nonetheless, in their short lives those Men who have encountered the Eldar learn swiftly from them and surpass those mortals who never made their way westwards.


Our Favorite Quotes

~ "When three hundred years and more were gone since the Noldor came to Beleriand, in the days of the Long Peace, Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond journeyed east of Sirion and went hunting with Maglor and Maedhros, sons of Fëanor."

~ "In a valley among the foothills of the mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song."

~ "Then Felagund, standing silent in the night-shadow of the trees, looked down into the camp, and there he beheld a strange people."

~ “Long Felagund watched them, and love for them stirred in his heart; but he remained hidden in the trees until they had all fallen asleep.”

~ “Now men awoke and listened to Felagund as he harped and sang, and each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played, because of the beauty of the music and the wonder of the song.”

~ “Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled in tongues; and Felagund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted.”

~ "It is said also that these Men had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them, learned much of their speech; and since all the languages of the Quendi were of one origin, the language of Bëor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue in many words and devices."

~ “'A darkness lies behind us,' Bëor said; 'and we have turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire to return thither even in thought. Westwards our hearts have been turned, and we believe that there we shall find Light.'”

~ "To corrupt of destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; and doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand: by fear and lies to make Men the foes of the Eldar, and bring hem up out of the east against Beleriand. But this design was slow to ripen, and was never wholly achieved; for Men (it is said) were at first very few in number, whereas Morgoth grew afraid of the growing power and union of the Eldar and came back to Angband, leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning."

~ "Felagund himself often returned to visit Men; and many other Elves out of the west-lands, both Noldor and Sindar, journeyed to Estolad, being eager to see the Edain, whose coming had long been foretold."

~ "Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers of welcome to them; and then many young and eager men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar."

~ "Melian said nothing to [Thingol] at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'"

~ “But many Men remained in Estolad, and there was still a mingled people living there long years after, until in the ruin of Beleriand they were overwhelmed or fled back into the East. For beside the old who deemed that their wandering days were over there were not a few who desired to go their own ways, and they feared the Eldar and the light of their eyes […].”

~ “'We took long roads, desiring to escape the people of Middle-earth and the dark things that dwell there; for we heard that there was Light in the West. But now we learn that the Light is beyond the Sea. Thither we cannot come where the Gods dwell in bliss. Save one; for the Lord of the Dark is here before us, and the Eldar, wise but fell, who make endless war upon him. In the North he dwells, they say; and there is the pain and death from which we fled. We will not go that way.'”

~ “But Amlach repented, saying: 'I have now a quarrel of my own with this Master of Lies, which will last to my life's end'; and he went away north and entered the service of Maedhros.

~ “But Haleth was proud, and unwilling to be guided or ruled, and most of the Haladin were of like mood. Therefore [Haleth] thanked Caranthir, but answered: 'My mind is now set, lord, to leave the shadow of the mountains, and go west, whither others of our kin have gone.' When therefore the Haladin had gathered all whom they could find alive of their folk who had fled wild into the woods before the Orcs, and had gleaned what remained of their goods in their burned homesteads, they took Haleth for their chief; and she led them at last to Estolad, and there dwelt for a time.”

~ "But they remained a people apart, and were ever after known to Elves and Men as the People of Haleth."

~ “To this Haleth answered: 'Where are Haldad my father, and Haldar my brother? If the King of Doriath fears a friendship between Haleth and those who have devoured her kin, then the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men.'”

~ “Yet many of the Edain had delight in the friendship of the Elves, and dwelt among them for so long as they had leave; and the young men often took service for a time in the hosts of the kings.”

~ "In [Hador's] house only the Elven-tongue was spoken; but their own speech was not forgotten, and from it came the common tongue of Númenor."

~ "All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old."

~ “And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and their hope was high; and Morgoth was straitly enclosed, for the people of Hador, being hardy to endure cold and long wandering, feared not at times to go far into the north and there keep watch upon the movements of the Enemy.”

~ “Nonetheless the Edain of old learned swiftly of the Eldar all such art and knowledge as they could receive, and their sons increased in wisdom and skill, until they far surpassed all others of Mankind, who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar, nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.”


