Elves and Elvishness

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

One of my original stories contains two races of semi-immortal people, and I really don't want them to be too similar to Tolkien's elves, so I thought a bit about exactly what 'elvish behaviour' means.



It's a common criticism of fic: 'Your elves aren't elvish enough', and I'm sure most of us have been told that at least once, but what do we really mean by it? The common perception (fanon, perhaps?) seems to be that elves live life very slowly and indecisively, which may well be true for some, but certainly not for all, even in LoTR. I would suggest that it is their life experiences and personalities that make elves like Elrond, Gildor and Galadriel that way, rather than being something inherent to all elves. Celeborn is positively hasty in his decision-making process, as shown by his reaction to the news of the Moria Balrog.

There was an interesting discussion a few weeks ago on Dawn's LJ about the intervals between children in a elven family, and there the canon examples range from three children in a maximum of ten years, (Eluréd, Elurín and Elwing) which would not be unusual in an average family today, to almost six centuries between Turgon and Aredhel. Once again, elves range from one end of the spectrum to the other, and their spectrum is far broader than ours.

'Youth' is also a relative term for elves, and may encompass the entire first millennium of life. LaCE tells us that elves tended to marry when young, but Finarfin is almost five hundred years old when he marries Eärwen. Fëanor created his Tengwar in his "early youth", even though he was seven hundred and seventy-six at the time.

For hastiness in decision making, I offer the example of the Noldor of Tirion, who took almost no time at all to decide to pack up and move to a different continent. Whatever their reasons (revenge, recovery of Silmarils, wanting a land of their own, etc.) it was not a change that required long deliberation.

So the next time someone tells you your elves aren't acting elvishly because they do things too quickly, remember that you're in the company of JRRT himself!

Comments

Elves and Elvishness

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

You said it beautifully, Lois! The examples are all there from Tolkien himself. I think that he changed his mind so many times while putting together his mythology that he left behind a truly rich variety of material from which we fanfic writers can choose when deciding what to write about ourselves. I think that this also tends to spark our imaginations more so than if he had left a legacy of strict codes and behaviour, but he did not!

Re: Elves and Elvishness

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Absolutely - and even when he did give us a code of behaviour, such as in LaCE, there are plenty of get-out clauses!

[dawn_felagund]

I've been told my Elves aren't Elvish enough before for a variety of reasons. (The time between Feanor's children in Felak!verse being just one very minor example of it!) When you consider the wealth of Elven characters and their varying personalities and responses to conflict, though--as you point out--"Elvishness" becomes harder to define.

I would have a hard to criticizing anyone's characters for not being Elvish enough. I can imagine that, shortly after Tolkien's death before The Sil was published, it slipping to a Tolkien community in the form of a fanfic and people immediately leaping on it and saying, "Feanor isn't Elvish enough! No Elf would make such hasty, stupid decisions and then turn around and do such a heinous thing as the Kinslaying! I mean, we thought Thranduil was evol! I think you need to label this AU."

Jenni's right in that there's just so much information to choose from. And I like the fact that even Tolkien's Elves seem to break the mold of "Elvishness" (like the Celeborn example you gave); it makes them more real and much more complex. and gives more liberties to fanfic writers

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

"Feanor isn't Elvish enough! No Elf would make such hasty, stupid decisions and then turn around and do such a heinous thing as the Kinslaying! I mean, we thought Thranduil was evol! I think you need to label this AU."

LOL! I can totally see that!

I think that despite what Tolkien said in one of his letters about it being impossible to write a story from the elven PoV, many people (such as you) do a very good job of it. It seems to me that his elves are really just humans who happen to be disease-free, extra pretty and immortal, and their behaviour can be best understood in that context. /blasphemy

Perhaps I've gone a bit too far, but there it is... Actually I'd like to see how a 3000-year-old human given eternal youth would turn out in comparison.

[dawn_felagund]

I don't think you've gone too far. I happen to agree with you. It's a challenge, yes, to imagine, "What would I do if I had forever to do it?" but it's one of the fun things about writing Elves.

And I always think about how human some of their actions are, especially in The Silmarillion. Their behaviors and problems seem akin to what people experience every day.

*joins you in big blasphemous stewpot* ;-P

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I hoped it wasn't just me!

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I think I've read one essay or comment too many about how Tolkien's elves are totally alien to us when I don't see the evidence for it. I guess it's one of those cases where an author says one thing but their work actually says something different - it seems quite common! But you'll know more about it than I do, since you've actually studied psychology.

