Writing the Elves

[remix17.livejournal.com]

I'm still pretty new to Tolkien, even though I've learned a lot about the mythos, but I am having trouble with a project I want to write--specifically, having trouble with some of the Elven details.

My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.

Any help would be appreciated.
 

Comments

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Why do you think that? I think they still had followers at Amon Ereb, limited, but they were not alone.

Simply because what happened when they stole the jewels (all alone), every part in the Silm after Sirion states obviously that they were alone and had none that followed them.

Following the discussion - according to HoME it was Maedhros who took mercy upon twins, while in Silmarillion it is Maglor (Christopher's edit or Tolkien's will). Later old versions of legendary say Maedhros and Maglor finally landed on Balar before the war, which some people finds out very suspicious - like after the 3 kinslayings anyone would let them in. I say they had the twins as a bargain or a threat - kids were captured as hostages what ever happened between Maglor and them next.

I know that, in HOME IV there is actually a nice table of the change of thoughts the professor had. I discussed that with Dawn a while ago and it's very interesting. The little ones were taken as kids and set free as kids near Sirion, so whatever they thought on getting a ship to Balar and knock on the doors, that is pure speculation and frankly, I don't find it interesting unless I can get a quote from canon (and no I haven't seen that one, but if it is only mentioned with references regarding to Maedhros, than I missed it (I never made a canon character study of him as I did with Maglor and Celegorm)). Maedhros doesn't have my heart as the other two have.

What do you think on that? I see you rather place them in Ossiriand. Which is quite logical since they knew elves there well and woods itself, but maybe they weren't welcomed there, too. If they always bring the curse with them...

Errr I never said I would rather place them in Ossiriand. Their last known refuge is Mnt Dolmed which is Dwarven territory. As far as I am concerned they can be anywhere. They are wandering, without followers.

In the end - were Elrond and Elros twins?

Yes, they were. It's somewhere in the tales of the years (HOME) and littered elsewhere too.

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

I didn't know about the Mount Dolmed, that's interesting. Speculations. Noldorin kinslayers hiding among dwarves ;) I guess dwarves didn't know of it or let them in because of the old alliance during Nirnaeth, because of Caranthir or because they didn't like Sindar (if these were these dwarves), so they tolerated elves who killed their enemies...

"Simply because what happened when they stole the jewels (all alone), every part in the Silm after Sirion states obviously that they were alone and had none that followed them."

Hmm, they have stolen the jewels after the War of Wrath, and they kept twins after Sirion.
Hmmm, maybe you are right unless a line in HoME says different, I just don't know it ;)
I'm too influenced by fan fiction where they are not alone, damn. I remember a part of their followers started to fight against them during the attack on Sirion, but not all and many survived this attack. For sure they were alone after the War of Wrath.

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Mount Dolmed was their refuge after Nirnaeth. Caranthir was alive back then so yeah, connections and such.

Few of the Eldar went ever to Nogrod and Belegost, save Eöl of Nan Elmoth and Maeglin his son; but the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand, and they made a great road that passed under the shoulders of Mount Dolmed and followed the course of the River Ascar, crossing Gelion at Sarn Athrad, the Ford of Stones, where battle after befell. Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them. But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men, because of their love and reverence for Aulë; and the gems of the Noldor they praised above all other wealth. In the darkness of Arda already the Dwarves wrought great works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than silver or gold.

From the Silm, so it isn't such a strange thought. Except for Celegorm, all were followers of Aulë.

How the seven escaped from the Nirnaeth:
Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain, for they drew together, and gathering a remnant of the Noldor and the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped far away towards Mount Dolmed in the east.

The realm of Fingon was no more; and the sons of Fëanor wandered as leaves before the wind. Their arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild and woodland life beneath the feet of Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old.

Hmmmm I just had a Celegorm bunny poppin up. :c)

For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days); but Maedhros and Maglor won the day, though they alone remained thereafter of the sons of Fëanor, for both Amrod and Amras were slain.