Alternate Versions

~ There is no equivalent to this chapter in the Book of Lost Tales, but some elements can nonetheless be found in “Gilfanon's Tale”. Nuin the Dark Elf's discovery of the sleeping Children of Men (pre-Sun) already shows many features of the later Felagund story: An Elf wandering alone chances across Men; he goes among them and watches them sleep; eventually, he wakes some and teaches them. (1)

~ The outlines for “Gilfanon's Tale” also mention the mortals' learning from the Dark Elves, and the attempts of Morgoth to undermine friendship between Elves and Men (quite succesfully in these drafts). They end with an Ilkorin (= Avarin) migration to the west to join the Gnomes, which may have been recycled for the “Coming of Men into the West”. (2)

~ “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'” briefly mentions that “Men already dwelt in the woods of the North, and Ilkorins also”, but no more than that. Earlier, it already stated that Eldar and Men were “kindred and allies” during the wars against Morgoth. (3)

~ “The Quenta” first describes Felagund's discovery of Men. In this version, Felagund is Celegorm's guest but becomes separated from the other hunters when he sees the lights and hears the sound of the mortal camp. The harp-playing and teaching as well as Bëor's life-long service to Felagund are already as in the final version, but the family-lines are as yet very different. Bëor is the father of Barahir, who “was the greatest friend of the sons of Finrod (=Finarfin)”. Haldad is at that time named Hador; Hador the Golden-haired does not appear. Haleth is male and has a brother named Gumlin, who is the father of Huor and Húrin. There is no mention of Marach or his people. Hador's followers are associated with Fingolfin. (4)

~ “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand” list the birth years of various mortals who appear in this chapter. There are now three houses of Men. Bëor is born in 70, Haleth (still male) in 88, Hádor the Goldenhaired (who takes Marach's place in this version) in 90. In the Year of the Sun 100, Bëor and his people have made their way into Beleriand and encounter Felagund. Bregolas is born as Bëor's son; two years later, Bëor's second son Barahir is born. Haleth and Hádor reach Beleriand in 120. Haleth has a son named Hundor (born 113), who later has a son named Handir (born 141). Gumlin, still father of Húrin and Huor, is now Hádor's son, born in 119. Bëor dies in 150, giving the Eldar occasion to observe the short span of life given to Men. (5)

~ The first description of the outer appearance of the mortal peoples is also in “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”. The Men of Bëor are described as dark or brown of hair, fair of face and grey of eye. They are also “of shapely form”. Interestingly, their courage and endurance are described as “little greater than the Elves of that day” – but greater. The folk of Hádor are blond and blue-eyed, tall and strong. The people of Haleth look much like them (and not the people of Bëor as it is in the Silmarillion, but are shorter and more stout. (5, 122)

~ "The Later Annals of Beleriand" has little changes, apart from shifting back the dates by one hundred years. (6) There is, however, a mention that Hador's house abandons their own tongue, in contrast to the published Silmarillion where it becomes the common language of Númenor. Adûnaic had not yet been concieved, and early drafts have Númenoreans speaking Quenya with a thought to reviving their ancient Mannish language. (6, 220)

~ The "Quenta Silmarillion" does not say which sons of Fëanor Finrod went hunting with and some detail about his finding of Men is added. Finrod's given name of "wisdom" is Widris and "Bëor" is Noldorin in origin. Also, the length of the siege of Angband has been lengthened to nearly four hundred years. (7)

~ The "Grey Annals" has several major changes and additions, as well as several dates being moved around. Gumlin is replaced by Galion and then Galdor. Thingol's dream and Melian's words make their first appearance, as does the people of Hador keeping a watch in the north. Beren's mother is named, and Tuor recieves his title "the Blessed." (8)

~ The chapter "Of the Coming of Men into the West" in the Later Quenta Silmarillion is both the text of the published Silmarillion and a rewrite and expansion of previous drafts. The entry of Men into the West was moved forward by about a hundred years, adding several generations to all the geneologies. Several names appear, among them Haladin and Marach. Haleth the woman leader appears here for the first time; her sex is not merely switched. Haleth the Hunter disappears. (9)

~ The late essay "Of Dwarves and Men" has further information on the three houses of the Edain. Some of it is language-related; the House of Bëor's and Folk of Hador's tongues are related. Some of it is expanded physical description (the Folk of Bëor has darker skin and tend to be shorter and more sturdily built than the Folk of Hador). The Folk of Haleth's language is unrelated to the others. The Haladin also have an ancient custom of women warriors (Haleth herself has a bodyguard comprised of women). (10)

