SWG Re-Read: Banner and Icon post

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

This is our Banner and Icon post! So far, lignota, ljusastjarnan, the_winterwitch, indy1776 and yours truly have provided graphics for this project. Many thanks!

I am not yet including the banners for upcoming chapters, but this post is going to be updated regularly, so any missing banners or icons are going to appear by and by. We'll let you know about updates on one of the other Re-read posts!

Feel free to use these graphics from their current location on the SWG Reading Group photobucket, or upload them to your image host of choice, whichever you prefer!

Any artists who want to contribute further banners or icons (especially for participants) are very welcome to do so! Please follow the guidelines for using images on SWG.) Some suggested text: SWG Re-read 2014, SWG Re-read, Silm Re-read 2014, Silm Re-read (or Silmarillion, if your graphic is large enough), or the individual chapter titles. Size-wise for banners, we're flexible, but something between 260x120 px to 500x250 px is preferred. Icons should be no larger than 100x100 px, of course.



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Photo credits to NASA, ESA, and the SOHO-EIT Consortium.
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Comments

[independence1776]

Have fun with that! I tried to read it and never made it through. If you're looking for HoME, I personally like Morgoth's Ring the best, but the last three volumes are what I've found most useful. (Caveat being that as I mentioned earlier, I haven't read much of the first volumes.)

I don't know much of anything about reddit; I waste too much time online as it is to add yet another site to it. Tumblr… I'm there for the pictures and a few friends. Discussions there are painful.

het vs slash vs gen writers??! Whaat, hahahah, how is that even a thing.

That's how it was for many, many years and still is in some places. (See what I mean about a different subculture here? The fact that there's this divide doesn't seem strange at all to me.) There's a large contingent of conservative Christians in this fandom who-- I'm generalizing here-- don't like slash or sexually explicit or graphically violent material. So there's always going to be that divide. But it has gotten better in recent years.

I have to admit, this fandom is archived excellently. Slash archives, archives centering around elves, pairings/characters etc.

Yup! But the fandom's large enough that we could do that. It keeps the wank down for the most part, because people can stick with like-minded folks. (The no-slash archives and vocal minority are a main reason why slash-only archives exist. It was seriously nasty for while.)

Which is what makes jumping into conversation with you folks somewhat intimidating, because any interpretation I have could probably be taken apart with the finesse of experience, hhahahah. Besides, any opinion that I've formed has probably been discussed and taken apart before, because let's face it, we humans aren't terribly original in thought as a rule, with few exceptions.

But your opinions are still valuable. Maybe you do have a new insight or maybe we can direct you to previous discussions or whatever. Lyra and I seriously do not want this to be exclusive to people who have been around a while.

That's interesting! I've definitely heard that PJ's elves are too solemn, and his dwaves (or dwarf) too jovial, when it should be the other way round.

I can't speak for the dwarves-- I'm not interested in them-- but the Elves. Yes, they're too serious. But a large part of it is based on Elrond's characterization in the movies-- aka completely opposite of what it is in the books. (He's my favorite character, so I'm biased.) They're too… ethereal… in the movies when they're not in the books. Different and Other, yes-- but not untouchable.

A GoT-esque adaption with less sex, would, however, be glorious.

I think that's the only way an adaption would work. (Note that I'm not watching GoT-- I barely made it through the first book-- so I'm going by what I've heard.)

There's nothing wrong with OTPs! It's just that what I've noticed in other fandoms is that there's a focus on them to the exclusion of all else (egregious examples being forgetting the rest of the world and characters even exist) and that people won't read anything outside of them. As for common tropes: soulmates (not in the "we're meant to be together" sense but in the "we're meant to be together because we were born with each others' names on our bodies" one), ABO, time travel/time loops, coffee shop/whatever AUs, bodyswap, etc.

It just seems that there's less a focus on (I'm probably saying this badly) twisting canon to fit a prompt versus twisting a prompt to fit within canon, whatever interpretation someone has of it. People in my corner of Silm fandom tend to go for alternate interpretations rather than writing for a trend or common assumption. Another example: Tolkien fandom-- apart from the Hobbit movies-- doesn't have a kink meme, and the time someone tried to start one, it fizzled in short order. It's just not how we roll.

(Gah. I don't know how much that explained anything or if I confused you or what.)