No mentioning of people following Maglor and Maedhros.

And when this new star was seen at evening, Maedhros spoke to Maglor his brother, and he said: 'Surely that is a Silmaril that shines now in the West?'
And Maglor answered: [cut because LJ wants me to] Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt.

No followers mentioned.

Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath; for they would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even against the victorious host of Valinor, even though they stood alone against all the world. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him.

No followers mentioned.

I'm too influenced by fan fiction where they are not alone, damn. I remember a part of their followers started to fight against them during the attack on Sirion, but not all and many survived this attack. For sure they were alone after the War of Wrath.

Well that wasn't so strange, see above:

In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days);

But yes, fan fiction does that to you.

Bear in mind, please that what I think happens in Rhapsy!verse does not always equal canon ;) The Inner Light (http://www.scribeoz.com/fanfic/story.php?no=2884) one of my stories, is most definitely an example of that. Yet it makes such a nice fit in canon, imho.

[sirielle.livejournal.com]

*I'm sorry, I must bes sleeping, posting it for teh 3rd time now.*

"mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old."

That's what I remembered,that they landed in Ossiriand.

But the other quotes you give while they say nothing of the followers, they say also nothing on lack of them. There might be someone with them, just it's not mentioned. Elrond and Elros are not mentioned, either, yet they were by their side up to the war. Or maybe not, that's not that clear.
All we can red is they were last of sons of Feanor and that they didn't obey Eonwe.

About the Amon Ereb refugee - from the discussion at Hobbiton, post by M.L. (though this is not quotation, rather my summary of facts he gave):

Elwing's twins were born in the year 532, 58 years before the end of the I Age.
The Tale of Years (WJ: 348) - Maedhros took pity upon the twins (not Maglor as Silmarillion says), anyway it was in the year 538.
In the year 540 Amon Ereb was destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor run away to Balar. (LR: 124-154).

David Saló moved the date of Amon Ereb seizure and brothers escape to Balar 4 years further onto year 544 of the I Age.

And that's all so far. There is also Elrond's sentence in LotR when he remembers the hosts of Valar going to the War of Wrath, so he must have seen them and rather in Beleriand, not on Balar.
But was it under Maedhros or Ereinion's care? No data.
I keep version they kept kids till Valar came, later I don't know. But I also let Maedhros and Maglor land on Balar, where they would give the kids back or keep by their side as guarantee of their safety.

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

That's what I remembered,that they landed in Ossiriand.

First to Mount Dolmed with their followers, then their league fell apart and well, they scattered. An important order of events.

Elwing's twins were born in the year 532, 58 years before the end of the I Age.
The Tale of Years (WJ: 348) - Maedhros took pity upon the twins (not Maglor as Silmarillion says), anyway it was in the year 538.
In the year 540 Amon Ereb was destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor run away to Balar. (LR: 124-154).

David Saló moved the date of Amon Ereb seizure and brothers escape to Balar 4 years further onto year 544 of the I Age.

This is too tricky and too far of Canon. As much as I respect Saló, changing dates is just very wrong, especially in a discussion.

The Tale of Years (WJ: 348) - Maedhros took pity upon the twins (not Maglor as Silmarillion says), anyway it was in the year 538.

That would make them six. I recall their parents being 26 when they were born. Btw, the pity taking changed at least 4 times. Just fyi. Also it was said that Maglor killed himself in that same plan and that didn't quite happen either.

In the year 540 Amon Ereb was destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor run away to Balar. (LR: 124-154).

Running away doesn't say getting there. I believe the dates are completely out of whack, because the kinslaying happened in 527 (somewhere in HOME and I am not going to dig for it, but that date has always been very stable).

But was it under Maedhros or Ereinion's care? No data.

They were set free at Sirion by the two, so concequently they would end up under Gil-galad's care. It really makes sense.