~ Similarly, the drafts for “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” note a tradition of wise-women among Men, naming especially Andreth of the House of Bëor and Adanel of the House of Hador. Note 11 to the “Athrabeth” offers some insight into the “Darkness” that Men left behind and that Bëor does not want to talk or even think about: In their earliest days, Men were able to communicate directly with Eru, but then Morgoth came among them, offering more knowledge and other gifts. Men began to worship Morgoth and built him a Temple. Morgoth rewarded especially the cruel among Men, and those who did not worship Morgoth were persecuted and often cruelly murdered out of fear that Morgoth would punish them all. However, it is to be noted that this information (supposedly told to Andreth by Adanel) is said in Note 9 to be the result of Númenorean revisions of the “original” material presented in the “Athrabeth”, so it is not clear whether this is supposed to be actual history, or whether it is meant to reflect the corruption of the Númenoreans by Sauron. (11)


Food for Thought

~ Felagund's discovery and teaching of Men rather parallels Oromë's time in Cuiviénen. Accidental or intentional?

~ If the mortals learned rumours of the “Light in the West” from the Dark Elves, who refused the summons to the West themselves, why are Men so keen to reach it?

~ The Green-elves declare their “unfriendship” with Men because they are “hewers of trees and hunters of beasts”. Do you take that to mean that the Green-elves are Vegetarians (or even Fruitarians), or are they merely worried about resources they themselves want to use?

~ Thingol is offended because nobody but Felagund consults with him before taking mortals into their service. He lays down rather strict terms, especially in making the Eldarin lords responsible for anything their mortal servants do. Later, he wants to deny Haleth's people the apparently empty forest of Brethil. Do you think Thingol is just trying to get everyone's attention, or is he (again) afraid for his authority?

~ Do you find the arguments of Bereg and Amlach (or even Morgoth's spy posing as Amlach) really all that unreasonable, let alone evil?

~ Is there any significance to the fact that Haleth never married?

~ What do you think the culture and customs surrounding the women warriors were like? Do you regret the lack of existence and knowledge of the women warriors in the published Silmarillion?

~ What may have prompted Tolkien to change his mind about Haleth's gender?

~ After decades in which mortals appear to have lived wherever they saw fit in the Elven realms, answering directly to Elven lords and mingling freely with their Elven neighbours, the Elves suddenly decided that it was better to keep mortals separate unless they had express leave to live with and work for an Eldarin prince for a while. Do you think this was a wise move? Is it fair to see parallels to the Apartheid system here?

~ Do you think the Elves had any right to appoint mortal leaders whom the other mortals should follow?

~ Do you think the decision for segregation may have been motivated by the observation that mortals age and die – to spare the Eldar the sight of elderly people (or spare aged mortals the sight of their unaging neighbours), or even to minimise the risk of strong attachments between mortals and Elves (as in the case of Aegnor and Andreth)?

~ Do you find the family trees in the back of The Silmarillion essential for keeping track of who is related to whom? Or are they too incomplete to help?


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 1. Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind. “The Awakening of Men according to the earlier outlines”.
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 1. Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind. “The Awakening of Men according to the later outline”.
(3) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 8 & 9.
(4) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Quenta”, 9.
(5) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”, 70-150, 155.
(6) The Lost Road, "The Later Annals of Beleriand," 170-250, 256, Note to 220
(7) The Lost Road, "Quenta Silmarillion," 10 Of Dwarves and Men, §126-131
(8) The War of the Jewels, "The Grey Annals," §121-144 and Commentary
(9) The War of the Jewels "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," 14 Of the Coming of Men into the West
(10) The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, "Of Dwarves and Men," The Atani and their Languages
(11) Morgoth's Ring. “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth”, Notes 9 and 11.


Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin” is due August 24.

Comments

[samtyr.livejournal.com]

~ The Green-elves declare their “unfriendship” with Men because they are “hewers of trees and hunters of beasts”. Do you take that to mean that the Green-elves are Vegetarians (or even Fruitarians), or are they merely worried about resources they themselves want to use?

--Re-reading that now, I am left with the idea that the Green-elves have more of a Native American (if you will) approach to the trees and animals, in which they give thanks to the animal (or tree) for giving their life so that the hunters and their people can live on.

The same might well apply to their (Men's) approach to harvesting trees. It sounds as if they simply cut down whatever they could find, without any thought to whether or not the trees have any importance.