[ljusastjarnan.livejournal.com]

Hahah, no no you haven't confused me, your reply is very interesting. :")

That's how it was for many, many years and still is in some places.
That's amazing to me! This does bring us back to the demographics of this fandom, because I'm fairly certain that conservative and christian is a very, very minor portion of current popular fandom's like Hannibal and GoT and whatnot, which is so ridiculously drenched in slash and violence and sex and all mannerisms of terrible things and terrible people. Even more established fandoms like Star Trek and Star Wars is pretty lacking of the religious/conservative--- though I wager to guess that it shouldn't really be surprising considering Tolkien did, after all, write a rather fatalist story based on his own beliefs. Honestly, I find a lot of the Silmarillion morally disturbing.

The no-slash archives and vocal minority are a main reason why slash-only archives exist. It was seriously nasty for while
Eeep. Why can't people get along? D': I'm glad it's getting better now, either way.

I can't speak for the dwarves-- I'm not interested in them-- but the Elves. Yes, they're too serious. But a large part of it is based on Elrond's characterization in the movies-- aka completely opposite of what it is in the books. (He's my favorite character, so I'm biased.) They're too… ethereal… in the movies when they're not in the books. Different and Other, yes-- but not untouchable.
To be honest, I quite like how ethereal the elves were, though I do agree that PJ makes them far too untouchable. Also too... benevolent and good. I have to add the caveat that I haven't finished lotr (which I actually found less interesting than the Silmarillion), so I don't know how elves acted there, but they certainly don't represent all that was good and fair in the world, which is the impression that many people get from the movies.

(Note that I'm not watching GoT-- I barely made it through the first book-- so I'm going by what I've heard.)
Oh thank God. I feel like I'm a terrible fan of fantasy for not liking the series. But I seriously don't. XD

Hmm, it's true for the Silmarillion, definitely, but not so much for the rest of the Tolkien fandom; lotr and the Hobbit. People have definitely forged their OTPs, replete with soul-mate and ABO tropes, or the equivalent of it back in the days. Aragorn/Legolas comes to mind. Oh god Aragorn/Legolas. It's almost a rite of passage for some people, hahahha. And then there's Legolas/Gimli, and the contingent of Aragorn/Arwen fans, with the indignant Eowyn/Aragorn fans. Okay, now that I think back to that time, the slash/het brigade definitely existed there. I witnessed a small portion of it before I NOPE'd out of there. Honestly, though, the A/L fandom is notorious for writing Arwen out as an evil harpy or into non-existence, which I find equally hilarious and eye-brow raising.

It's funny how even different parts of the Tolkien fandom has their own subculture, because it is so large.

[independence1776]

I think part of why there's a lot is that he's "fantasy that's acceptable to read" or "he's one of us" or something. I honestly don't know, but I've gotten a sense over the years from some places that there's an assumption that everyone in the fandom's that flavor of Christian, and it causes friction when people run up against different viewpoints. (From both sides of the spectrum; not just the conservative Christians.) I think there's room for both/more/whatever viewpoints.

though I wager to guess that it shouldn't really be surprising considering Tolkien did, after all, write a rather fatalist story based on his own beliefs. Honestly, I find a lot of the Silmarillion morally disturbing.

Huh. I don't see it as fatalist at all. Morally disturbing, sometimes, but not overall. So I'm curious.

Why can't people get along?

For the simple reason people think they have the right to tell other people how to enjoy or interpret or create things. It isn't exclusive to Tolkien fandom; I've seen far too much of that behavior all over the Internet.

so I don't know how elves acted there, but they certainly don't represent all that was good and fair in the world, which is the impression that many people get from the movies

First off: finish reading LotR! I adore that book. But the Silm's my favorite. As for how they acted-- they're more benevolent and good, but they're also more detached from the world (which is where PJ got his interpretation from). But there are reasons for it, and how far the detachment goes depends on which settlement you're talking about.

it's true for the Silmarillion, definitely, but not so much for the rest of the Tolkien fandom; lotr and the Hobbit.

Yup. Which is why I was talking specifically about the Silm corner. I don't know much about how the LotR fandom operates nowadays (I started off there), but the Hobbit fandom-- to me-- seems more movie-based and definitely in the general fandom subculture than the Tolkien fandom. The separate Hobbit fandom didn't really exist before the movies came out.

Well, yeah-- OTPs have and will always exist. People will always write canon partners horribly (which I abhor). I don't see anything wrong with OTPs in and of themselves; I have them myself. It's just that when there's a small amount of stories (1800 on SWG, about the same on AO3, 3700 on ff.net-- and all of those have crossposted stories, so the actual numbers are somewhat lower), it's harder to read stories that focus only on them. (You might be able to manage with either Maedhros/Fingon and Nerdanel/Fëanor, but that's about it.) So there isn't as much of a drive to write a romance-focused story, more of one to write a story that has romance in it along with other subplots.

