silwritersguild | Writing the Elves

I'm still pretty new to Tolkien, even though I've learned a lot about the mythos, but I am having trouble with a project I want to write--specifically, having trouble with some of the Elven details.

My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.

Any help would be appreciated.

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From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

Frankly I don't understand what is about the quotation you gave me - it's cut.

Yes, from Morgoth's Ring, it's at the end of the bit ;) It answers the question weither Huan could be in Mandos or not.

Questions were asked, but what was the abnswer? It doens't state that Eagles weren't Maiar, it onluy tates readers were asking of that.

Show me then that they were Maiar. Makes a discussion a lot easier. Huan wasn't: he was a living breathing being that had the gift to talk, wisdom and could reason. All qualities that gives a being a soul.

Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe.

Could be doesn't make them Maiar.

I quoted of the orcs, either, for I was thinking of that, too. And why not granting Orcs Mandos if some of them were Eldar before>? Though as I was told Tolkien gave up that vision and in the end all orcs had different origin, maybe the one I quoted now.

There were several variations and places of waiting for every species in Mandos: from Hobbits to elves. The fact that there isn't much known about the origin of hobbits, yet they have a hall of waiting.

No soul or immortal?

He died, so mortal. He went to Mandos, so a soul. It can be very simple.

Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like ther lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)

I would love to see the line after (Huan} please. That bit can also refer to what follows next.

The Lay of Leithian

Well yes, let's have Maglor being Luthien's lover and spouse. That would be so nice.

I'm following 412 as I bookmark every discussion on that because I wanted Huan so badly be more than just a dog. Thorondor is the same immortal spirit coming out of Arda as Huan, Maiar, lesser than Eonwe but still higher than elves. It makes the friendship of Huan and Celegorm more special and Huan's decisions more clear. He wasn't a doggie, a pet, but companion.

If you have read Requiem than you know how I see Huan. Not as a doggie and a pet, but as a companion, a very faithful one, but so conflicted. A creature that had an unusual lifespan, but knew he would die. He also knew he was permitted to speak three times, so that gave him a conscience, every action that he does, his decisions and such.. Huan was not an ordinary hound, but he was not a maiar. Maiar can do shapeshifting (think of Sauron), Huan could not. Look at the Silmarillion and you see that Tolkien so often states that he was a hound, but so brave that he kicked Maiar minion's ass. Yes I am very fond of Huan LOL. I just wish he told me what I have to do with his final chapter. But there are no lesser maiar or different ranks amongst them. You might think in your verse that it is the case, but it isn't.

According LACE, I don't treat it as canon anymore, that's just Anglo-Saxon mariners tale ;)

I treat everything as canon (yes Lace as well), but I do look at the whole of it, by gathering every bit of research, analysing it and organising it: looking at the chronology, if something was abandoned, I take it into perspective, but always follow the concept that comes after it. I always study the notes and see it as a whole, not deciding between page one and two. My profession comes in handy from time to time. Huan went to Mandos, Mandos is a place for spirits, therefore he had a Fëa. It was told he would *die* after he spoke three times, so yeah, that kinda doesn't come along with being truly immortal of the Maiar kind doesn't it? Besides that, why would a Maiar follow an elf? That doesn't make sense hierarchy wise.

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

"I would love to see the line after (Huan} please. That bit can also refer to what follows next."

There is no line after that, next is footnote 5 about Gwaihirand Landroval, exact quotation from RotK. This line about Huan was a footnote to the line I wrote in bold text - that they could be Manwe's emissaries. Footnote 4. So this should look this way:

Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe.⁴ But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.[MR, p.410]

⁴See p. 138.
- At the bottom of the page bearing the brief text V (p. 389) my father jotted down the following, entirely unconnected with the matter of the text:
Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like ther lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)

[MR, p.412]

I should check p. 138 then, either... End notes to The Annals of Aman:

My father scribbled a few hasty notes on the typescript, but those that arose from his later rejection of the essentials of the cosmogonic myth are not given here. The following may however be recorded:
$169 The words 'utterly forsake' were underlined, with a marginal note: 'They forbade return and made it impossible for Elves or Men to reach Aman - since that experiment had proved disastrous. But they would not give the Noldor aid in fighting Melkor. Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the Noldor in extreme cases. Ulmo went to Beleriand and took a secret but active part in Elvish resistance.' On the Eagles as Maiar see pp. 409 - 11.
[MR p. 137-138]

And pages 409-411 are quoted above (though maybe not all). Now we've got a bigger picture , including the quotation about Huan having no soul in between on page 411 O_o. In fact to catch what's going on one would have to read it whole carefully - from the beginning to an end, for maybe note on page 411 is some older note than the note on 412.