Also, the Green-elves might be working with the Ents, helping to plant more trees in a certain area where they are of the most use. If Men just come in and tear up the new seedlings/young trees without any thought to what they are doing, then that might give them (Green-elves) a more solid reason for disliking them.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I like this. I have always thought that the Green-elves' problem might have been that they are used to managing their own hunting/hewing very carefully, while Men do not.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

That's a good explanation!

To be fair though, even if Men did manage their own hunting and hewing equally carefully, it would pose a problem to the Green-elves, simply because it's interfering with their own resource use...

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Well, it *might*, if the forest's resources were stretched to their utmost.

I can imagine a situation where there are only two Elves and two Men living in a huge forest, where there is plenty of food & timber to go around. Still, the Men insist on, say, cutting down swathes of young trees, leaving large clearings and changing the forest landscape. This could be annoying.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. But what I mean is, aren't we being unfair by (more or less automatically) assuming that these Men are mismanaging the resources? Maybe they aren't. Maybe they also do very careful planning. Maybe they're really conscientuous about resource use, keeping the natural balance in mind and apologising to every single tree spirit they may have upset. Maybe they're doing nothing wrong, except they aren't coordinating their own needs with the Green-elves.

I mean, those "eco-saintly" Native Americans are mortal Men too, last time I heard about them. ;)

In short, maybe the Green-elves are at fault (or at least not right), not the mortals?

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Sure, that works too. I am not particularly bound to any particular interpenetration.

Maybe the Men were better at resource management that the elveselves, and the elves got jealous.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Totally the way I read it.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I agree with the suggestion that the separation of Elves and Men might have been done for emotional reasons (before I even read that comment I was going to post something frivolous about all the frustrating Man/Elf love.)

On the whole, however, I do get an icky colonial vibe from the interaction of the two groups. Even from Finrod (although he does go native, a little.)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

On the whole, however, I do get an icky colonial vibe from the interaction of the two groups. Even from Finrod (although he does go native, a little.)

Yes, same here. Not sure Tolkien meant for it to come across that way (though I suppose he might not necessarily have found anything wrong with colonial attitudes...), but there's a lot in this chapter that makes me uncomfortable.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I got the vibe; I also doubt he found it icky in the way I do.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It interests me that in his earliest writings Tolkien was clear that humans were taller and stronger than Elves, as well as having more endurance.

After the departure of Eärendel (...) Men spread and thrive, and the Elves of the Great Lands fade. As Men's stature grows theirs diminishes. Men and Elves were formerly of a size, though Men always larger.

Now there is a sally from the gates of Gondolin and a throng comes about those twain in wonder(...) marvelling at the stature and the gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp. Rugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skins of bears. 'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there.

(Both quotes from the Book of Lost Tales)

If the Edain were bigger and stronger and mightier than the Elves, it's little wonder that the Noldor welcomed their assistance against Morgoth and were keen to ally with them, and that human heroes played such a prominent role in the events of the Silmarillion.

But later on Tolkien decided to make Elves taller and stronger and more powerful and generally superior to humans in all ways, but without changing the basic outline of the plot. That rather changes the dynamics of why the Elves wanted to ally with them, and I think makes it less satisfying as a story.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Thank you for bringing this up, because it completely slipped my mind! Yes, originally Men were taller and (physically) stronger than the Elves. I assume that Tolkien changed that detail because he wanted to remove his Elves as far as possible from the dainty, fairy-like Elves of legend as he grew more confident in his own legendarium. But I agree with you that the "high hope" of the Eldar when mortals joined their ranks makes more sense if the mortals are, well, superior in some militarily relevant way. Now, with the overall-superior Elves, it's harder to understand why they considered the Edain - more frail and bound to die - such an asset. The only idea I have is that there were a lot of them and that they reproduced quickly and in great numbers, too. (The uglier idea is "cannon fodder"...)

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The biggest problem for the Eldar in Beleriand would probably have been their slow rate of reproduction, compared to Morgoth's apparent ability to churn out Orcs on production lines (or possibly by the litter). So Men would fill a large hole in Elvish strategy - fast-breeding, intelligent, good fighters while still being socialisable, really quite presentable once they have been cleaned up and taught manners.