It's funny how even different parts of the Tolkien fandom has their own subculture, because it is so large.

It is! But at the same time, there's still more similarities in Tolkien fandom than differences, to the point where I feel comfortable saying, "Tolkien fandom has a different subculture than other fandoms." It probably helps at this point that while there will and should always be newcomers, there's a core group of people who have been around for years and will remain around. Tolkien fandom at its heart is monofannish.

[ljusastjarnan.livejournal.com]

There's not much of "magic" in Tolkien's works, per se, I mean sure there's dragons and dwarves, but nobody is turning teacups into rabbits and the Valar can easily be construed as angelic powers, I suppose. The elven race aren't terribly outlandish, either. Perhaps that is another factor?

I honestly don't know, but I've gotten a sense over the years from some places that there's an assumption that everyone in the fandom's that flavor of Christian, and it causes friction when people run up against different viewpoints.
What do you mean? :"0

Huh. I don't see it as fatalist at all. Morally disturbing, sometimes, but not overall. So I'm curious.
Fatalism is the wrong word for it; I wasn't commentating on free will or lack thereof, more of the inevitability of that "doom" that is put upon the Noldor, ostensibly because they disobeyed the Valar.

For the simple reason people think they have the right to tell other people how to enjoy or interpret or create things.
Intolerance exists everywhere indeed. :"( I've only experienced the silly ship wars, though. Nothing terribly offensive, nor have I seen anyone up in arms about interpretations. Lineage sometimes can be a bit overwhelming though. Just recently, an RPer and I fell out because I insisted that Orodreth was Finrod brother rather than cousin (how was I to know it was printing error?! Tolkien himself kept changing his mind =__=).

First off: finish reading LotR! I adore that book.
I will! Right after we finish the trilogy re-run's... Then I can comment more on it, haha. XD

People will always write canon partners horribly (which I abhor).
I'm sure there are fantastic fanfic based on canon pairs? D':

I don't see anything wrong with OTPs in and of themselves; I have them myself.
I'm happy about the lack of OTPs mostly because this means I have wealth of more things to read-- Unfortunately, I don't often ship popular pairs within fandoms. :"(

It's just that when there's a small amount of stories (1800 on SWG, about the same on AO3, 3700 on ff.net-- and all of those have crossposted stories, so the actual numbers are somewhat lower), it's harder to read stories that focus only on them.
I would have thought it the huuuge cast was a reason too. Many of said cast are major characters whose interaction with each other still remains fairly sparse.

There do exist small fandoms that only focus on one single pairing. And yes! Lot's of interesting plots and interpretations, and I often learn more about the lore from these fanfics, which is awesome, though then there's the problem of being unable to distinguish between "canon" (and I use this term very loosely) and the universe within that particular fanfiction. Wikipedia and footnotes helps with that though.

[independence1776]

There's a lot of magic (especially in LotR); it's just subtle and not Harry Potter-style. I think what makes the difference is that Tolkien was devoutly Catholic and it comes across in his books.

more of the inevitability of that "doom" that is put upon the Noldor, ostensibly because they disobeyed the Valar.

It wasn't just disobeying the Valar. It was also the Kinslaying. Before that happened, the only people who were exiled were Fëanor and his sons, partly because Fëanor broke the law (he had not yet been allowed to return to Tirion) but also because of their Oath that basically says, "Get in our way and we'll kill you." The doom was brought about because of their actions and the consequences of them.

Basically, that anti-slash people have attacked slashers and vice versa. People think that the only way to be a "true Tolkien fan" is to do fandom their way and no other. (My first experience of that was the person who wrote my "gateway to the fandom" fic yanking everything offline because she was attacked for writing Aragorn/Legolas.)

Then you've been lucky and I'm glad for that. I've been around too long to not have seen the nasty stuff.

I insisted that Orodreth was Finrod brother rather than cousin (how was I to know it was printing error?! Tolkien himself kept changing his mind =__=).

I'm sorry you fell out over that. You will find many, many fics in the fandom where Orodreth is Finrod's brother. Many people don't read HoME, and if they have, they treat it as a "pick and choose your canon" thing. I personally take the Silm as the primary text (with a few exceptions). It also wasn't quite a printing error: with the information Christopher had at the time, that fact was true. He only discovered otherwise years later.

I'm sure there are fantastic fanfic based on canon pairs?

