Writing the Elves
Mar. 6th, 2007 08:22 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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silwritersguildI'm still pretty new to Tolkien, even though I've learned a lot about the mythos, but I am having trouble with a project I want to write--specifically, having trouble with some of the Elven details.
My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.
Any help would be appreciated.
My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Date: 2007-03-06 02:34 pm (UTC)Second big war... The one at the end of the First Age: The War of Wrath (http://www.henneth-annun.net/resources/events_view.cfm?evid=34)? With the destruction of the major elven realms, and the sinking of Beleriand? I haven't read the Silm in awhile, but I think that's the one you're referring to.
When we're talking about the Silm, there are a ton more possibilities for creating original elven communities, as opposed to LOTR, where many elves *have* gone West, and those who remain are fairly restricted to the communities listed. In the First Age, there were still a lot of elves in Middle-earth, and it wasn't even a possibility to go West: that was opened up only after the War of Wrath (I *think*), when the Valar forgave the Noldor and permitted them to come back home. I don't think going west was ever an option for the Sindar et al.; the Valar seem to not care about the elves that remained in Middle-earth and never went to Valinor: they're forever concerned with the Noldor.
OK, before I go into a ton of detail: is that the correct war you're referring to?
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Date: 2007-03-06 03:45 pm (UTC)*takes notes above*
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Date: 2007-03-06 04:03 pm (UTC)You know that there are at least 4 huge battles in between?
The rundown:
The First Battle of Beleriand was fought before the Noldor arrived, and was fought by the Sindar and Laiquendi. Elu Thingol, King of Doriath and Lord of Beleriand, led them against the armies of Morgoth, the Great Enemy, the Dark Lord.
The Second Battle was Dagor-nuin-Giliath, or Battle-under-Stars, fought by the Noldor following Fëanor and his Seven Sons, in which the Noldor were victorious but Fëanor was slain.
During this battle the Battle of Lhammoth was fought by the host of Fingolfin.
The Third Battle was Dagor Aglareb, or Glorious Battle, which led to the Siege of Angband. Various minor battles were fought during the Siege which are not counted.
The Fourth Battle was the Dagor Bragollach, or Battle of Sudden Flame, in which the Siege was broken and Fingolfin was slain. Minas Tirith was taken by Sauron 2 years afterward.
The Fifth Battle was the Nirnaeth Arnoediad or Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which the Noldor were utterly defeated.
The Last Battle of Beleriand, called the Great Battle and the War of Wrath, ended the First Age of Arda and destroyed Beleriand, for the wrath of the Valar was so great that it caused Beleriand to sink under the Sea.
So eh yeah...
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Date: 2007-03-06 04:10 pm (UTC)I guess I was trying to think in terms of all the elves and not just the Noldor, in the context of remix's story, just in case she wasn't writing about the Noldor. I did completely forget about the First Battle of Beleriand, though, so thanks for the reminder.
Methinks I should re-read the Silm, as I'm a bit rusty on it.
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Date: 2007-03-06 04:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 04:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 07:11 pm (UTC)"The Fourth Battle was the Dagor Bragollach, or Battle of Sudden Flame, in which the Siege was broken and Fingolfin was slain."
He doesn't die in the battle, I guess you just made a short cut in the sentence, as I remember he rides to Angband to duel Morgoth after the battle.
But thank you for the chronology and including Lhammoth Battle into it. I didn't know where to fit it ion time line :) *saving your post in my notes*
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:18 pm (UTC)He doesn't die in the battle, I guess you just made a short cut in the sentence, as I remember he rides to Angband to duel Morgoth after the battle.
I see it as a part of the battle.
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:41 pm (UTC)"And it is about Battles on Beleriand, the first with the Valar was not particulary Beleriand, neither was the last since Beleriand was gone ^-^ like, you know, down on the ocean floor ;)"
In the topic we read:
"Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that?"
That is not clear who battles Morgoth, so I haven't stick to Beleriand only. Middle-earth is actually what has left after the War of Wrath, I think, so that can't be taken as a lead, too.
Beleriand was destroyed during the 40 years of the War of Wrath, not before. It's just result of battling powers. How can Nirnaeth compare with it? ;)
I understand Celegorm, Maedhros battled there, too and lost his best friends, not mentioning Fingon knocking my shoulder with a wild eye... Maybe I should stop comparing which battle was greater...
Anyway I addressed my answer to the comment you replied which was talking of the War of Wrath being the second greatest (in which elves were involved as I assume). They were rather distant frightened observers of the burning sky during the second battle when Valar took Melkor to the Circle of Doom (if that was second), but they were already present on Arda and the battle came because of them.
Now I've got a hole in my head how many times Valar were battling Melkor. For sure twice before Elves came to Aman. first Aule and Manwe battled him while sculpting Arda, then when elves woke up. I don't know if destroying of the Lamps was followed by any military action by Valar.
