(no subject)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Hi folks, I'm not sure if this is exactly the right place to query the Silm itself, but I thought if anyone's likely to know the answer, they'll probably be here.

I was re-reading 'The Shaping of Middle-earth' this morning and I was reminded of something that I had noticed before and wondered about. In the 'History of Middle Earth' series - the whole of it, as far as I can tell - Curufin is Feanor's fourth son and Caranthir his fifth, but in the Silm they reverse birth order. However, this is only in the family tree given (which has errors) and in one listing of the Sons of Feanor (on the other three occasions the order is Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir).

Does anyone know why, or what the sigificance of this is (if any!)?

ETA: I made jedda think about it yesterday evening, and she was kind (or evil) enough to point out that it's almost certainly an(other) editing mistake by Christopher Tolkien. Occam's razor, I guess, which is better than another 'Gil-galad's father' issue.

Now that would be an interesting challenge. I might even have to post it - Write a fic in which all Tolkien's changing opinions on G-g's parentage are correct!

Comments

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I personally have no idea, but I chalk it up to HoME being evil!! As for significance, well, it can cause significant annoyance, but other than that, I really don't know. Personally, I don't think it matters much. I always think of it as Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, since that's how I first saw it. *shrug*
My two cents...and I know there are a few others who also find HoME evil. ;)

[dawn_felagund]

I know there are a few others who also find HoME evil. ;)

::whistles innocently::

HoMe? Evil? Not me....

I also do not know if there is an "official" reason. I always figured that it was a minor detail to Tolkien and he was undecided and Ce-Ca-Cu is just the version that made it into the Sil. Of course, having Fair and Dark right next to each other makes for some nicely poetic contrast too :)

I am more apt to wonder why Celegorm and Curufin hang out together when they seem to have quite opposite interests. I would expect Celegorm and Caranthir. Well, I have my hare-brained theories, to be expounded in a long, endless fanfic someday, but in the meantime, I leave the rest of you with that question....

::tosses bunny and runs like Hades::

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

*ducks bunny throws self to the ground in hopes of dodging nuzgul*

What are your theories, Dawn?? *innocent look*

[dawn_felagund]

ROFLMAO!
Oh, I'm sorry, Tarion, I thought I just heard you say "innocent" in reference to yourself. Excuse me, I apparently have been negligent in cleaning my ears or something.

My theories are harebrained and entirely fictitious. Nice try, though. But you shall have to wait for me to write the story. ;D

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sorry, Tarion, I thought I just heard you say "innocent" in reference to yourself.

I didn't say I was innocent, I said I was wearing an innocent look. You should know that appearances can be deceiving. ;)

I apparently have been negligent in cleaning my ears or something.

This is entirely possible. :P

But you shall have to wait for me to write the story. ;D

Ah, well, I tried! As long as there are not long periods of nothingness between stories, I shall be content! :D

[(Anonymous)]

I have wondered the same for many a year. At the end, and since TS and related works are, most of them, unfinished, I am afraid we will never know what the Professor had in mind :|

I am more apt to wonder why Celegorm and Curufin hang out together when they seem to have quite opposite interests. I would expect Celegorm and Caranthir.

Ooooh, let us speculate? ;D Celegorm and Caranthir, hmmm... two hotheads together? They would strangle each other as soon as Curufin or MAedhros left the room ;)

While Celegorm and Curufin worked along pretty well precisely because they were pretty different and had opposite interests; Celegorm's the strength, the arm, and Curufin's the head, the brain ;)

At least I always pictured them thus.

Btw, did I mention I love Caranthir too? ;D

[nelyo.livejournal.com]

*frowns upon the Anonymous post*

Next time I'll log in to post and all :P

(Yeah, that was me, and the italics are all messed and... *weeps quietly in her corner*)

[dawn_felagund]

Ooooh, let us speculate? ;D Celegorm and Caranthir, hmmm... two hotheads together? They would strangle each other as soon as Curufin or MAedhros left the room ;)

Hmm...true.

It is interesting, your idea about how their "talents" complimenting each other. I once worked on a story called "Election Farce of Nargothrond." Were those two ever fun to write precisely for that reason! :D

Btw, did I mention I love Caranthir too? ;D

Are there any Feanorians that you do not love? ;)

The answer to that, for me, is no :)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, let us speculate? ;D Celegorm and Caranthir, hmmm... two hotheads together?

Good point. (The tiny hobbit in the far part of my brain which controls typing just wrote "good pint". Not even kidding :P)

Btw, did I mention I love Caranthir too? ;D

Doesn't everyone?

Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[nelyo.livejournal.com]

Does Angrod like him? :?

As for typos... My best one was to write (and to post it :|), while discussing about Rivendell:

"... by the whores of the Bruinen" (instead "shores")

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Does Angrod like him? :?

LOL!

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

"... by the whores of the Bruinen"

LOL!!

Does Angrod like him?

Does Caranthir like Angrod. Does it even pose a threat? ;P

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

It just reminded me of the Angrod's council scene in the Silm. You know the one:

But Caranthir, who loved not the sons of Finarfin, and was the harshest of the brothers and the most quick to anger, cried aloud: 'Yea more! Let not the sons of Finarfin run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark Elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord of the Noldor, though their mother be of other kin.'

Then Angrod was wrathful and went forth from the council.

That, for me, is the definative Caranthir moment!

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Right, of course. I only meant that Angrod & Caranthir both disliking each other doesn't really have to do with me liking them. Does that make sense?? Probably not, because I'm not even sure myself what I'm trying to say...:P

Anyways! Shall we say we're agreeing to agree? Because I think we're agreeing...

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree that we're agreeing. It does make sense!


My supervisor and one of the other lecturers here at Exeter have a habit of agreeing with each other at full volume across the senior common room and then not realising they actually have agreed. I hope I don't start doing the same.

Re: Typos (warning: obscene word :P)

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Yay!!

That is absolutely hilarious!

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much what I thought about Celegorm and Curufin's friendship, although I think that Celegorm had a fair share of brains and Curufin wasn't exactly weak, just not up to fighting Beren!

I've added an extra bit to my post with my (or rather jedda's) new theory.

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I now have been persuaded to think that Tolkien wrote out Celegorm the Fair, Caranthir the Dark once - for the poetic contrast, of course - then Christopher Tolkien saw that, wrote it down in the family tree and then canonised it in the Silm before reading the rest of his father's notes.

Celegorm and Caranthir? Perhaps Caranthir is 'too uncertain of mood' even for Celegorm?

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

I just replied to this then accidentally deleted it! Never mind, I'll try again!

It's only really relevant if you're writing young!feanorian fic, and even then it's not very significant.

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you can pretty much say "So...which one of you wants to be the younger one today?" and be okay...well, okay assuming you avoid any mishaps involving Feanorians...

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

assuming you avoid any mishaps involving Feanorians...

I'll hold you responsible for any plot bunnies that generates!

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I'll hold you responsible for any plot bunnies that generates!

I shall gladly accept! So long as the bunnies are not biting me, I'm perfectly happy to generate them! :)

[arandil13.livejournal.com]

HoME? Evil?

AMEN SISTAH!

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I knew you'd agree!!! :D

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Just found out about this community. So sorry to start with self-pimpage, but

Now that would be an interesting challenge. I might even have to post it - Write a fic in which all Tolkien's changing opinions on G-g's parentage are correct!

really rings a bell. In fact, it was a similar idea that inspired me to write this (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1/)...

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

That's hilarious! Poor Gil-galad, though.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

I know! But G-G being passed around like a hot potato during his formative years is canon, I'm afraid.