silwritersguild | Tolkien would have wanted his works to inspire Fan Fiction

jaredmith.livejournal.com posting in

http://jaredmithrandirolorin.blogspot.com/2015/05/tolkien-would-have-wanted-his-works-to.html

I don't know where to find the quote now, but I'm pretty sure he had said he wanted in time other writers and artists to add to his mythology. He knew full well no great mythology is formed entirely from the mind of only one person. And I include in that both adding to the continuity and creating alternate continuities.

As massive as what he left us is, there is also much room to expand, even without continuing the story past the reign of Aragorn's son. And if you do go past that the options are endless.

I think he would have wanted people with different backgrounds and experiences and perspectives then him to explore Arda in ways he couldn't. So yes I think that includes women writers adding a female perspective. Both further developing the female characters he already provided and creating more of them. That is part of my defense of how lacking his handling of women was.

I think there is room even to expand Arda beyond just Middle-Earth, Numenor and Beleriand, and explore other less western (white) civilizations. The Southorns and Easterlings get a bad wrap as seemingly just pawns of Morgoth and Sauron. But Tolkien did leave more then enough hints that their being in that situation is not really their fault. I love Faramir's speech at the end of disc one of The Two Towers extended edition. In the book Sam said it, but I think that's one of the things the movies improved, Tolkien had described Faramir as the most like himself, and as those words as coming from Tolkien's experience as a WWI solider.

I think it's also plausible to create all new Civilizations for Arda. Both outside Middle Earth and maybe even within in. During the second age we know next to nothing about the humans who lived in Middle Earth rather then Numenor. Then there is the fact that the lands of Middle Earth did exist during the First Age, but the story of the First Age is entirely further west. Why not invent some matriarchal Amazon like tribes for Arda, both within Middle Earth and without. Some Edain (white) Amazons who could make sense coming from an offshoot of Haleth's tribe, and some ethnic ones too.

And the Dwarves (who had 7 clans but we only really ever see one) are equally as open. The Dwarves seem far less likely to have ever had a matriarchal tribe, but the feminine side of the Dwarves is still entirely open for new writers.

Now it may seem difficult to believe a devout prudish Catholic like Tolkien would ever be Ok with Homosexuality being explored in his mythology. But he also talked about Applicability, that a story should be interpreted beyond the Author's intent, even in conflict with it.

And you know what, I think it's telling that Tolkien never condemned Homosexuality at any point in his Legendarium (Lewis did with the Hardcaslte character in The Hideous Strength). In-spite of how G rated his writing was when it came to Sex, he did address sex acts he viewed as wrong. Eol and Ar-Pharazon are both Rapists in at least one version of their tales.

And Incest is explored, most famously with The Children of Hurin. But what most annoys me about Tolkien's sexual morality is how harsh he is even to relationships between First Cousins. The Bible not only never condemns it but even encourages it to an extent. For the most part being grossed out by Cousin relationships is entirely modern. But Tolkien not only codifies it as wrong in Elvish law, but has it at the root of Meaglin becoming the Elvish Benedict Arnold.

So that he considered Same-Sex love less worth condemning then Cousin love, is interesting. Tolkien also enjoyed a Lesbian Nrse Story.

Everyone has talked endlessly about the things in Tolkien that can be interpreted as male Homoerotisism. But since Tolkien never passes the Bechel Test, actual relationships between women are virtually non existent. So we have to look elsewhere for an excuse to interpret a character as Lesbian.

Tolkien may not have been aware of it, but it is now well known that Virginity in the ancient mythologies Tolkien drew on was often code for Lesbianism. The most popular Tolkien character to see as possibly Lesbian by virtue of her seeming aversion to men is Tar-Ancalmine. Unfortunately she seems to make a very problematic stereotype whatever orientation you give her.

The top two women in Tolkien I like to interpret as Monosexually Lesbian are Haleth and Tar-Telperien. Both were leaders of their people who made a point of never being married.