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:51 pm (UTC)That is not clear who battles Morgoth, so I haven't stick to Beleriand only. Middle-earth is actually what has left after the War of Wrath, I think, so that can't be taken as a lead, too.
You might, but Allie didn't and since I was commenting on her ;)
That is not clear who battles Morgoth, so I haven't stick to Beleriand only. Middle-earth is actually what has left after the War of Wrath, I think, so that can't be taken as a lead, too.
Beleriand was destroyed during the 40 years of the War of Wrath, not before. It's just result of battling powers. How can Nirnaeth compare with it? ;)
The Nirnaeth had a huge disastreous impact on the alliance of elves: it basically brought them to their knees, combine this with the fall of Doriath, Gondolin and Sirion *after* that and well, there isn't much left of the elven communities on Beleriand. This does have a huge impact and should be taken into account if you want to write something that takes place around the War of Wrath. Your choices are limited, because the Isle of Balar is the only elven community left, besides the wandering Maglor & Maedhros who had no followers left.
I understand Celegorm, Maedhros battled there, too and lost his best friends, not mentioning Fingon knocking my shoulder with a wild eye... Maybe I should stop comparing which battle was greater...
Every battle had it's harsh and brutal impact.
Anyway I addressed my answer to the comment you replied which was talking of the War of Wrath being the second greatest (in which elves were involved as I assume).
No that was Allie, not me! My answering should be read in a different context than you think it is ;)
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Date: 2007-03-06 08:09 pm (UTC)I was measuring battles in macro scale, not elven. For Elves Nirnaeth was the heaviest ever, at least for Noldor of Hithlum and Feanorians, especially for Maedhros since he led Elves to this battle and even failed to see enemy in his own army.. Total defeat and failure of his warfare abilities. So personal Maedhros' defeat, after which his people lost all they had, Hithlum was gone and more lives went to Mandos and beynd than ever before.
But in macro scale the land was untouched, mountains didn't move, Melkor not captured...
Many beings must have lost their lives during the War of Wrath, including Vanyar, Noldor of Aman and Edain. Eagles and Mayar, no data, so we can't really emasure, but I believe it took more lives than Nirnaeth and all Wars of Beleriand together.
Personally I don't believe remnants of Sindar were just standing and looking or hiding in caves, in my verse they aided Valar.
Well, roaming Laiquendi archers aided a bit in Nirnaeth, escaping on Beleg's command in time to be safe, but that's my own AU vision. Ambarussa must have had many friends in Ossiriand, for sure some young hunters wanted to aid them and fight the enemy, even if their kin decided in the past to avoid battles. Just no one noted it in chronicles ;)
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From:First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 03:20 pm (UTC)Warning for said thoughts being extremely loooooooooooong.
Here's a quick outline of the elves:
The Noldor, Vanyar, and *some* Teleri went to Valinor. These are the Eldar/Calaquendi: they saw the light of the Two trees. They represent a good portion of the elves, but not a majority by any means. I would guess that they're about 1/3 of the entire elven population.
After the Noldor come to Middle-earth, they're besieged like whoa by Morgoth. You could write a story about them being besieged direct from canon: there are half a million battles and places of Noldor vs. Morgoth, 'cause both sides have mondo grudges against the other. I was getting the feeling that you weren't looking for this, though, and more of an overlooked community, and ordinary one that isn't overshadowed by grudges and such, just ordinary elves who are caught in the crossfire caused by the War of Wrath.
So then, aside from the Eldar, we have everyone who stayed in Middle-earth, who never went to Valinor. They're called Moriquendi in the Silm, but that's a Valinorean name and they'd intensely dislike being called "Dark Elves" as they're the ones who fought against Morgoth for years before the Noldor even arrived. Here's where all the possibilities come in because we have a ton of different cultures, and you can pretty much pick any place and have it be reasonable for an elven community (though bear in mind that the action was taking place in Beleriand, because that's where Morgoth's stronghold of Utumno was).
We've got the Sindar in Doriath: they're already well-established as a realm with Elu and Melian at the helm. They've already got a very active role against Morgoth, so not very helpful for your story.
Here's where we can get very, very creative:
The Avari didn't go on the great march towards Valinor. They're way east in Middle-earth, maybe back by Cuivenien, and likely never even came near the Misty Mountains. Not in Beleriand, therefore not close to the action and not helpful for your story.
The Nandor left the march east of the Misty Mountains; not in Beleriand, not helpful.
BUT.
A portion of the Nandor came to Beleriand and became the Green-elves of Ossiriand AKA the Laiquendi.
This is the group of elves that I think would fit the exact parameters of your story.
