SWG Reread: "Of the Ruin of Doriath"

[independence1776]

Of the Ruin of Doriath

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion! (Again, this post is much shorter than last time!)

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine to jump in, even if you haven’t participated in previous discussions. We don’t bite!


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Summary

Morgoth has held Húrin captive for twenty-eight years. He feigns pity and releases him, secretly hoping that he will further spread hatred. Húrin knows Morgoth is without pity, but he is bitter. Húrin is released as one held in Morgoth’s high regard, and thus the Easterlings leave him alone in his wanderings, but for the same reason, the remnants of his people do not trust him.

He eventually leaves Hithlum and heads to Gondolin. He finds the wall of rock blocking the entrance. Thorondor spies him there and brings word to Turgon. Turgon believes that Húrin has surrendered to Morgoth’s will and refuses to allow him passage. He later repents of this decision and sends the Eagles to find him, but Turgon is too late: Húrin has vanished. However, before he left, Húrin cried aloud to Turgon, thus alerting Morgoth of the region where Gondolin lies. This is the first evil that Húrin’s freedom achieved.

At dawn that night, after having a dream where he heard Morwen speaking to him out of Brethil, Húrin travels there. The guards do not hinder his passage as they think he is a ghost. He travels to where his children died, and spies Morwen sitting in the stone marker’s shadow. They greet each other and she informs him that she is dying. He refuses to speak when she asks how Nienor found Túrin. She dies at sundown. Húrin buries her on the west side of the stone, carves her name into the stone, and departs on a quest of vengeance. A seer says that the Stone of the Hapless will not fall or be defiled by Morgoth, and it supposedly still stands alone in the water after Beleriand’s destruction.

Húrin heads to Nargothrond, where Mîm the Petty-Dwarf now lives, having taken possession of the treasure there. No one else has dared to come there out of memory and fear of Glaurung. They introduce themselves and Húrin slays Mîm due to his betrayal of Túrin. Húrin stays there a short while and brings only one item of treasure with him when he leaves.

Húrin then travels to Doriath, where Thingol receives him with high honor. But Húrin is bitter and casts the Nauglamír (Finrod’s Dwarven necklace) at Thingol’s feet, calling it payment for the safekeeping of his children and wife. Thingol recognizes it and refuses to become angry. Melian releases Húrin from Morgoth’s spell. He now sees the truth of things, rather than the twists, and retrieves the Nauglamír, this time offering it to Thingol properly as a gift and memorial. Húrin then leaves Menegroth, and he eventually casts himself into the sea.

Thingol sits long upon his throne with the Nauglamír on his lap. He eventually decides that it should be recast to hold the Silmaril. Over the years, the Silmaril has grown upon his mind and he now carries it with him constantly.

Dwarves still come to Menegroth and live there. They have their own chambers apart from the Elves. However, they now travel in large groups for safety. Thingol commissions them to remake the Nauglamír to hold the Silmaril. The Dwarves see both the craft of their fathers and the wonder of the Silmaril, and desire to possess both. They agree, and Thingol alone visits them in their smithies while they work on it.

Eventually the task is done, and the Nauglamír reflects the beauty of the Silmaril. Thingol moves to put it on, but the Dwarves refuse to give it to him, saying he has no right to the Nauglamír. Thingol gives no heed to his precarious position and orders them out of Doriath for the insult. The Dwarves kill him. They flee Menegroth, taking the Nauglamír with them. They are swiftly pursued and all but two are killed. The Nauglamír is returned to Melian. The Dwarves who escaped return to Nogrod and stir up the people to vengeance. They seek for Belegost’s help and are refused. Nonetheless, a great army leaves Nogrod.

Melian sits beside Thingol’s body and she spends her time thinking about the past and grieving. She removes the Girdle of Melian that has been keeping Doriath safe. She speaks only to Mablung, telling him to take care for the Silmaril and to send word to Beren and Lúthien. She then departs for Valinor.

This allows the Dwarves to pass into Doriath unhindered. They fight the Elves in Menegroth and many on both sides are killed. But the Dwarves are victorious, killing Mablung and taking the Silmaril.

At this time, Beren and Lúthien live in Tol Galen, with their son Dior and his wife Nimloth, who is kinswoman to Celeborn. They have three grandchildren: Eluréd, Elurín, and Elwing. Hearing the tidings of the Dwarves, Beren and Dior leave Tol Galen, and they bring many Green-elves of Ossiriand with them. They waylay the Dwarves, though some escape. Those Dwarves are killed by the Ents. Beren kills the Lord of Nogrod and wrests the Nauglamír from him. The Dwarf lays a curse on the treasure. Beren washes the necklace clean in the river, and the rest of the treasure stays in the river, leading to its new name Rathlóriel the Goldenbed. Beren takes the necklace with him and it goes little to assuage Lúthien’s grief to know that the Dwarves are dead. However, due to Lúthien’s wearing the necklace, their land becomes like a vision of Valinor.