I've found it in a discussion about Maiar at Elendili board, where after discussing various quotations and ideas people finally agreed that Huan and Eagles were Maiar. Also that it must have been late legendary idea, while in the earlier versions Gwaehir is Thorondor's descendant, so can't be Maia according to late thesis on Maiar being sterile. Late Maiar do not breed, apart Melian, but that's also early story. And in her case she wasn't mother in her main Maia body, but took elven form to marry Elwe, with it she must have lost some of her powers, but gained the ability to have a child. And her powers were weaker after giving a birth to a child (though still great enough to save Doriath from harm). So in the end he would have to give up the idea Gwaihir being Thorondor's descendant or that Maiar do not breed, he did none, unfortunately, his time on Arda ended :(

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

"A creature that had an unusual lifespan, but knew he would die. He also knew he was permitted to speak three times, so that gave him a conscience, every action that he does, his decisions and such.."

I'm sorry, I haven't red it yet. Huan speaking 3 times comes form 'The Tale of Tinuviel' with Beren the Gnome, whoi IMHO was then parted into Celegorm the Noldor and Beren the Human. Pity, pity, how much more interesting would be Celegorm claiming he'll take out the jewel from Morgoth's crown if that's Elu'd price. And how betraying to the oath... Or maybe he would never break his oath for love? Perhapos Tolkien saw the btale of elleth and man more romanic, perhaps didn't knwo how to solve Celegorm's dilema, so gave the girl to Beren :(

It is repeated in the Silmarillion including the prophecy that Huan he will die battling the wolf of Angband, but we don't know if that's exactly the way Tolkien would finally leave it.
Haven't seen nor followed any discussion on that - if there were another ideas on that plot in HoME - but I treat it rather symbolically that Huan was allowed to speak "aloud" 3 times only (why!?). IMHO he could talk with Celegorm in their own or dog's speech whenever they wanted. Celegorm knew not only birds language, I think, so he could talk with his companion without breaking that "3 words destiny" sentence. My compromise between Huan the Maia and Huan from BolT and to avoid "but he never spoke to Celegorm! :((( "

I also wonder what Huan did during the kinslaying in Alqualonde - observed, went for a walk, fought on one side (which), tried to catch Celegorm's ass away from the slaughter or barked at Teleri to scare them and save their lives?

"Huan was not an ordinary hound, but he was not a maiar. Maiar can do shapeshifting (think of Sauron), Huan could not."

Only Sauron could, probably. This is not closed question, maybe also early idea, which might have change with time.. Lesser spirits once they have chosen their body, their powers were weaker. All were Ainur before or other spirits, who entered Ea. Sauron could change his shape, but lost this power with time, either, as Morgoth lost his after giving too much power to Ungoliant.
Well, Melian changed her body, but this was destiny sung in the Music of Ainur, and she was powerful spirit, too. Olórin did the same becoming Mithrandir, but on Manwe's order, not by his own will. It doesn't say he never could do it on his will, though.
I can't answer that, but I guess that only most powerful spirits could change their shape and had to have a good reason for that. Sauron was probably the most powerful of all Maiar, so he had more "kits" and "inane abilities" in his character's sheet ;)

"Besides that, why would a Maiar follow an elf?"

Because it was in the Music of Ainur ;P And because one professor wrote it long time ago and liked that idea so much that never changed it. One of this "because it's fantasy" things. IMHO he had to save Beren, aid Luthien and kill the wolf, that is the reason why Manwe or Orome in this case sent him along with Celegorm. Maybe Orome foreseen that Celegorm will need help or will be dangerous himself so he gave him a guardian angel to solve things best in the future?

From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

I'm sorry, I haven't red it yet. Huan speaking 3 times comes form 'The Tale of Tinuviel' with Beren the Gnome, whoi IMHO was then parted into Celegorm the Noldor and Beren the Human.