There are! What I meant is that I'm very tired of the "turn X evil or mean or whatever to facilitate a break-up/cheating/death/etc. so my OTP can get together."

More reading material is always good. :) But give fics with pairing you don't normally read a chance, too. Fics on SWG are usually high quality.

I would have thought it the huuuge cast was a reason too. Many of said cast are major characters whose interaction with each other still remains fairly sparse.

That's never stopped anyone! :P

Lot's of interesting plots and interpretations, and I often learn more about the lore from these fanfics, which is awesome,

Me, too! I learned the Quenya names from HoME, but reading fic helped drill them in.

though then there's the problem of being unable to distinguish between "canon" (and I use this term very loosely) and the universe within that particular fanfiction.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, so please correct me if I'm wrong: you have problems distinguishing between what's known from the books and people's interpretations? Some of that may be HoME-related, I think. Another part may be that there's so little we know so there's nothing to do but extrapolate. But the wealth of interpretations is something I can't condemn as a bad thing.

[ljusastjarnan.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the fact that it's not overt and in your face also helps, as the bible also had quite a bit of 'magic', ala reincarnation and miracles. Mythical creatures not so much, though, afaik. The thing about elves, as I was regarding the Silmarillion, though, is that I often forget they are elves, and the difference between elves and humans, apart from mortality/immortality seem to be quite subtle.

It wasn't just disobeying the Valar. It was also the Kinslaying.
That is true, though perhaps on my first reading I thought the doom of Mandos had been laid on the Noldor even before the kinslaying.

It also wasn't quite a printing error: with the information Christopher had at the time, that fact was true. He only discovered otherwise years later.
Yes, which is why I grouched about how Tolkien kept changing his mind. XD I would have preferred a single canon, tbh, but I suppose it doesn't really matter.

What I meant is that I'm very tired of the "turn X evil or mean or whatever to facilitate a break-up/cheating/death/etc. so my OTP can get together."
Ah, yes, the old and tried trope. That irritates me as well.
I've a wealth of stuff to read and not much time to read it, but SWG does indeed have a great amount of amazing fics, and a multitude of pairings (yaaay). :"DD

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, so please correct me if I'm wrong: you have problems distinguishing between what's known from the books and people's interpretations?
I meant that I can't be certain if they are taking the story from other Tolkien books published/scourged from his notes or if they just made that part up as part of their fanfic-- this was mainly when I first started, though. I've since become a tad more knowledgeable about different versions and lineages of the legendarium. I think the re-read is helping clear things up too. :")

At least, I'm not as confused as before, which always makes things more enjoyable.

[independence1776]

The thing about elves, as I was regarding the Silmarillion, though, is that I often forget they are elves, and the difference between elves and humans, apart from mortality/immortality seem to be quite subtle.

That's because Elves are human, as per Letter 153: "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event: […]." (Pandemonium_213 has an essay on this subject if you're interested.)

A single canon may be easier, but I like the pick-and-choose of HoME. (And at this end of time, it definitely doesn't matter. Tolkien's not around any longer to ask.)

but SWG does indeed have a great amount of amazing fics, and a multitude of pairings

One of the many, many reasons I love the site.

I meant that I can't be certain if they are taking the story from other Tolkien books published/scourged from his notes or if they just made that part up as part of their fanfic-- this was mainly when I first started, though. I've since become a tad more knowledgeable about different versions and lineages of the legendarium.

Okay! Yeah, that was confusing back when I entered it, too. (Sometimes I still worry if I'm missing something obvious, but that's probably not reassuring. :P)

I think the re-read is helping clear things up too. :")

I'm glad to hear that!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I meant that I can't be certain if they are taking the story from other Tolkien books published/scourged from his notes or if they just made that part up as part of their fanfic-- this was mainly when I first started, though. I've since become a tad more knowledgeable about different versions and lineages of the legendarium.


I think everyone's got this problem when they start reading Silm fanfic. There seem to be four basic solutions:
1) Everything That Isn't In The Published Silm Isn't Canon, You Heretic
2) If Tolkien Has Written It Down At Some Point, It's Canon, Just Pick and Choose
3) If Tolkien Hasn't Explicitly Contradicted It At Some Point, I'm Fine With It
or
4) It Doesn't Matter; Either It Works, Then It Is Good, Or It Doesn't Work, Then It Sucks.

Personally, I tend to fluctuate between 2 and 3; some authors are so good (or bad ;)) that 4 is the obvious choice, though. And when I talk to someone of the 1 persuasion, I'm very strictly 3... ;)