Dior, being Thingol’s heir, bids his parents farewell and travels with his wife and children to Doriath. The Sindar are glad to receive them and Dior believes he will renew the Sindar’s lands.

One night in autumn, a Green-elf arrives with a coffer. He gives it to Dior and leaves. He opens the coffer to find the Nauglamír and knows that his parents are dead. He puts the necklace on.

The rumor of it spreads through Beleriand, and it brings the scattered sons of Fëanor together, waking their oath. (No one would dare assail Lúthien while she wore it.) They send a message to Dior demanding the Silmaril. He does not reply. Celegorm stirs up his brothers to attack and they do so in the middle of winter. Dior kills Celegorm. Curufin and Caranthir die also. So do Dior and Nimloth. Celegorm’s servants carry Eluréd and Elurín into the woods and leave them there. Maedhros tries to find them, but is not successful. No one knows what happened to them.

But the Fëanorians are not successful-- some residents were able to escape, taking the Silmaril and Elwing with them. They settle by the sea at the mouths of the Sirion.

Our Favorite Quotes

~ “In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he hated them, and feared them.”

~ “Then Húrin looked up to the grey sky, thinking that he might once more descry the earles, as he had done long ago in his youth; but he saw only the shadows blown from the east, and clouds swirling about the inaccessible peaks, and he heard only the wind hissing over the stones.”

~ “'It was a dark road. I have come as I could.'”

~ “He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. 'She was not conquered', he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat unmoving beside her as the night drew down.”

~ “'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men; and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfill the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'”

~ “'Húrin Thalion, Morgoth hath bewitched thee; for he that seeth through Morgoth’s eyes, willingly or unwillingly, seeth all things crooked. […] With the voice of Morgoth thou dost now upbraid thy friends.'”

~ “For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his innermost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.”

~ “So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, along of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor, with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.”

~ “Then Beren gazed in wonder on the selfsame jewel of Fëanor that he had cut from Morgoth’s iron crown, now shining set amid gold and gems by the cunning of the Dwarves; and he washed it clean in the waters of the river.”

~ “But it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.”

~ “There came a night of autumn, and when it grew late one came and smote upon the doors of Menegroth, demanding admittance to the King. He was a lord of the Green-elves hastening from Ossiriand, and there in silence he gave to the King a coffer, and took his leave.”

~ “Long did Dior gaze upon the Silmaril, which his father and mother had brought beyond hope out of the terror of Morgoth; and his grief was great that death had come upon them so soon. But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.”

~ “For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior’s pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.”

~ “But the sons of Fëanor gained not what they sought; for a remnant of the people fled before them, and with them was Elwing Dior’s daughter, and they escaped, and bearing with them the Silmaril they came in time to the mouths of the River Sirion by the sea.”

Alternate Versions

~ Whereas the House of Ransom element is completely absent from the earliest drafts, Mîm makes his appearance in the ruins of Nargothrond from the very beginning. Úrin (Húrin), who has after his release gathered outlaws around him, initially declares that he shall take from Mîm whatever is not his, but when Mîm claims that only he can ward all the treasure which he has bound to himself with enchantments, the outlaws grow angry and try to seize all. Mîm breaks into curses. Úrin now slays Mîm, declaring that he will now take even what is Mîm's, including his life. With his last breath, Mîm further curses the treasure and declares that every part shall share the fate of the whole. Nonetheless, Úrin and his outlaws take everything with them. (1)

~ The fact that Úrin is not alone, but surrounded by outlaws, begets further problems. The outlaws want to keep the cursed gold (in fact, possessiveness is one aspect of the curse). Úrin forces them to bring it to Tinwelint (Thingol). He has the gold cast at Tinwelint's feet and insults him. Tinwelint, offended, sends Úrin away. (1)

~ “Turambar and the Foalókë” also narrates how Mavwin (Morwen) comes to the woodmen and finds the marker on Túrin's grave. Apparently, she cannot read, but the woodmen read the runes to her and tell her the story of Túrin and Nienóri. When the woodmen see her grief and say that it is indeed a story to move anyone to pity, she introduces herself. She haunts the place afterwards, causing the woodmen to flee and never return. Later, Úrin finds her there. They mourn and haunt the woods together. The Elves of Kôr (Tirion) say that they eventually passed to Mandos. (1)

~ The Elves of Kôr also know about the fate of Turambar and Nienóri: Turambar's spirit followed Nienóri's spirit to Mandos, but neither Fui (Nienna) nor Véfantur (Námo) would open the door for them. However, Manwë had pity on them. He sent them through the Bath of Flame where they were purged and afterwards became Valar themselves, “and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair”. (1)