No it's in the Silmarillion. Really.

and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

and

Lúthien spoke often to Huan in her loneliness, telling of Beren, who was the friend of all birds and beasts that did not serve Morgoth; ad Huan understood all that was said. For he comprehended the speech of all things with voice; but it was permitted to him thrice only ere his death to speak with words.

Well, that says enough.

I also wonder what Huan did during the kinslaying in Alqualonde - observed, went for a walk, fought on one side (which), tried to catch Celegorm's ass away from the slaughter or barked at Teleri to scare them and save their lives?

He fell under the doom of the Noldor, so yes that is also about fighting & killing at Alqualondë.

Only Sauron could, probably. This is not closed question, maybe also early idea, which might have change with time.. Lesser spirits once they have chosen their body, their powers were weaker.

Nopes, more could. Olorin, Thuringwhetil for sure... Radagast, there was something about him as well.

Maybe Orome foreseen that Celegorm will need help or will be dangerous himself so he gave him a guardian angel to solve things best in the future?

No. He gifted Huan long before it was clear what would happen to the Noldor. Orome could not look into the future (every valar had their own expertise, just as Manwe could not see the evil of Melkor where Tulkas could) and equip Celegorm with a hound.

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

Who said Orome cpuld never look into the future? Some elves cpould, why not a Vala? Maybe he felt this boy will need a special friend ;) He must have had a reason for that.

"Nopes, more could. Olorin, Thuringwhetil for sure... Radagast, there was something about him as well."

Were is it about Thuringwhetil? I'm curious about her, but Silm doesn't say much and there is nothing on her in the Tale of Tinuviel, or I just don't remember (but Tevildo the kitty is there, pity they got rid of him ^_^)
I wrote about Olorin - Manwe's order, it wasn't his choice; anyway he was a powerful Maia, as Melian and Sauron and all other Maiar becoming wizards were the same strong. Saruman being the most powerful of them (but in the end when Mithrandir was sent back to ME became the most powerful one I think).

"No it's in the Silmarillion. Really."

I know, but it cames from the early ideas like the Tale of Tinuviel, I mean the fairy tale factor. It's often in fairy tales that someone can do something only 3 times. And the oldest visions were very fairy, including fairy tinny gnomes-elves, while they have got nothing in common with Quendi.

From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

No Valar were assigned to their bits in the music: Vaire wove the tapestries and could perhaps look into the future.

From The Silmarillion:

And many other things Ilúvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

These are his gifts:

Oromë loved the lands of Middle-earth, and he left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains. He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts, and he delights in horses and in hounds; and all trees he loves, for which reason he is called Aldaron, and by the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of Forests. Nahar is the name of his horse, white in the sun, and shining silver at night. The Valaróma is the name of his great horn, the sound of which is like the upgoing of the Sun in scarlet, or the sheer lightning cleaving the clouds. Above all the horns of his host it was heard in the woods that Yavanna brought forth in Valinor; for there Oromë would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of. Melkor.

All from the Silm

He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of? Thuringwëthil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her greatfingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with and iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Lúthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.

Then Beren perceived that Lúthien could not be divided from the doom that lay upon them both, and he sought no longer to dissuade her. By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of ThurIngwëthil.

Thuringwëthil 'Woman of Secret Shadow', the messenger of Sauron from Tol-in-Gaurhoth who took the form of a great bat, and in whose shape Lúthien entered Angband. 216

It's all in there.

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

"He fell under the doom of the Noldor, so yes that is also about fighting & killing at Alqualondë."

Not all Noldor were kinslayers, yet they were doomed and they brought this doom to others as well. So it doesn't prove Huan was fighting with Teleri.

From:

heartofoshun.livejournal.com

"Maybe Orome foreseen that Celegorm will need help or will be dangerous himself so he gave him a guardian angel to solve things best in the future?"

This is what I have to believe! It's such a lovely concept.

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

LACE is not relation from elves, but written by someone from the outside and if any elves do obey it, there are elves of post Rings War times, wise beings not the emotional, immature elves of the I Age. I don't think Celegorm have ever heard of such thing ;) If he did he would never kidnapped Luthien. Unless he was crazy, of course, that's another possibility. For according to LACE he would see she belongs to Beren, she was already in love or even his wife by that time (they already spent many nights together, one might give it many interpretations, more than only watching stars).

