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silwritersguildThe Silm has so little to say about Amrod and Amras that I'm including the generic 'Sons of Fëanor' section in today's post, which contains all the quotes for the Sons of Fëanor being referred to as a collective and when all their names are mentioned in the same paragraph.
There were a couple of interesting points that the 'Sons of Fëanor' section reminded me of, and I wondered if anyone had any ideas about them:
1) Was Formenos to the east or the west of the Pelóri mountains in Valinor?
2) Why did Turgon vow 'to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor' only after the second Kinslaying?
Amrod and Amras
Potted History
*Amrod is also known as Telufinwë (Telvo) and Ambarussa
*Amras is also known as Pityafinwë (Pityo) and Ambarussa, Ambarto or Umbarto
*Both twins have red-brown hair (HoME Vol. 12, c.f. Maedhros)
*In one version of the burning of the ships at Losgar Amras was accidentally burnt with the ships (HoME Vol. 12)
In the Greenwoods
there Amrod and Amras had their abode, and they came seldom northward while the Siege lasted; and there also other of the Elf-lords would ride at times, even from afar, for the land was wild but very fair. Of these Finrod Felagund came most often
Battle of Sudden Flame
Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.
Third Kinslaying
both Amrod and Amras were slain.
The Sons of Fëanor
In Aman
The seven sons of Fëanor were Maedhros the tall; Maglor the mighty singer, whose voice was heard far over land and sea; Celegorm the fair, and Caranthir the dark; Curufin the crafty, who inherited most his father's skill of hand; and the youngest Amrod and Amras, who were twin brothers, alike in mood and face. In later days they were great hunters in the woods of Middle-earth; and a hunter also was Celegorm, who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë, and often followed the Vala's horn.
Fëanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown. Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë;
Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all.
With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor
His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession
Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.
In Middle-earth
the sons of Fëanor knew that Morgoth would betray them, and would not release Maedhros, whatsoever they might do; and they were constrained also by their oath, and might not for any cause forsake the war against their Enemy.
Now the lords of the Noldor held council in Mithrim, and thither came Angrod out of Doriath, bearing the message of King Thingol. Cold seemed its welcome to the Noldor, and the sons of Fëanor were angered at the words
the greater part of the Noldor, of both followings, hearing his words were troubled in heart, fearing the fell spirit of the sons of Fëanor that it seemed would ever be like to burst forth in rash word or violence.
In that region, upon the March of Maedhros and in the lands behind, dwelt the sons of Fëanor with many people; and their riders passed often over the vast northern plain, Lothlann the wide and empty, east of Ard-galen, lest Morgoth should attempt any sortie towards East Beleriand
Thus the sons of Fëanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand, but their people were in that time mostly in the north of the land, and southward they rode only to hunt in the greenwoods.
Thingol and Melian's opinion
But Melian said: 'Truly for these causes they came; but for others also. Beware of the sons of Fëanor! The shadow of the wrath of the Valar lies upon them; and they have done evil, I perceive, both in Aman and to their own kin. A grief but lulled to sleep lies between the princes of the Noldor.'
And Thingol answered: 'What is that to me? Of Fëanor I have heard but report, which makes him great indeed. Of his sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest foes of our foe.'
Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges,' said Melian; and afterwards they spoke no more of this matter.
Finrod's opinion
the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them.
Orodreth's tantrum
he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.
Orodreth would not march forth at the word of any son of Fëanor
The Second Kinslaying
the sons of Fëanor gained not what they sought; for a remnant of the people fled before them, and with them was Elwing Dior's daughter, and they escaped, and bearing with them the Silmaril they came in time to the mouths of the River Sirion by the sea.
Turgon's hissy fit
Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor;
The Valar get in on the act
the oath of Fëanor perhaps even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim.
Third Kinslaying
For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords
The Valar really do want the Silmarils!
Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning;
There were a couple of interesting points that the 'Sons of Fëanor' section reminded me of, and I wondered if anyone had any ideas about them:
1) Was Formenos to the east or the west of the Pelóri mountains in Valinor?
2) Why did Turgon vow 'to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor' only after the second Kinslaying?