~ “The Nauglafring” continues the tale. When Úrin is sent away from Artanor (Doriath), the other outlaws remain behind and demand their share of the treasure. Tinwelint grants them as much as they can carry in their hands, but they keep coming back for more. The Elves want to stop them so the outlaws draw their swords. Tinwelint wants to keep the peace, but eventually has to call on his warriors. The outlaws are killed and the gold is drenched in blood. Gwenniel (Melian) recommends that Tinwelint throw it away. He agrees, but wants to see it all cleaned and laid out before him first. When this is done, the curse of Mîm falls upon him and he is no longer willing to part with the gold. A Gnome in his halls who has dwelt among the Dwarves for a while, Ufedhin, beguiles Tinwelint with promises of dwarf-made treasure. He insists that the Dwarves would happily remake that gold for Tinwelint at a very low price, simply for the glory of working with it. Tinwelint eventually agrees, but he trusts neither Ufedhin nor the Dwarves. He keeps Ufedhin and his folk as hostages, causing much resentment. The Dwarves who come to Tinwelint's realm make wonderful things: a golden crown, a glorious helmet, a damasked sword, a mail-coat of steel and gold, a golden belt, diamond-encrusted slippers for Gwenniel and many other prizeless treasures. At last, Tinwelint gives them permission to create a carcanet in which they set the Silmaril: the Nauglafring. Because the Dwarves are angry at being kept in Artanor all this time, the curse of Mîm is increased in the Nauglafring. Tinwelint reminds the Dwarves that they promised to work for very little pay. Instead, they ask for many valuable things. Because Ufedhin is resentful at having been kept hostage, he has also advised them to ask for an Elven maid to accompany each Dwarf, and for seven strong Elven men to work as servants for seven times seven years. Tinwelint cannot accept this. He has the Dwarves and Ufedhin whipped, and afterwards pays them like common smiths of bronze or iron; he also keeps some of their pay for the keep of Ufedhin. Then he sends them away. (2)

~ As if the Dwarves of Nogrod weren't already angry enough, they now receive messengers from Bodruith of Belegost and learn that all the gold in Tinwelint's halls belonged to a Dwarf – Mîm. A woodland Elf who has also fallen under Mîm's curse promises to lead them through the girdle of enchantment that protects Artanor (Doriath). The Dwarves attack on the day that Tinwelint's folk commemorate the wolf-hunt for Karkaras (Carcharoth) with a mock-hunt. Gwenniel has forebodings of doom and speaks about them with her maid Nielthi. She knows that her forebodings are true when she finds Ufedhin seated on Tinwelint's throne. She threatens Ufedhin with Tinwelint's wrath, but at that, the Dwarf-leader Naugladur enters, wearing the Nauglafring and holding Tinwelint's crowned and helmeted head in his hands. Ufedhin wants to seize Gwenniel, but she creates a sudden darkness and disappears. (2)

~ In this early version, Beren and Lúthien learn about the death of Tinwelint from Húan (who did not die, but continue to hunt with Mablung). Meanwhile, there is struggle among the victorious Dwarves: Ufedhin tries to stab Naugladur at night, coveting the Nauglafring, but as it was dark, he instead killed Bodruith. Naugladur believes that Bodruith tried to steal the necklace, and that one of his guards killed him in time, but nobody remembers having done this. There is a lot of confusion in which Ufedhin escapes. He comes across Beren's rangers and pretends to be an escaped prisoner of the Dwarves. Beren and his rangers waylay the Dwarves and kill them. The Nauglafring is taken from Naugladur before his body is cast into the river Aros. Beren gives it to Tinúviel. Ufedhin is rewarded for having alerted Beren to the whereabouts of the Dwarves. To his misfortune, Gwenniel soon reaches the woods. Ufedhin flees. Gwenniel is angry to see Tinúviel wearing the Nauglafring, saying that it is cursed. Beren believes that the Silmaril is holy enough to burn the curse away. Tinúviel would cast the Nauglafring away since it upsets her mother, but Beren keeps it safe. It is said that the curse of Mîm hastens the death of Beren and Tinúviel. It is also said that they now hunt in the gardens of Oromë together. (2)

~ Dior has only two children, Auredhir and Elwing. Elwing commonly wears the Nauglafring. Maidros sends Curufin to Dior, asking for the Silmaril. Dior says that he does not want to destroy the Nauglafring. Curufin therefore asks for the entire Nauglafring. Dior declares that there are two more Silmarils in Melko's crown, and Curufin is welcome to get those. Curufin returns to his brothers, and they plan an attack on Dior: “the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk” (at this time, the Kinslaying at Alqualondë had not yet been conceived). Dior and Auredhir are killed, as are Maglor, Celegorm, Cranthor (Caranthir) and Dinithel (later, one of the twins). Elwing is saved by her nurse Evranin and the Gnome Gereth, who also take the Nauglafring. The surviving Elves neither want to follow Maidros, because he is maimed, nor Damrod (who later becomes the other twin) and Curufin, because they have slain Dior. It is said that this battle took place on the same day that Melko attacked Gondolin. (2)

~ In “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'”, many details from the first drafts are lost, although the narrative on the whole follows the events in “Turambar and the Foalókë” and “The Nauglafring”. Thingol now has a little more patience with Húrin before sending him away. The Dwarves receive no paiment at all. Huan is no longer alive; Melian tells Beren and Lúthien about Thingol's death. Lúthien fades; Beren is lost searching for her. There is no more talk about the gardens of Oromë. (3)