I went to your country, talked with a few people and later wrote an essay about your customs it would include some truth, but also possibly some misunderstandings. Your essay on that matter would be much more trustworthy, but still you might omit some things to present your country in the best light. The same or worse is with Aelfwine. He not only described what was shown to him. He visited a magical island inhabited by beings of a different kind (years after the Ring War events). A lot of place for misinterpretations and fairy tale like visions,since a late human couldn't understand all (and how did he knew their speech or they his?). As trustworthy as the seas ending with an abyss full of monsters (though it might have been truth before the Numenore sunk and Arda became rounded ;) ). And then he told this all to a mysterious person who told it all to Tolkien, who only wrote all down. That's the final vision of the legendary Tolkien wanted to create.

About taking what is canon and what not, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately I haven't red all, so have to rely on those who did and on quotations they give. At least I know where to dig for more. And of course there is canon and my vision, which can be different. It's hard to separate both sometimes, when there is not enough of evidence.

From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

LACE is not relation from elves, but written by someone from the outside and if any elves do obey it, there are elves of post Rings War times, wise beings not the emotional, immature elves of the I Age. I don't think Celegorm have ever heard of such thing ;) If he did he would never kidnapped Luthien.

Oh he did and because of it, he waited for *the* political marriage.

For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien , and force Thingol to give her the mightiest of princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.

*pets Celegorm* Ambitious you.

I know about who wrote LACE, I also knows it says: being observed...

But in LACE is also the bits about Fea, Hroa, Mandos ect ect ect If people accept that as canon, than they should also accept the not so covienent bits. You either embrace it fully, or discard it.

I know LACE by heart and I can write enough stories dealing based on LACE and still being accused of not sticking to it. Ask Dawn, she experienced the same. So yeah, having read it all...

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

Still she would never love him and was already wife of another. (Elwe was blind and oblivious to LACE, either O_o) Or maybe Celegorm never loved her being one of these elves driven by sexual desire? Well, any way he was a criminal in that moment, on his downfall. Or only power?
Good that my Celegorm is in woods and can't talk now ;)

No, I don't take LACE fully as truth nor as a lie, I treat it as text which needs interpretation, because some facts have bis misunderstood. Everyone sees these texts in their own subjective way and that's why accusations of not following canon. Every one has got a different vision of canon, not only concerning LACE, which doesn't make life easier.
And of course besides discussing how much Aelfwine was mistaken I'm happy that this text was written and published. Despite what I said I take as true a lot of it.

From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

Or maybe Celegorm never loved her being one of these elves driven by sexual desire?

well how about this:
So great was her sudden beauty revealed beneath the sun that Celegorm became enamoured of her;

enamoured
adj. in love, delighted, charmed (also enamored)
enamour
v. inspire with love or delight

Completely smitten. Awwww.

From:

sirielle.livejournal.com

And I always thought it means he was in love, but you don't capture into a cage those who you love. Especially being Quendu - in my idealistic vision of them at least. If he loved her and followed LACE, he would never do it. So he didn't love her or didn't follow LACE.
Or it was sex, nothing more (and politics, but that's additional use of that situation).

But I like also

ithiliel_silver interpretation of that moment:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2464193/3/

Now it's too late, thank you for the nice conversation, if I've got anything more to add will do it later :)

From:

rhapsody11.livejournal.com

And I always thought it means he was in love, but you don't capture into a cage those who you love.

That depends. It happens daily.

Especially being Quendu - in my idealistic vision of them at least. If he loved her and followed LACE, he would never do it. So he didn't love her or didn't follow LACE.

Celegorm was Celegorm: the oath always came first, the rest comes later.

Or it was sex, nothing more (and politics, but that's additional use of that situation).

No it wasn't.

Now it's too late, thank you for the nice conversation, if I've got anything more to add will do it later :)

I suggest to stop debating it here, because this truly - and everything you brought up - had nothing to do with Remix's question. I don't want to flood her inbox with things that had nothing to do with her question about Elven Communities and the War of Wrath. It is not that I do not wish to debate Celegorm, but I don't want to continue hijacking this thread.