Haleth as an early First Age human I don't even visualize as a Medieval person. The Human tribes during the First Age I see as Ancient, but not Greeco-Roman Ancient, more like the Ancient pre-civilized Celtic and German/Norse tribes. Haleth however seems to me like exactly the kind of woman who would wind up being a lover of Artemis. Since I see some of Artemis in Nessa, I wind up shipping them togather. But there is also room to invent for her a human lover from her tribe, or have her meet an Elf. A human from another tribe seems unlikely as I think she was always pretty far away from them.

Tar-Telperien, I have seen two people in the Fandom community already say she is Asexual in their head canon. That is an equally valid interpretation from what little we are told about her. But I really want to see a High Fantasy story about a Lesbian Queen, with a lover probably from a lower class. Possibly drawing some inspiration from Berenice and Mesopotamia (free cookie if you know what I'm referencing). And as far as room for that in Tolkien goes, Tar-Telperien is the best option.

All three Queens of Numenor get a bad wrap. I feel like Tar-Telperien is the easiest to defend. Her condemnation is entirely in her foreign policy. Crap was going on in Middle Earth between Sauron and The Elves, and she choose to stay out of it. In real life that is exactly the foreign policy I prefer as a Ron Paul voter, The U.S. should stay out of wars fought on other Continents. It's hard to apply that to a fantasy setting where one of the Geo-Political entities is a literal Fallen Angel. And I'm sure Tolkien had the WWII era American Isolationists in mind when he wrote characters like this. But I for one will not condemn her for refusing to take her people to a war that did not really involve them.

She is also notable for being the only Ruling Queen who's known to have had a brother. Speculation on that has been done elsewhere. What I note here is the fact that her brother's son became her successor, and we do not know a name or identity for the mother of that son. I think it's possible that if Tar-Telperien was exclusively Homosexual, but had a lover who was Bi/Pansexual, or at least more open to male-female intercourse for the purpose of reproduction then she was. I could see her marrying her lover to her brother.

I do indeed consider the possibly of actual legal Gay Marriage in Arda unlikely, For the Elves Hetero-Intercourse and Marriage are the same thing. We've seen in Fantasy and maybe History also examples of something like the above suggested arrangement with men. A man in a royal gay male paring marrying his lover's sister. Like Renly and Loras on Game of Thrones.

The Tolkien women who have loved men could certainly still be Bi. But there is one more character I want to discus who's Sexuality is entirely up for debate.

Nienor Niniel, daughter of Hurin and sister of Turn Turambar. Her relationship with her brother came about about from the dragon Glaurung's manipulation of events, an argument can be made it tells us nothing about her actual Sexual Orientation.

You may be thinking "all he did it seems was wipe her memory?". The key thing I think in Tolkien's mind was that their ignorance of their relationship to each other caused their natural sibling bond to be misinterpreted as romantic. It didn't at all happen simply because she thought Turambar was Hot.

I found one Fan Fiction once were Niniel had a romantic relationship with Nellas before she went to search for Turin. Then she survives her jump into the water, Nellas tracks her down and they raise the baby together.

I'd like to thank Dawn Felagund for identifying the Quote I mentioned.
http://dawnfelagund.tumblr.com/post/119237448828/jaredmithrandir-olorin-tolkien-would-have-wanted

"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd."

Another additional note. ON my connecting Nessa to Artemis, It is notable that in the oldest versions Tolkien wrote she wasn't Tulkas wife yet, that was a separate Aniur.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

independence1776

Would Tolkien have approved? That’s a question that I think can’t ever really be answered. Yes, there’s the “other hands and minds” quote-- but there’s also Letter 292 where he disapproves of two different people publishing sequels. The difference may very well be that they wanted to publish-publish, but there is literally no way to know the exact reason Tolkien disapproved* or if he would have felt differently about fanfic published on the Internet.

* It could be that he was disgruntled about someone using his names, that someone wanted to publish something based off his work, or even that he felt that any sequel wouldn’t be worth telling. Any of those are valid interpretations.