~ Surprisingly, the attack of the sons of Fëanor on Dior – now the second Kinslaying – is successful in this version: They take the Nauglafring. However, because of the various curses upon the gold, they quarrel over it until only Maglor is left alive. Elwing is nonetheless saved from the ruin of Doriath. She appears to be an only child. (3)

~ According to “The Quenta”, Húrin tried to stop his outlaws from slaying Mîm, but did not succeed. Thingol now bears Húrin's scorn until Húrin himself grows tired and leaves. Húrin no longer finds Morwen; instead, it is said that he eventually casts himself into the western sea. (4)

~ In “The Quenta”, Thingol is initially willing to pay the Dwarves, but not as much as he promised. There is fighting, and people are killed on either side. The surviving Dwarves are then sent away without any reward at all. (4)

~ This version returns to the idea that several sons of Fëanor (now Celegorm, Curufin and Cranthir) die in the attack on Doriath, and that the Nauglafring is saved together with Elwing, who again has no siblings. (4)

~ “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand” note that no certain facts about Húrin's and Morwen's fate are known. Húrin disappears from Doriath—and the records — in 200. It also becomes unknown how Beren and Lúthien end; all that is known is that in 202, the Nauglafring is brought to Dior, who wears it on his breast. He rebuilds Doriath, but it no longer has the protection of Melian, who returns to Valinor. Dior has three children. The boys Elboron and Elbereth are slain by Maidros' servants in 206, although Maidros “bewails the foul deed”. The link between the second Kinslaying and the Fall of Gondolin is invoked again. However, this time it isn't stated that the two battles take place on the same day, but that Maeglin is captured in the hills, leading to his betrayal of Gondolin. (5)

~ The “Later Annals of Beleriand” has two significant changes. Beren and Lúthien’s deaths are now in 303 (503 after the expansion of years). The other change is that Maidros’ men abandon Dior’s sons in the woods rather than outright kill them. (6)

~ “The Wanderings of Húrin” was originally part of “The Grey Annals”, but they were somehow separated and lost during JRR Tolkien’s lifetime. It is a brief manuscript that ends in the middle of Annal 502. However, another text-- much expanded in length-- was written no earlier than the late 1950s, entitled “The Wanderings of Húrin.” Apart from Húrin’s attempt to reach Gondolin and his meeting with Morwen, the text is excluded from the published Silmarillion as Christopher deemed it too complex to easily summarize. It also failed to reach JRR Tolkien's stated goal of dealing with the Dwarven necklace and it being the "woe of Thingol." (7)

~ In this text, many new characters appear and it deals primarily with the Men of Brethil after the events of Túrin’s death. Húrin falls in with a band of outlaws directly after his release from Morgoth, but he sneaks away from them to visit Gondolin. Knowing that he plans to visit Brethil, the outlaws head there, where they are captured, and then-- when the chieftain finds out about Húrin-- thrust from the land, in punishment for Túrin’s slaying of Brandir. They do not meet up with Húrin to warn him about the Haladan’s hostility. After meeting Morwen, Húrin is taken to the chieftain and ends up in prison after casting a stool at his head. Rumors spread, and much of the population comes to the town. Húrin must be judged by other than the chieftain, for the chieftain cannot judge a matter in which he himself is involved. A moot is called and Húrin is brought forth. One of his enemies among the Haladin is chosen as the judge, but Húrin nevertheless is set free. He then names his errand: to visit the graves of his children, where he surprisingly reunited with his dying wife, who the chieftain had given no shelter to. The chieftain and his men attempt to flee from the moot, and a battle is fought over it. They manage to flee to the fortified hall, which is burned down when they will not leave. The chieftain dies when he attempts to use a back door to escape. Húrin’s sole friend then discovers the circumstances of Morwen’s death, proving the chieftain’s innocence. Morwen is buried, but Húrin’s friend is killed by the last of the chieftain's men. Húrin is warned to stay away from other people so his dark shadow does not bring doom upon them. This is the end of the expanded material. (7)

~ “The Tale of Years” is a document that lists the chronology and the major events happening in that year, agreeing closely with “The Grey Annals.” It is the only post-LotR source for events happening in the last century or so of the First Age and was written in the late 1950s. The first version is based on the “Later Annals of Beleriand.” (8)

~ The second version has several changes. In 503, Melian takes the Nauglamír to Lúthien, and Celegorm and Curufin defeat the Dwarves. In 505 (as opposed to 503), Beren and Lúthien die. The Second Kinslaying happens in 509. (8)

~ The third version is completely rewritten. Húrin is released in 501 and seizes Glaurung’s treasure in Nargothrond. It is now explicit in 503 that Melian returns to Valinor after giving the Silmaril to Lúthien. This is also the year when Beren and Lúthien die. The Second Kinslaying remains in 509 (after briefly being in 511), but it does not say who left Eluréd and Elurín in the woods. (8)