"Cannon fodder" is a bit rude. "Valuable, amusing livestock, to be cultivated and not to be wasted" would probably have been the attitude of quite a lot of Elves. I suspect that Finrod was noted among Elves as a friend of Men precisely because he was eccentric enough to engage with Men as if they were real people. That attitude would also account for Thingol's overreaction to Beren: his sensible, powerful, grown-up daughter suddenly goes off her head and takes up with a furry sub-human, of course he was upset.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, "cannon fodder" is rude. But I don't really see how "lifestock", "as if they were real people", or "furry sub-human" are better? Whatever the attitude behind it, those Eldar very quickly reach uncanny territory!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, I was joking. I found that chapter very telling, and a useful reminder that the Silmarillion is being told from a non-human viewpoint.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Non-human, and just generally biased... always important to remember, you're right!

[hhimring]

Thingol is somewhat of an extreme case--after all he apparently has never seen any of the Edain before Beren and, in fact, has explicitly refused to meet any.
Fingon actually gives up his own fief of Dor-lomin to the House of Hador. Admittedly, he was apparently spending most of his time in Barad Eithel, not in Dor-lomin, but he does seem to be ready to invest in the Edain. Also, while it's a fanon that he didn't value the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin that he gave to Hador, I suspect that Tolkien views it as a significant case of gift-giving.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Indeed. My own view is that the Dragon-helm was a very serious present, and understood as such by both sides.

There's the religious angle as well. The Elves knew that there would be Secondborn, and I think that once they understood that Men were they, and not just new, clever animals, the attitudes towards them would change somewhat (though possibly along the lines of "what was Eru thinking?"

[hhimring]

With all possible "colonial" angles, I think one should not forget that the Edain walk into this situation on their own two feet--they are neither the native inhabitants of Beleriand nor deported slaves and none of the Elves try to stop those who decide to leave again from leaving. For later generations, obviously this is going to look a bit different.

As far as the ecosystem of Ossiriand is concerned, they are upsetting a balance just by virtue of being there--but how big the disturbance actually is is hard to gage.

I think (or rather I have my version of Maedhros say) that at first the Elves felt Men were much more like them than Dwarves and only subsequently discovered how far-reaching the differences were. It is not just the Elves who express reservations about proximity--there is also Sador in CoH and, in her own particular fashion, Andreth.

Unless one assumes that the accounts are thoroughly skewed, the Elves do seem to pick the leaders for the new settlements in Ladros and Dor-lomin from the established leading families, at any rate.

As for Haleth, it's interesting I guess that the late date of her change of gender brings her closer in date to Eowyn. It seems to me to be often overlooked that although she is a female hero(!), like Eowyn's, her choices aren't portrayed in an entirely positive light. Whatever the merit of rebuffing Caranthir, she apparently got a lot of her people killed on the road to Brethil by not asking for help, then once she got there, she had to rely on Finrod's assistance with Thingol anyway.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

the Elves do seem to pick the leaders for the new settlements in Ladros and Dor-lomin from the established leading families, at any rate.

Conservation of attention. If they already have their own leaders, with whom they seem satisfied, there's no need to waste time and energy in trying to work with different people.

[hhimring]

I'm not saying that there isn't a great deal of pragmatism involved!

[independence1776]

I think (or rather I have my version of Maedhros say) that at first the Elves felt Men were much more like them than Dwarves and only subsequently discovered how far-reaching the differences were.

This makes a lot of sense to me. The Eldar pretty much didn't know anything about Men beforehand, and with them both being basically human and thus looking like each other, it made it far easier to see the similarities at first. (Which make me wonder about Avarin-Men relations, but there's no way to know anything about that, so it's neither here nor there.)

Haleth: good point about her actions not being portrayed entirely positively. (Though Eowyn's have other things involved than simple disapproval. Sorry! I seem to view her in a somewhat different light than most of fandom.)

[hhimring]

I actually think what Tolkien is doing with Eowyn is rather complex and in some ways contradictory. Haleth is treated much more briefly, obviously, but I didn't mean to say that Tolkien necessarily was showing simple disapproval of her at any point either. She's probably (in Tolkien's view) right to rebuff Caranthir--while I don't think he is supposed to have any insidious Feanorian designs on the Haladin (as per some older fan fic that I have read), that would probably have turned out to be an unlucky association. It's more as if Tolkien is saying that independence is a good goal, but pursued exclusively may sometimes come at too great a price. Also, the fate of the Haladin (as opposed to the House of Hador) seems at all times to be predicated on their being a small group: liable to be overlooked, non-involvement in larger affairs feasible and perhaps advisable, etc.