As for the other topics you bring up: I’m going to agree with what Dawn said on Tumblr-- that the stories themselves have in-world narrators with their own in-universe biases. People who do not fit the heterosexual white “norm” could have been easily ignored or written so they blend in, as Dawn pointed out. How much those biases are Tolkien’s own is another question that can never truly be answered.

Many of the possibilities you bring up, especially about the East and South, are things people have been exploring in fanfic for years. (Probably a lot less so with the Dwarves; interest in them skyrocketed with the Hobbit movies.) There is an audience for them if you wish to write them.

What people consider incest as incest varies culture by culture at different points in time, and prohibiting first cousin marriages is not only a modern view. (It is in fact that the Catholic Church’s stance and has been for centuries, though dispensations can be obtained.) And LACE can easily be and is read by many as condemning anything other than heterosexual monogamy.

Frankly, saying Tolkien had such and so forth in mind when he wrote a specific character or situation is rather fraught: we literally cannot know whether or not he did. And he took a (very understated) offense to the implication that LotR was a product of World War II instead of a product of his own experiences in World War I. Also, just because he read (and wrote) stories containing X, Y, and Z does not mean he approved of (all of) their contents.

In the end, do I think Tolkien would have approved fanfic?* I lean toward no. Some fics (of whose content I will not speculate) may very well have met with his approval; many others would not have. He may very well have lumped us in with the “deplorable cultus.” And I understand the tendency of writers to protect the world they came up with. At the same time, I think he’d understand the impulse that brings us to write fic.

* The Tolkien Estate doesn’t like fanfic but doesn’t come after noncommercial producers. I think this is a monetary and strategic stance. They know Tolkien fans are the ones who buy the books, and the majority of the fanfic writers I know own at least one volume of HoME and usually more. They make money off us. The strategy comes from not attacking your own fanbase. It doesn’t look good on their end to attack people who are just having fun doing something for free. (Please note the Estate shut down a Gondolin noncommercial fanfilm. There are limits to their “look the other way” acceptance of fanworks.)

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

Laws and Customs does codify things in hetero-normative terms. But what I meant was he never depicted a Homosexual person or relationship with the intent to condemning it.

Tolkien was opposed to Allegory, there is no no denying however the books where somewhat a product of their times.

From:

independence1776

Neither does his silence about homosexuality means he condones it. Assuming silence equals approval is a logical fallacy (specifically the Argument from Silence). There is literally no way to know what Tolkien truly thought about homosexuality as we have no evidence about it; arguments can be made for approval and disapproval.

I never said anything about allegory and applicability, and I am well aware that he disliked allegory. I was specifically responding to your statement, "And I'm sure Tolkien had the WWII era American Isolationists in mind when he wrote characters like this."

To specifically state that Tolkien had WWII American isolationists in mind ignores that America was politically neutral for three years in World War I (during the years Tolkien joined and then fought at the Somme), that Switzerland was neutral for both wars, and the many other historical people who did not wish to engage in wars. All of these could be reasons. We cannot know why Tolkien wrote Tar-Telperien the way he did, nor what influenced him to do so.

Furthermore, Tolkien explicitly says in Fellowship's Foreword, "An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous. […] One had indeed to come under the shadow of war to fully feel its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth in 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years."

My point being: we cannot know whether or not Tolkien would have approved or disapproved of something he said nothing about. Nor can we prove exactly what inspired a specific characterization.

Edited Date: 2015-05-18 06:25 pm (UTC)

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

I'm not arguing he approved it. I don't think it's something he felt particularly opposed to.

From:

independence1776

The fact is, we don't know whether or not he felt opposed to it or not. He never said (at least in the letters, interviews, and papers available to us) and neither has his family stated anything about Tolkien's views of the matter. I repeat: silence does not equal approval or disapproval. Nor does it equal opposition or the lack thereof. Silence is merely absence of proof, and nothing can be learned or implied from it. Arguments for Tolkien's position can be made in either direction using known things (like his Catholicism or his reading of a book with same-sex relationships), but the lack of hard evidence basically means any such discussion likely won't be fruitful. No one from either side is likely to convince the other.