~ The final version has more detail in its entries. Húrin brings the treasure to Thingol in 501. The Nauglamír is formed from Nargothrond's treasure in 502. Dior returns to Doriath with the Silmaril and Melian returns to Valinor in 504. In 505, Maedhros restrains his brothers from attacking and sends a message to Doriath. At Yule (so 506-507), the Fëanorians attack Doriath. Dior kills Celegorm. The servants of Celegorm now abandon Dior’s sons in the wood (it’s stated that some think the birds succored them and led them to Ossiriand). Lady Lindis escapes with Elwing and the Silmaril to Ossiriand, and then flees again to the Havens of Sirion. However, Tolkien wrote “cannot” next to the story about the Dwarves due to the Girdle of Melian. (Maeglin is now captured in 509.) (8)

~ In Letter 247, written in 1963, Tolkien says that the Ents helped retrieve the stolen goods from the Dwarves who had sacked Doriath, thus reverting to the earlier narrative. (9)

~ At the end of “The Tale of Years” is a long note describing Christopher Tolkien’s difficulties in creating a cohesive narrative for this chapter. There are significant details that do not match up between versions-- Thingol’s characterization, among others. In order to make the chapter as coherent as possible, Christopher had Húrin take only the Nauglamír to Menegroth (the Nauglamír itself already existing rather than being created later), returned Beren to the battle against the Dwarves at the river, added the Ents, and shifted Melian’s role to remove her Girdle to better accommodate the Dwarven army, among other changes. He says that at the time, this was the best solution to the lack of material, but that he now feels he overstepped his bounds and that a better solution without as much tampering could have been found. (10)


Food for Thought

~ Where do you think Galadriel and Celeborn were during the events of this chapter?

~ Do you believe the Silmarils have addictive properties, similar to the One Ring? Is the same true for the Nauglamír?

~ Why do you think Melian left Middle-earth? Do you believe she was right to do so? In the HoME versions, do you think she thought the Silmaril would have been protection enough for Doriath?

~ What do you think about Christopher’s editorial revamping of Melian’s role?

~ Do you think Dior is mortal or immortal?

~ Why do you think Dior didn’t reply to the Fëanorians? Would you prefer to have kept the exchange with Curufin from the earliest drafts?

~ Which version of the battle against the Dwarves do you like better: the one with Beren or the one with Celegorm and Curufin?

~ Christopher Tolkien says, “But it seems to me now, many years later, to have been an excessive tampering with my father’s actual thought and intention: this raising the question, whether the attempt to make a ‘unified’ Silmarillion should have been embarked on.” (7) Do you agree or disagree with him? Do you think The Silmarillion should have been reworked to accommodate later findings?

~ Do you think that the evil of the second Kinslaying hastens the doom of the Noldor?


Works Cited

(1) The Book of Lost Tales 2. “Turambar and the Foalókë”.
(2) The Book of Lost Tales 2. “The Nauglafring”.
(3) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest 'Silmarillion'”, 14.
(4) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Quenta”, 14.
(5) The Shaping of Middle-earth. “The Earliest Annals of Beleriand”, 200 - 203 & 206.
(6) The Lost Road, The Later Annals of Beleriand, 299-306
(7) The War of the Jewels, Part Three: The Wanderings of Húrin and Other Writings Not Forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion, The Wanderings of Húrin
(8) The War of the Jewels, Part Three: The Wanderings of Húrin and Other Writings Not Forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion, The Tale of Years
(9) The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 247
(10) The War of the Jewels, Part Three: The Wanderings of Húrin and Other Writings Not Forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion, The Tale of Years, A note on Chapter 22: Of the Ruin of Doriath in the published Silmarillion

Please note: We don't know everything and it's perfectly possible that we missed something. These summaries and questions are by no means supposed to be complete and exhaustive. If you have looked further into this particular topic or would like to discuss something that we've overlooked, please share it!

Also, please don't be afraid to talk amongst yourselves. We don't want this to be an echo chamber or for us to be lecturing to you. We want this to be a discussion among the community as a whole - everybody's got something to contribute!

Finally, don't forget to rec your favorite fanworks related to this chapter in the Fanworks Rec Post.

“Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin” is due November 2.

Comments

[mrowe.livejournal.com]

From The Shaping of Middle-earth, pg. 100-101 HarperCollins paperback edition, on the fate of the Elves:

*-*
Slain or fading their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos to wait a thousand years, or the pleasure of Mandos² according to their deserts, before they were recalled to free life in Valinor, or were reborn,³ it is said, into their own children.⁴
[...]
Note 4 Added here:
And of like fate were those fair offspring of Elf and Mortal, Eärendel, and Elwing,
and Dior her father, and Elrond her child.
*-*

The passage then immediately continues to discuss the fate of Men, and while this is written at a reasonably early stage in the development of the Silmarillion material (for instance, the idea of Elvish rebirth into their children has not yet been abandoned), afaik it is the only definite statement of what happens to Dior.