[independence1776]

I actually think what Tolkien is doing with Eowyn is rather complex and in some ways contradictory.

I'm not even sure about that! Complex, yes, but I don't see the contradictory aspects.

It's more as if Tolkien is saying that independence is a good goal, but pursued exclusively may sometimes come at too great a price.

That's the general read I got from it, too. And it didn't really seem to be gender-based that she acted as she did (though one never truly knows).

I definitely agree she did good rebuffing Caranthir, just from sheer association.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I think one should not forget that the Edain walk into this situation on their own two feet

Initially, yes - but by the time the Eldar decided that it was better for Men to stick to themselves apart from the Eldar (except for young mortals working for the latter by express permission!), generations of Men have been living in Beleriand wherever. So it is the later generations we're looking at, not the people who marched in there on their own two feet.

how big the disturbance actually is is hard to gage.

It really is.

Good point about the Elves not initially realising how close, yet how far mortals were from them. (Of course, Dwarves aren't immortal either...)

Yes, the difference probably isn't that great (more like "You no longer answer directly to Lord Felagund (or whoever) but to your local mortal leader"). But it still reads as if the Eldar make all the decisions. Even if they only make common practice official. I know, I know, very modern whining!

As for Haleth, it's interesting I guess that the late date of her change of gender brings her closer in date to Eowyn.

Ooh, interesting point. (But all the more reason to give us more information on the women warriors, damn it, if they might be related to the Rohirric shieldmaiden tradition! Grumble.)

It seems to me to be often overlooked that although she is a female hero(!), like Eowyn's, her choices aren't portrayed in an entirely positive light.

Is that something that gets overlooked? I couldn't help noticing this, and have always been wondering whether (some of) her choices are portrayed as mistakes because she's a woman (like, if a guy does it, it's independence and determination, but if a girl does it, it's foolish and stubborn?), or whether she just happens to be a woman who (also) makes mistakes. But that's probably something that could be discussed indefinitely!

she had to rely on Finrod's assistance with Thingol anyway.

Well, to be fair, nobody's got a chance against Thingol! It's a miracle Finrod can convince him to make any concessions.

[hhimring]

...more like "You no longer answer directly to Lord Felagund (or whoever) but to your local mortal leader"). ..

Or perhaps alternatively:
"Ok, Hador/Boromir, enough with the confusion and disputes over legal grey areas--you make your people toe the line and I'll back you up."

Because I bet they never had actually stopped answering to their local mortal leaders.

Also, the reproduction rate already mentioned. It is possible that this later sorting out of command structures and settlement patterns has at least partly to do with population growth, which apparently there was. A few stray settlers can be accommodated pretty much anywhere, but a growing population might need a more solid legal framework.

[zopyrus.livejournal.com]

With all possible "colonial" angles, I think one should not forget that the Edain walk into this situation on their own two feet--they are neither the native inhabitants of Beleriand nor deported slaves and none of the Elves try to stop those who decide to leave again from leaving. For later generations, obviously this is going to look a bit different.

This is definitely true! At the same time, it doesn't change how I feel reading text on a meta level, knowing that it was created by a guy who probably bought in to the idea of some cultures being inherently more worthwhile than others--Finrod "teaching" Bëor's people how to make music on their own harps is an example of something that probably wouldn't have happened quite so innocently in real history. (Likewise, I find it hard to believe that Hador's family voluntarily gave up speaking their own language in favor of Elvish, just because they recognized it was superior?)

[hhimring]

I'm not pretending there aren't all sorts of worrying issues there.
I think Tolkien did buy into the idea of some cultures being inherently more worthwhile than others, but he did not do so quite unreservedly and not all the time (one of the reasons why he invented the Druedain, probably).
As for Hador's family, I read that a bit differently. It looks to me as if, from Aradan's time onwards, the family had been living mostly in Barad Eithel, where they would obviously become fluent in Sindarin--then in Dor-lomin, they are reunited with those of the House of Marach who had been living in the Ered Wethrin, led there by Magor, had less contact with Elves, and were predominantly Adunaic-speaking. So they become bilingual. The main issue for me in that is the potential social distance it creates within the Hadorians--foreshadowing the later linguistic divide in Numenor.
But for the point you were making, I worry more about the Beorians, who seem to give up Taliska altogether (if that is what they do, HoME appears to be a bit confusing on this subject).