The Green-elves are only mentioned about seven times total in the Silm, but that leaves plenty of room for creativity. They are very in tune with nature, shy, and eat only plants (no hunting, no meat). Good relations with Doriath: they came to help the Doriathrim in battle against Orcs earlier in the First Age.
Towards the end of the First Age, everyone's getting beat up by Morgoth & Co.: Orcs are running wild all over Beleriand, and everyone's getting attacked. The Green-elves are not excluded from this, so it's very reasonable to have your elven community getting attacked by Orcs. It's not a stretch to think that they had a bunch of scattered settlements in Ossiriand, and yours could be one of them.
Here's a quote from the Silm, "Of the Ruin of Beleriand":
Upon Amon Ereb [the people of Amrod and Amras] maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Tau-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.
There we have it: elves defending Ossiriand against the Orcs, which is exactly what your story is about.
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 03:51 pm (UTC)The Elves are my weakest spot, because it really is like learning a whole new, real history, with dates and classes and families. I've actually started taking NOTES on the Silmarillion stuff (I don't have a book yet but Wiki and other sources have made me fairly learned so far). So thanks a ton for this.
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 05:21 pm (UTC)The Green-elves would not work for the War of Wrath because they were very decimated/scattered by that point, but would work much earlier in the Age, when they were collaborating with the Doriathrim.
See Rhapsody's comments below for a more detailed explanation. Sorry I misled you! :)
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 07:29 pm (UTC)About the division of Elven races and the impact it had on language (http://gentlehobbit.livejournal.com/157004.html?thread=1680204#t1680204) (A rundown in Rhapsy-rambling style, ;))
Explanantion on Languages of the elves:
Comment 1 (http://gentlehobbit.livejournal.com/157004.html?thread=1675596#t1675596)
Comment 2 (http://gentlehobbit.livejournal.com/157004.html?thread=1675852#t1675852)
On Tol Eressëa, languages spoken there and who lived there (http://gentlehobbit.livejournal.com/157004.html?thread=1676364#t1676364)
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 04:35 pm (UTC)This is post Dagor Bragollach and pre-Nirnaeth. Not really suitable for the story because everything changed so drastically after the Nirnaeth.
This is where they fled to after the Nirnaeth:
Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain, for they drew together, and gathering a remnant of the Noldor and the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped far away towards Mount Dolmed in the east.
This is Dwarf territory and not that of the Green Elves.
During the War of Wrath, not many Noldo that followed the Feanorians fought in that battle, if not at all. They would follow the command of Maedhros and Maglor at the very least, who did not want to participate. The Noldor that did fought came from Valinor. Allegiance sworn to the one does not mean that stacks to the other. The main host came from Valinor and Finarfin tried to gather as much as he could from those who survived the kinslaying at Sirion (and not Amrod & Amras followers...) Tolkien does not mention Laiquendi elves fighting during the war of Wrath and joining the host of Finarfin. the only troups that were on Beleriand and that joined the battle were the Falathrim and the Edain, lead by Earendil.
From the Silmarillion:
Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
So the Green elves variation seems rather implausible.
I have been working on my battles of Beleriand essays when I could... so yeah.
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 04:50 pm (UTC)Excellent points about the War of Wrath, and far more detailed than my sketchy outline of stuff.
In terms of a community of elves that isn't described in detail, that is fairly isolated (which leaves room for more invention), and that has fought against Morgoth (at various times in the First Age), the Green-elves are plausible. Not in the War of Wrath, but at other times.
Tolkien does not mention Laiquendi elves fighting during the war of Wrath and joining the host of Finarfin.
Again, thanks for the detail and canon-accuracy in correcting my erroneous statements. Your excellent research proves that I must re-read the Silm. :)
Taking out the War of Wrath factor, if Remix doesn't need to focus on the War for her story and wants to write an elven community besieged by the enemy, the Green-elves would work. Anyway, it's all up to her.
Essays, hm? *interested*
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 04:56 pm (UTC)Well, they were very scattered and the area was big. There was a community at Sirion, but they kinda got slaughtered, so they fled to the isle of Balar where the last remaining high king, Gil-Galad dwelled with Cirdan and it seems plausible Celeborn as well. The question remains however, Oropher, Sindar of nature took the Green-Elves into Middle-Earth and two realms, Silvan were established there: Mirkwood and Lothlorien. The question is when this happened. The answer lies with him :)
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 05:12 pm (UTC)The question remains however, Oropher, Sindar of nature took the Green-Elves into Middle-Earth and two realms, Silvan were established there: Mirkwood and Lothlorien. The question is when this happened. The answer lies with him :)
Let's see, Oropher's in UT: "Oropher had come among [the Silvan elves of Lorien] with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style." He came from Doriath (with Thranduil) after its destruction, and he must've picked up the Green-elves along the way? (I'm just trying to figure this out in my head!)
Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 05:20 pm (UTC)See my other comment, after the First Battle, a small part returned to Ossiriand and took no leader and no longer fought, the large part sought refuge in Doriath, thusly Oropher could have lead the Silvan host, even after the Kinslaying to Sirion, to Balar... or he sneaked out in between and crossed the mountains with them after Doriath fell. What does the UT say more?
Re: First Age elves, Part One
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From:more on the Green elves
Date: 2007-03-06 05:07 pm (UTC)Taking out the War of Wrath factor, if Remix doesn't need to focus on the War for her story and wants to write an elven community besieged by the enemy, the Green-elves would work. Anyway, it's all up to her.
Given her wish regarding that, it would have to happen around the time of the First Battle, look below what happened to the Green Elves:
Therefore he called upon Denethor; and the Elves came in force from Region beyond Aros and from Ossiriand, and fought the first battle in the Wars of Beleriand. And the eastern host of the Orcs was taken between the armies of the Eldar, north of the Andram and midway between Aros and Gelion, and there they were utterly defeated, and those that fled north from the great slaughter were waylaid by the axes of the Naugrim that issued from Mount Dolmed: few indeed returned to Angband.
But the victory of the Elves was dear-bought For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid. Bitterly though his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps, his people lamented him ever after and took no king again. After the battle some returned to Ossiriand, and their tidings filled the remnant of their people with great fear, so that thereafter they came never forth in open war, but kept themselves by wariness and secrecy; and they were called the Laiquendi, the Green-elves, because of their raiment of the colour of leaves. But many went north and entered the guarded realm of Thingol, and were merged with his people.
So no, sorry. The green elves were split up or so it seems: they became part of Doriath and those who did return.. there were a few of them left and they never fought anymore.
Oh this is a lovely detail
In Ossiriand dwelt the Green-elves, in the protection of their rivers; for after Sirion Ulmo loved Gelion above all the waters of the western world. The woodcraft of the Elves of Ossiriand was such that a stranger might pass through their land from end to end and see none of them. They were clad in green in spring and summer, and the sound of their singing could be heard even across the waters of Gelion; wherefore the Noldor named that country Lindon, the land of music, and the mountains beyond they named Ered Lindon, for they first saw them from Ossiriand.
Re: more on the Green elves
Date: 2007-03-06 05:18 pm (UTC)The First Battle is a possibility, though. Oh, I'm so interested in the Green-elves now!
I adore that quote: it is so lovely. :)
Re: more on the Green elves
Date: 2007-03-06 05:21 pm (UTC)*waves at Remix*
We're here to help, honestly!
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From:Re: First Age elves, Part One
Date: 2007-03-06 04:51 pm (UTC)Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in Middle-earth. Among those were Círdan the Shipwright, and Celeborn of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife, who alone remained of those who led the Noldor to exile in Beleriand. In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men.
Beginning Second age (from the Silm, Of the Rings of Power and the third age)
In the Great Battle and the tumults of the fall of Thangorodrim there were mighty convulsions in the earth, and Beleriand was broken and laid waste; and northward and westward many lands sank beneath the waters of the Great Sea. In the east, in Ossiriand, the walls of Ered Luin were broken, and a great gap was made in them towards the south, and a gulf of the sea flowed in. Into that gulf the River Lhûn fell by a new course, and it was called therefore the Gulf of Lhûn. That country had of old been named Lindon by the Noldor, and this name it bore thereafter; and many of the Eldar still dwelt there, lingering, unwilling yet to forsake Beleriand where they had fought and laboured long. Gil-galad son of Fingon was their king, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, son of Eärendil the Mariner and brother of Elros first king of Númenor.
Upon the shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens, and named them Mithlond; and there they held many ships, for the harbourage was good. From the Grey Havens the Eldar ever and anon set sail, fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth; for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight Road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressëa and Valinor beyond the encircling seas.
Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts. Only in Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin.
The Green-Elves followed Oropher (who did not fight during the War of Wrath, I think more about him is in the Unfinished Tales, the source for everything Silvan or Green Elves).
First Age elves, Part Two
Date: 2007-03-06 03:22 pm (UTC)And after all my very long-winded explanation, let me add this: for me, personally, there's a lot more leeway in the Silm because it can be seen as an essentially Noldorin history book. "History is written by the victors" and all, and the Noldor were great lorekeepers; even though so many of them were decimated/returned West, the ones that remained wrote the Quenta Silmarillion. There's no real focus on the Sindar, on the elves that remained in MIddle-earth: the Silm is a history of the rebellion of the Noldor and the tragic effects that had on Beleriand. They could be completely ignoring the existence of your elven community because they didn't think it was important enough to include in their grand history of tragedy and drama.
So to sum up... Does that help? ;)