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

I'm only trying to look on the bright side

From:

independence1776

That's perfectly fine! As I said, it's a valid interpretation. But it is just that-- an interpretation, not fact. You can't use flawed logic to defend it without expecting people to call you on that defense, especially when you post in a discussion community with a multitude of viewpoints.

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

I am perfectly fine with people disagreeing with my logic. I want to open debates not squash them.

From:

dawn_felagund

Yes, there’s the “other hands and minds” quote-- but there’s also Letter 292 where he disapproves of two different people publishing sequels. The difference may very well be that they wanted to publish-publish, but there is literally no way to know the exact reason Tolkien disapproved* or if he would have felt differently about fanfic published on the Internet.

I do wonder at his expression of such opposite views. I've always thought that his statement in 131 to Waldman reflects a very idealistic notion, while 292 is jaded by--and this is going to sound so awful--actually being exposed to fans and fandom. In 131, it's as though he imagines others like himself--well-versed in the literature, folklore, and myth to say nothing of the languages that inspired his own creations--doing exactly what he's doing. In 292, it seems he's realized that most people don't find that appealing or work in that way. I wonder what the "young ass" proposed in for a sequel (or the young woman who dared share her ideas with him and was rebuked). Perhaps it involved trying to slay a dragon by constructing a large, partly molten golden statue ... ;)

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

Seems plausible

Whether he's a approve or not, I feel fans a responsible to expand the universe.

In my views his writers should have entered the Public Domains awhile ago.

From:

independence1776

That is pretty much what I think his reaction comes down to, too. There's an ideal "fan" and fandom… well, you know fandom.

I also wonder what the sequels were about, and if they missed some of the themes Tolkien felt important. And that's not speculating on if they contained any of the even slightly controversial interpretations. (Haha! Yes, that's it-- the dragon-slaying by molten gold!)

From:

dreamflower

Those are some very good points.

There is, I think, a difference between approving and accepting.

I think (and this is just my opinion) that he would know that encouraging "other minds and hands" to play in his world would mean that he would not approve of at least some of what was produced. But he would, I think, accept most of it as inevitable. Some of what is written in terms of fanfic he would find deplorable or even disgusting, some he would be amused by, and some he might even like a little. But he would also know that this is the fate and nature of myth, to grow, change, evolve and find different meanings.

Judging by his reactions to some of his translators, and to his one encounter with a possible screenplay during his lifetime, I think he would be more insulted by mistakes in his languages and names or by egregious and ridiculous changes (such as a "castle" in Lothlorien!) than by any moral or immoral content.

From:

hhimring

I may be wrong about this, but I'm not sure Tar-Telperien being isolationist is a canonical fact.
It seems that according to the "Line of Elros" she reigned until 1731, while it's stated in two other places (one of which is the timeline of Arnor in the LOTR Appendices) that in 1700 Tar-Minastir sent troops to help Gil-galad. Tar-Telperien being isolationist is certainly an interpretation that helps to make sense of this otherwise unexplained discrepancy in dates, but is it stated anywhere explicitly that she was? Unless the argument is that she was simply isolationist along with the other rulers between Tar-Aldarion and Tar-Minastir.
Anyway, she is certainly an interesting character well worth thinking about.

The story about Nellas and Nienor that you mention sounds like Elleth's By the Iris Mere.

Edited Date: 2015-05-18 11:11 pm (UTC)

From:

jaredmith.livejournal.com

We don't know the details of it, but for whatever reason Numenor did not get involved in the wars fought during her reign.

That could be it, I think it was posted on Live Journal, I read it back before I had an account of my own.

Edit: that doesn't look like that's it, maybe a different chapter of the same series.

Edit, it's Wreath in the Rapids that I read

Edited Date: 2015-05-19 02:19 am (UTC)

From:

hhimring

Yes--my point was that it's difficult to be sure that those wars were in fact fought during her reign, because the same source that gives the dates of her reign appears to imply that the wars were later than stated elsewhere.
But I don't object to the interpretation of Telperien as isolationist.

If you've read Wreath in the Rapids, but not By the Iris Mere, I can recommend the sequel. Well worth reading!