Of course it messes up that Elwing has a choice of fate, since that would make her a full Elf, but *shrug* Perhaps the decision was made in one go for the whole collection, and Dior happened to choose Elf... or any other explanation that fits in with material revised umpteen times over umpteen years *g*

[independence1776]

Well, that's definitely interesting! I hadn't realized there was any definitive statement at any point in time. But as you said, that may or may not have changed if Tolkien had revised it. Still, it's something to play around with. Thank you for pointing it out!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

"The Nauglafring" in BoLT 2 also explicitly speaks of "Dior the Elf". But of course, that's not exactly reliable - after all, in BoLT 2, Beren at least was an Elf until Lúthien and he returned from Mandos mortal. For later versions, I can only guess that since Dior is a quarter Maia, a quarter Sinda and two quarters mortal, the Maiarin part overrides the mortal part or something?

So yeah, still not convinced! I guess Tolkien made him an Elf for reasons of convenience (would the Sindar of Doriath follow a mortal, no matter who his parents are?). Maybe everybody assumed that he must be an Elf, and then he got killed before his mortal blood could become relevant. :P

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

Hello.

I just finished my lasted Silm re-reading today, coincidentally, and it was such a nice surprise to see this post here. With everything fresh in my mind, I can say that it's a very good summary of the chapter, concise but thourough.

I also quite enjoyed the notes about the versions - it's quite helpful to have them all in one place instead of having to dig through HoME. What a great job! And what a nice idea, this series. I particularly look forward to the next chapter, but meanwhile, I'll hunt down the previous ones.

[independence1776]

Thank you! Lyra and I work hard on them (as you can imagine, the HoME material takes a while to go through), so I'm sure I speak for both of us when I say that we're glad you find them helpful.

If you click on the "silmarillion re-read" tag, you'll find the rest of the posts.

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I will. :)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

And another thank you from me! "Helpful" is what we were trying to achieve, so I'm really glad it worked. :) Hope you enjoy the other chapters, too!

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

I am enjoying! Thank you. :)

[hhimring]

I'm finding it difficult to imagine another version of the published chapter--even though the evidence for the "tampering" is now so clear, with the conflicting versions set out. The first version has become too ingrained. Perhaps someone new to the Silmarillion would see this differently.

Beren's attack seems to conflict with Beren and Luthien's (apparently unproclaimed and unexplained) policy of non-involvement after their re-embodiment.
However, the attack by Celegorm and Curufin seems to be bound up with the idea of the sons of Feanor killing each other over the Silmaril. This is the classic ballad plot--but to me seems oddly unconvincing. Perhaps I'm too influenced by the later scene in which Maedhros and Maglor divide up the Silmarils between them--apparently in complete harmony.
It is my personal impression that everyone seems to succumb to desire for the Silmarils--but not necessarily the sons of Feanor. Perhaps they do not particularly want to possess them, as other do, they are just oath-bound to get their hands on them. But I know that there are some who would fiercely disagree, even based on the published version. And certainly that earlier version in HomE would completely contradict that.

[independence1776]

I, too, find it difficult to imagine another chapter. The only thing I would like more information on is the Second Kinslaying, but that's certainly not an editorial fault given the lack of material.

This is the classic ballad plot--but to me seems oddly unconvincing. Perhaps I'm too influenced by the later scene in which Maedhros and Maglor divide up the Silmarils between them--apparently in complete harmony.

I agree. Why just those two fighting? Why not all the sons? And them dying seems too coincidental to be realistic. (Of course, I like that bit simply for the fact that it flies in the face of the "Maglor is a wimp" fanon.) And, honestly, it makes a better story that the Ents come help, Beren avenging his father-in-law, etc.

We'll just have to disagree on that one. :) I don't think they're addicted to them like other people are (maybe they're somewhat protected because they're Fëanor's sons?), but I do think they want them on their own merits. Maglor, I think, didn't want to keep it in the end because he realized they weren't worth everything that had been done to retrieve them. Better that he willingly gave it up-- possibly ending the oath as well because he did it of his own free will-- and tossed it someplace where no one save the Ainur could find it.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I agree that it's hard to see how a better version could be devised that at the same time takes into account the available material. Melian's role is an interesting one to consider, whichever version you choose (or invent). My own view in my fic is that she couldn't stay after Thingol's death because as one of the Ainur she didn't have the right to actively rule over the Children of the One (which is consistent with how she is shown - as Thingol's adviser, but not apparently a co-ruler in the way that Celeborn was with Galadriel; my interpretation of this is that The Rules didn't allow her to be Queen on her own without Thingol). Also, if the Girdle had still been present, neither the Dwarvish army nor the Feanorians would have got anywhere near Menegroth, so she had to be got out of the way, in terms of creating a coherent narrative. Unless Dior is thought of as stupid enough to try to give battle to either army outside the borders of Doriath, which I would rather not.