Amrod and Amras
Potted History
*Amrod is also known as Telufinwë (Telvo) and Ambarussa
*Amras is also known as Pityafinwë (Pityo) and Ambarussa, Ambarto or Umbarto
*Both twins have red-brown hair (HoME Vol. 12, c.f. Maedhros)
*In one version of the burning of the ships at Losgar Amras was accidentally burnt with the ships (HoME Vol. 12)
In the Greenwoods
there Amrod and Amras had their abode, and they came seldom northward while the Siege lasted; and there also other of the Elf-lords would ride at times, even from afar, for the land was wild but very fair. Of these Finrod Felagund came most often
Battle of Sudden Flame
Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of his people to the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.
Third Kinslaying
both Amrod and Amras were slain.
The Sons of Fëanor
In Aman
The seven sons of Fëanor were Maedhros the tall; Maglor the mighty singer, whose voice was heard far over land and sea; Celegorm the fair, and Caranthir the dark; Curufin the crafty, who inherited most his father's skill of hand; and the youngest Amrod and Amras, who were twin brothers, alike in mood and face. In later days they were great hunters in the woods of Middle-earth; and a hunter also was Celegorm, who in Valinor was a friend of Oromë, and often followed the Vala's horn.
Fëanor and his sons abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far and wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown. Often they were guests in the halls of Aulë;
Seven sons she bore to Fëanor; her mood she bequeathed in part to some of them, but not to all.
With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor
His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession
Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.
In Middle-earth
the sons of Fëanor knew that Morgoth would betray them, and would not release Maedhros, whatsoever they might do; and they were constrained also by their oath, and might not for any cause forsake the war against their Enemy.
Now the lords of the Noldor held council in Mithrim, and thither came Angrod out of Doriath, bearing the message of King Thingol. Cold seemed its welcome to the Noldor, and the sons of Fëanor were angered at the words
the greater part of the Noldor, of both followings, hearing his words were troubled in heart, fearing the fell spirit of the sons of Fëanor that it seemed would ever be like to burst forth in rash word or violence.
In that region, upon the March of Maedhros and in the lands behind, dwelt the sons of Fëanor with many people; and their riders passed often over the vast northern plain, Lothlann the wide and empty, east of Ard-galen, lest Morgoth should attempt any sortie towards East Beleriand
Thus the sons of Fëanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand, but their people were in that time mostly in the north of the land, and southward they rode only to hunt in the greenwoods.
Thingol and Melian's opinion
But Melian said: 'Truly for these causes they came; but for others also. Beware of the sons of Fëanor! The shadow of the wrath of the Valar lies upon them; and they have done evil, I perceive, both in Aman and to their own kin. A grief but lulled to sleep lies between the princes of the Noldor.'
And Thingol answered: 'What is that to me? Of Fëanor I have heard but report, which makes him great indeed. Of his sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest foes of our foe.'
Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges,' said Melian; and afterwards they spoke no more of this matter.
Finrod's opinion
the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them.
Orodreth's tantrum
he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.
Orodreth would not march forth at the word of any son of Fëanor
The Second Kinslaying
the sons of Fëanor gained not what they sought; for a remnant of the people fled before them, and with them was Elwing Dior's daughter, and they escaped, and bearing with them the Silmaril they came in time to the mouths of the River Sirion by the sea.
Turgon's hissy fit
Turgon shut his ear to word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor;
The Valar get in on the act
the oath of Fëanor perhaps even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim.
Third Kinslaying
For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords
The Valar really do want the Silmarils!
Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning;
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Sons of Feanor
Date: 2005-10-18 01:09 pm (UTC)Re: Sons of Feanor
Date: 2005-10-18 01:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 01:50 pm (UTC)I believe it was to the west--at least going by Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth--but I will have to look it up to be sure.
2) Why did Turgon vow 'to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor' only after the second Kinslaying?
In "The Shibboleth of Feanor," it is said that because of Elenwe's death on the ice, Turgon ever after hated the sons of Feanor. Maybe he was just reiterating?