[dawn_felagund]

I only wish I could have studied Elves and fanfic! ;) But, yes, I know what you mean. I know that, in my own experience, I tend to have such a wealth of information and ideas about my characters that I cannot possibly share in my stories. But nonetheless, it colors my beliefs about how my characters will behave; readers, though, lack this insight, and so might say, "Well, this seems wholly possible," while I would argue quite vehemently that it is not. But--from their perspective, given the information that they possess--they bring up a valid point.

My chief "experience" with Elves (I wish! :P) comes from the Feanorians. To me, the Feanorians behave like too many humans, responding on emotion rather than trying to find the source of their feelings and search for forgiveness; their first actions, when something doesn't go their way, is often to seek "revenge" and turn to violence. I like these characters for this reason; they seem more real to me and it is easier to relate to them. And so I find Elves, given this, more than possible to write, given how the Feanorians are portrayed.

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Exactly - any story can only present its characters in a very limited range of situations, so the characters' personalities extrapolated from the story by the reader are not necessarily the same personalities that are ascribed by the author. Although there is also the subtext that the author does not intend but is nevertheless noted by readers!

Maybe that's the heart of the matter: being able to identify with characters. If Tolkien had written them without any recognisable human traits they wouldn't be so likeable.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

They can't be totally alien to us, or Human/Elf marriages would not be psychologically possible (even if the two species' physiologies were compatible).

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember reading somewhere in HoME that humans and elves are supposed to be considered as a single species.

[jilba.livejournal.com]

Well, I have noticed many of the elves acted quickly, and in many ways they respond to things much as we would.

Look at Feanorians! From their behaviour, they are very very human. I guess we can write elves much as we wish, depending on their personalities.

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I guess we can write elves much as we wish, depending on their personalities.

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make - elves are diverse!

[jilba.livejournal.com]

And a very good point it is to make, and one more Tolkien fans should pay attention to!

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Can I just mention that, when I started talking about the birthspacing thing, I didn't say that Dawn's Elves weren't elvish enough, only that I personally see the average Elven family differently--although of course Feanor's family can be an exception.

Likewise, everything in this comment should be read as My Impression Only.

It seems to me that Tolkien doesn't really describe Elvishness explicitly, outside of LaCE, so we are left with observing the Elves in his stories. And these are about the only conclusions that I can draw with complete certainty:

1) Elves fetishize hair.
2) Elves go crazy for shiny jewellery.

I am not sure why people would think of them as slow, ponderous types, as pretty much all the Elves we read about--including the King in the Hobbit--seem rather quick-thinking. And definitely passionate. They quarrel as much as humans do, but... and this might be a genuine difference... they seem to think of murder as not just horrible, but rare and unexpected. And of course they are less prone to rape, too. So in a sense they seem morally superior to humans, or at least have different drives. And this brings me to one of the things that really break my suspension of disbelief: when an Elf rapes and/or murders outside of war, and everyone around seems, at best, angry, rather than completely horrified.

And then there is this (http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/rawaths/immortals.html). A bit pretentious, no doubt, but the idea of Elvishness concealed behind the 'commandments' is close to my own. To my mind, Elves all share a love of lore, and art, and nature, to lesser or greater degree, and a special sensitivity to such things. And the second thing that really throws me out of a story is a motif rather common in badslash, where an Elf is ridiculed for being 'merely a scholar' or 'merely an artist' instead of a warrior. That seems completely the wrong way round to me.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

I am not sure why people would think of them as slow, ponderous types, as pretty much all the Elves we read about--including the King in the Hobbit--seem rather quick-thinking.

I think a lot of people confuse patient with ponderous. Elves, as you say, are certainly quick-thinking, and they can certainly be impulsive (as several episodes in the Silm show all to well) - but I can also see them planning a course of action that will take several hundred years to come to fruition. The two traits are not necessarily incompatible; after all, we often plan our lives years, or even decades, into the future, but still manage to mix in impulsive acts. Suddenly deciding to go out for dinner or to drive off to visit an old friend does not preclude thinking ahead about what you need to accomplish in order to graduate from school in 3 years or get that promotion 6 months from now.

To my mind, the true weirdness of Elves comes in other areas: the fact that at least some of them have had face-to-face conversations with angelic beings and know with 100% certainty what will happen to them if they die - and that dying is unnatural for them to begin with. Humans have a generational cycle: we go from being children to young adults to elders; at each step we're displacing another generation and being displaced by a younger one in turn. What would it be like to ALWAYS have your parents and grandparents in your life, and to simultaneously see your kids' kid's kid's children?