Plus the Silmaril was back in play and clearly too dangerous to be left in the Children's hands, and getting it to the Sea would have needed a lot of interactions among events and personalities. So in addition to not being allowed to rule on her own, I think she was aware of Fate happening and either was obliged to leave in obedience to the working-out of the Song/Will of the Valar, or she didn't want to be around to see the denouement. Celeborn and Galadriel had already left long ago, before the Fourth Battle, to try to establish a bridgehead in Eregion and parts East, so they weren't in Doriath when all this was happening.

I don't think that the Silmarils were like the RIng in that the Ring was clearly actively malevolent (being basically an upload of Sauron). They were just too overwhelming for the Children to cope with. Luthien managed because of being half-Maia, and basically only interested in the Silmaril because she and Beren needed it to get married and Beren only wanted it because it was the condition of getting Luthien. So their primary desires and goals ('obsessions' is not too fierce a word, I think, considering what they went through to get married) were other, and the Silmaril was incidental. Plus I assumed that Beren's mental state after the fall of Dorthonion and ten years of guerilla warfare in the bush by himself plus walking through the Girdle was such that the Silmaril's influence just bounced off him ('hello, shiny rock that I need to marry Luthien. Very pretty, but not as pretty as she is, come along now, Thingol wants you').

Dior I prefer to think got the choice of fate when he turned up in Mandos and they asked him "Do you want to stay and be reincarnated with your wife, or do you want to go off into the beyond after your Mum and Dad?" And he chose Nimloth and was re-Housed in Valinor.

[independence1776]

Melian not being able to stay because she's Ainur is interesting-- but how does that go along with them ruling the Elves in Valinor? (Obviously, some of the Elves *cough*Fëanor*cough* took exception to that, but it seems as if the Teleri and Vanyar accepted it.) I think what bugs me about the narrative in the Silm is that she just faded away out of grief rather than having a more active role and choosing to return to Valinor when things were a bit more stable.

she didn't want to be around to see the denouement.

I'll go with that. She did counsel Thingol to return it to the Fëanorians before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

So their primary desires and goals ('obsessions' is not too fierce a word, I think, considering what they went through to get married) were other, and the Silmaril was incidental.

That makes sense. They didn't have the connection to it practically everyone else had.

Dior I prefer to think got the choice of fate when he turned up in Mandos and they asked him "Do you want to stay and be reincarnated with your wife, or do you want to go off into the beyond after your Mum and Dad?" And he chose Nimloth and was re-Housed in Valinor.

I like that!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

As I see it, the Valar ruled Valinor (and the world) in the 'presiding deities' sense, but they didn't rule the Elves in any political sense of the word. Elves had self-rule under their own rulers.

When the Valar exiled Feanor without consulting Finwe, he rightly took that as an insult to his sovereignty, (which he got from the people, who had chosen him as king, not from the Valar) and abdicated in a huff. I think that was the only time that the Valar interfered in the domestic affairs of any of the Elves, and it was so obviously a mistake in judgement (excusable only because they had never come across dynastic politics before) that it was not repeated. Melian's case was different, because she was actually Queen, a position within the Elvish internal hierarchy, not just the goddess-in-charge.

[independence1776]

Yeah, we have two different interpretations. I think that politically the Valar ruled Valinor and let the Elves have their own kingdoms with their own laws-- but the final authority rested with the Valar. As long as nothing pinged their attention as problematic, they'd leave the Elves alone. However, Fëanor's actions affected both the Noldor and Vanyar (due to Indis) in addition to being a death threat (which is new and thus has no legal precedent), Finwë's conflict of interest (everyone knows he favored Fëanor), and Ingwë's conflict of interest (he's High King of the Elves, which meant the case should have come to him, but Fingolfin's a close relation). So the Valar interfering wasn't interfering, but them having original jurisdiction.

So Melian had the right to rule. (Maybe. She may only have been able to be a regent until Thingol's heir arrived.)

[hhimring]

I seem to remember there is one version were Dior fights the Feanorians on the Marches of Doriath, not in Menegroth--not that I can actually find it right now. It makes the Feanorians look less treacherous than an unexpected midwinter attack, I guess--not sure whether that's the point, though, it's more probably to do with the Girdle--but I think there was no explanation why Dior should go in for meeting them out there.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was the one I was thinking about. If the Girdle was still there, there was absolutely no reason for him to do it.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what the Earliest Annals of Beleriand state. (The older versions never say where exactly the battle takes place.) Maybe Dior was hoping to keep renewed ruin from Doriath by meeting the sons of Fëanor elsewhere? Even if they could've made tactical use of the caves and forest etc., it would have meant a lot more destruction.