I've always taken his participation in the Nirnaeth to be more for Fingon's sake rather than Maedhros.' Of course, that could just be Felak!verse.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 02:47 pm (UTC)Turgon's reaction was in direct response to the Second Kinslaying. Even though he hated them already it looks like something else might have happened to get him to say that - what what so much worse about the second Kinslaying than the first?
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 03:05 pm (UTC)Fonstad's work, iirc, is based off of Tolkien's notes and drawings, some of them unpublished, available to the public at That University Whose Name I Cannot Remember. So it *is* Tolkien's work, just not Tolkien's work that we can see in a book.
what what so much worse about the second Kinslaying than the first?
Umm...Turgon probably participated in the first? ;)
Perhaps (going out on a limb here), the first kinslaying was easier to dismiss as the result of confusion, with some Elves thinking that the Teleri had attacked first and that they were defending themselves. The second kinslaying, though, was premeditated. There was no doubt that the Feanorians were going to Doriath with the intent of taking the Silmaril and, if they met with resistance, killing any who stood in their path.
Celegorm and Curufin even swore to kill Thingol if he would not relinquish the Silmaril. (And I got that from your character research! Whee!)
Legally, premeditated murder is considered worse than that which happens more or less as an accident. It's easier to argue the latter for the first kinslaying than the second. Actually, it's flat-out impossible for the second, short of AU contortionism!
The Feanorians had been behaving more or less (except for the Nargothrond fiasco), so maybe Turgon thought that there was hope yet for them, hope that was destroyed when they again resorted to kinslaying, especially since they all (not just the Cs) participated in it.
Just my theory :)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 03:26 pm (UTC)Ah, I see, but unfortunately it doesn't make the little pictures on the map of Valinor any clearer.
I've used the Celegorm and Curufin saying they would go after Thingol thing in a fic.
The Teleri did attack first - by pushing the Noldor into the sea. It doesn't say Turgon participated in the Kinslaying in the Silm (whereas it actually says that Fingon did), but then again it doesn't say he didn't.
I think it's a very reasonable argument that Turgon thought that the Feanorians were improving and got a nasty shock when they attacked Doriath.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 03:45 pm (UTC)I know. I got the atlas for First Age work, obviously, really hoping for a good map of Aman, but it seems that it doesn't exist. Oh well, more liberty to make it up! ;)
The Teleri did attack first - by pushing the Noldor into the sea.
True. I've just never wished to slant the first kinslaying as The War of Telerin Aggression ;) (Over here, our Civil War is often called the "War of the Northern Aggression" by southern apologists who don't want to admit that leaving a nation is grounds to be attacked by said nation! Just like the Noldor wouldn't want to admit that trying to steal someone's property gives them the right to protect it...ironic, given that this is the whole rationale behind their quest to Middle-earth in the first place--and the kinslayings!)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 03:57 pm (UTC)I'm making my own map of Valinor in a round world for my new fic anyway.
Over here, our Civil War is often called the "War of the Northern Aggression" by southern apologists who don't want to admit that leaving a nation is grounds to be attacked by said nation!
Huh? But it isn't. Or at least it wasn't in Yugoslavia. I'm confused, but I don't know much about the U.S. civil war.
I agree the Teleri had a right to defend their property and that the Noldor provoked them, but neither side used 'reasonable force', which is what a British court would judge them on.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 04:04 pm (UTC)Well, the state of South Caroline decided that it was tired of being part of the US and decided to form its own country.
When negotiations failed, the northern US decided to be more forceful in persuasion. That's what I meant. Hence, the "northern aggression."
It's a shame, really. Sometimes I want to secede from the US and form the Felak Nation, but I don't think I'll stand up well against the American military.
I'm making my own map of Valinor in a round world for my new fic anyway.
Why does that not surprise me? ;-P
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 04:08 pm (UTC)Sometimes I want to secede from the US and form the Felak Nation, but I don't think I'll stand up well against the American military.
LOL!
My dad is a geography teacher and I keep bugging him with questions about equatorial and mountain climates, to the extent that he has now lent me some textbooks to shut me up!
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 04:55 pm (UTC)anyhow this European butts out ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-18 04:57 pm (UTC)