[tehta.livejournal.com]

The Ents are ponderous long-lived beings--and the contrast is all too clear.

But I agree that the cyclical nature of human life is very deeply ingrained in the way we think. We are all raised to replace those who came before us, and then are replaced in our turn: basic phenomena like father-son rivalries have their roots in this. What happens if nobody ever gets replaced? If nobody ever retires? It must be impossible to get tenure at Tirion University.

The only thing I can think of is that Elves make their own cycles in a way: that they shift interests, from time to time, and keep trying new (or old but near-forgotten) things.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can think of is that Elves make their own cycles in a way: that they shift interests, from time to time, and keep trying new (or old but near-forgotten) things.

I'd think they'd have to do that, if ony to avoid terminal boredom. Even the most fascinating field would surely start to get dull after a few thousand years!

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Maybe they have a very short attention span, or something? So they can't remember that they're supposed to be bored?

They'd clearly need a different way of keeping track of memories.

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I didn't say that Dawn's Elves weren't elvish enough, only that I personally see the average Elven family differently

No, you didn't, and I wouldn't dream of accusing you of it! I did not intend any criticism of either you or your opinion. I was just using that discussion as an example of two people having very different ideas which are both founded in canon.

If someone wanted to write Feanor's children all being born within a quarter of a century they could justify it with the example of Dior and Nimloth, or they could have them spread out over 40 000 years by combining the evidence in 'Myths Transformed' and 'The Annals of Aman'.

I am not sure why people would think of them as slow, ponderous types

The elves in the movies, perhaps?

they seem to think of murder as not just horrible, but rare and unexpected. And of course they are less prone to rape, too. So in a sense they seem morally superior to humans, or at least have different drives

I think that human reaction to crime depends to some extent on the size of settlement: the larger the city, the less shocked people are when there is a murder or a rape. In Exeter (population 80 000, not including students) it is a dreadful shock to everyone when a violent crime is commited, definitely not expected and extremely rare, whereas in London it's almost an everyday event.

For the most part (Feanor and sons at their worst exempted) Tolkien's elves seem to represent behavioural and social ideals that humans should try to live up to.

To my mind, Elves all share a love of lore, and art, and nature, to lesser or greater degree, and a special sensitivity to such things.

But so do humans, at least in my experience. The same goes for the hair and shiny jewellery things.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

But so do humans, at least in my experience. The same goes for the hair and shiny jewellery things.

Well, I was kind of joking about the hair and jewellery, although I am pretty sure that Tolkien explicitly stated that hair *was* particularly attractive to Elves. As for the other part, I congratulate you on your experience: I am not so lucky. I know many people who find reading and looking at art tedious, or even foolish, and many other people who think walking through a forest is inconvenient rather than pleasant. And I would go so far as to say that over half the people I know value money far higher than knowledge. (And maybe they're right--I just think the proportions would be different for Elves.)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I am pretty sure that Tolkien explicitly stated that hair *was* particularly attractive to Elves

I seem to remember reading that too.

I am not so lucky. I know many people who find reading and looking at art tedious, or even foolish, and many other people who think walking through a forest is inconvenient rather than pleasant

Actually I just remembered that I have met someone like that, but he was so uninteresting that I forgot about him completely until he walked past my office a few minutes ago - there may well be others who were equally unmemorable!

I really enjoyed all your stories on ff.net, and if they represent your interpretation of Tolkien's elves, then I guess I agree with your interpretation. I suppose what I was trying to say in my original post was that 'Your elves aren't behaving elvishly enough' isn't a particularly valid criticism in many cases, given the range of behaviour Tolkien wrote.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think many of my comedy Elves could do with an extra dose of Elvishness--but they're certainly not unElvish enough that I'd complain if they were written by someone else. I see from your other comment, though, that you've found the stories I *would* complain about...


And thanks for letting me know you enjoyed my stuff!

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

After spending my coffee break this afternoon looking at examples of genuinely awful LoTR fic I admit to being 100% wrong about characterisation of elves. There is such a thing as elves behaving unelvishly, and there are far worse things for elves to be than decisive!

*goes off to look for brain soap*

[aramel-calawen.livejournal.com]

There, there. We all know about badfic. Here, have some Bleeprin. Or Bleepuvor, if you like.

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Thanks - I'm new enough to the fandom that I haven't really met much badfic before!