[angelica-ramses.livejournal.com]

When I reread the chapter (after a long time, obviously) I was struck at how brief the story of the Second Kinslaying is. This is probably consequence of Christopher having to put together so many conflicting versions. But I agree: this is what we have and it makes sense (or we became so used to it that it's hard to see another version)

The Silmaril: not like the Ring definitely since it's not the product of evil but definitely addictive. There are repeated instances of peope ready to get killed for it (Thingol), go to war against a long time ally at a time when allies are hard to come by (the dwarves) or live shorter lives because of wearing it (Luthien and Beren). I don't include the Sons of Feanor because the Oath seems to have a life of its own ("the oath of the sons of Feanor was waked from sleep") and they are probably driven by it rather than by Silmaril lust.

Melian: after all she chose to become stay because of Thingol so once he died and her daughter chose the fate of mortals, she doesn't have much left in Middle-earth so going back to Valinor makes sense

[independence1776]

Not just a result of conflicting versions, but a sheer lack of material. It's pretty much the only part of the chapter that I'd like to know more about. But I definitely have a hard time imagining a different version than the published one.

The Silmaril: not like the Ring definitely since it's not the product of evil but definitely addictive. […] I don't include the Sons of Feanor because the Oath seems to have a life of its own ("the oath of the sons of Feanor was waked from sleep") and they are probably driven by it rather than by Silmaril lust.

I agree with this. I do think they wanted them for their own sake-- after all, they were their father's-- but it was the oath driving them to possess them. It's fairly notable that, if indeed the Silmarils are addictive, it's a son of Fëanor who is able to give one up.

As I mentioned above, I think I'd have less problem with her leaving if she'd been just a bit more active (as in some of the alternate versions) rather than fading away and leaving out of grief. But I don't think she could have stayed in Middle-earth much beyond what she did. It wasn't much of a home to her anymore.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

It's fairly notable that, if indeed the Silmarils are addictive, it's a son of Fëanor who is able to give one up.

That bit was what got me interested in Maglor. The sheer bloody-mindedness involved was rather impressive.

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

"It's fairly notable that, if indeed the Silmarils are addictive, it's a son of Fëanor who is able to give one up."

I think that the Oath and the deeds made in its name have such a crushing, soul-defiling weight on the sons of Fëanor (at least on Maedhros and Maglor, who show compassion and other moral qualities that the 3Cs lack), that they may actually find the Silmarils repulsive even if the can't admit it. I'd hate the Silmaril if, because of it, my best friend had been left behind, my younger brother had died (at least in one version), my father had died, my hands were bloodstained with kin blood, etc etc...

Also, if you have to do something forcibly you're more likely to abhor it than to do it willingly (Maedhros does come off like a procrastinator...).

[independence1776]

My version of Maglor doesn't hate the Silmaril itself, but everything surrounding it and therefore what it represents: Kinslayings, a doomed oath, the deaths of all his immediate family save his mother, etc. He neither wants nor needs that reminder.

I don't see how Maedhros is a procrastinator? He's never come across that way to me.

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe procrastinator is harsh (and I do love Maedhros as a character), but the fact is that when Thingol gets the Silmaril Maedhros is not there, knocking at his door the next day... things go on (and this is one of the things that contributes for my mental image of Maedhros rolling his eyes and sighing to himself as he is forced by the oath to set out...).

[independence1776]

I definitely read that as reluctance, not procrastination. At this point, it's fairly obvious that the only way to get that Silmaril back is with bloodshed (because diplomacy has never worked) and Maedhros both times waits a while before the Kinslayings. But the oath overrides all.

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

I think we agree, we just call it different names.

[hhimring]

On, a different tack, the Turin chapter is depressing enough, but those final bits of Hurin's story just break my heart.
I've always been haunted by those words of Hurin's: 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset'--and re-reading all the details of that scene! Oh my!

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I am amused and pleased that for as long as Luthien had the Silmaril, absolutely no-one in Middle-earth (including Morgoth) had the nerve to try and take it from her.

[independence1776]

That is my favorite part of the entire chapter.

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

I am rather late to this party, but my nano-novel is about to be written into the direction of Doriath's downfall.

Anyway, this quote still gets to me and inspired me to write Unconquered some time ago. It speaks so much about Morwen's strength & courage: He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. 'She was not conquered', he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat unmoving beside her as the night drew down.”

After I studied and wrote Morwen, I came to love and respect her a great deal.

Anyways, as I re-read your summary (and thank you so much for the alternate versions because they will be useful for my novel), I find this tidbit interesting:

The rumor of it spreads through Beleriand, and it brings the scattered sons of Fëanor together, waking their oath.

I recently re-read the Lay of Leithian it appeared to me that the sons of Fëanor can set aside the oath, bury it deep inside if needed. Celegorm sees Luthien and knows of Beren's quest: the oath is stirred and set the wheels of fate in motion. Yet the oath and their cause unites them for bad and worse.

[independence1776]

Late's fine! :D

You're welcome for the Alternate Versions! We're always thrilled to hear that people find them useful.

It makes me wonder how the oath sleeps; if it knows that the Silmarils can't be obtained and wakes when the possibility is more likely? Maybe, as I do tend to go for the oath being… I don't want to say intelligent or self-aware, but it's clearly magical in nature.