Writing the Elves
Mar. 6th, 2007 08:22 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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silwritersguildI'm still pretty new to Tolkien, even though I've learned a lot about the mythos, but I am having trouble with a project I want to write--specifically, having trouble with some of the Elven details.
My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.
Any help would be appreciated.
My story will take place on a timeline of about 20 years, and two of the main characters will be Elves. Can I create a special village or place for their Elven community, or did the Elves only dwell in listed ME places like Mirkwood and such, especially since they were fewer in number in Middle-Earth and many went to Valinor? Since the story will be set against the backdrop of the second big war against Morgoth, is there a specific way I must potray this community's involvement in that? My idea is for the community to be beseiged by the enemy's forces at present.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:51 pm (UTC)That is not clear who battles Morgoth, so I haven't stick to Beleriand only. Middle-earth is actually what has left after the War of Wrath, I think, so that can't be taken as a lead, too.
You might, but Allie didn't and since I was commenting on her ;)
That is not clear who battles Morgoth, so I haven't stick to Beleriand only. Middle-earth is actually what has left after the War of Wrath, I think, so that can't be taken as a lead, too.
Beleriand was destroyed during the 40 years of the War of Wrath, not before. It's just result of battling powers. How can Nirnaeth compare with it? ;)
The Nirnaeth had a huge disastreous impact on the alliance of elves: it basically brought them to their knees, combine this with the fall of Doriath, Gondolin and Sirion *after* that and well, there isn't much left of the elven communities on Beleriand. This does have a huge impact and should be taken into account if you want to write something that takes place around the War of Wrath. Your choices are limited, because the Isle of Balar is the only elven community left, besides the wandering Maglor & Maedhros who had no followers left.
I understand Celegorm, Maedhros battled there, too and lost his best friends, not mentioning Fingon knocking my shoulder with a wild eye... Maybe I should stop comparing which battle was greater...
Every battle had it's harsh and brutal impact.
Anyway I addressed my answer to the comment you replied which was talking of the War of Wrath being the second greatest (in which elves were involved as I assume).
No that was Allie, not me! My answering should be read in a different context than you think it is ;)
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Date: 2007-03-06 08:09 pm (UTC)I was measuring battles in macro scale, not elven. For Elves Nirnaeth was the heaviest ever, at least for Noldor of Hithlum and Feanorians, especially for Maedhros since he led Elves to this battle and even failed to see enemy in his own army.. Total defeat and failure of his warfare abilities. So personal Maedhros' defeat, after which his people lost all they had, Hithlum was gone and more lives went to Mandos and beynd than ever before.
But in macro scale the land was untouched, mountains didn't move, Melkor not captured...
Many beings must have lost their lives during the War of Wrath, including Vanyar, Noldor of Aman and Edain. Eagles and Mayar, no data, so we can't really emasure, but I believe it took more lives than Nirnaeth and all Wars of Beleriand together.
Personally I don't believe remnants of Sindar were just standing and looking or hiding in caves, in my verse they aided Valar.
Well, roaming Laiquendi archers aided a bit in Nirnaeth, escaping on Beleg's command in time to be safe, but that's my own AU vision. Ambarussa must have had many friends in Ossiriand, for sure some young hunters wanted to aid them and fight the enemy, even if their kin decided in the past to avoid battles. Just no one noted it in chronicles ;)
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Date: 2007-03-06 08:23 pm (UTC)I politely disagree with you. The fact that the lands were not changed, does not mean that the morale was shattered if not hope of living creatures supporting the utter good were destroyed: Edain got enslaved, Turin was a result of that for example. Things were set in motion that had such a huge impact... and this was not on micro level. The Nirnaeth formed Turin in a way, fuelled him, so that he could wrestle valiantly during the final battle. The enemy overran the lands, treason and the root of mistrust between elf and man was kindled.. not such small things, but these things all had a major influence. It all depends on what you choose to decide what is marco or not. Politically and in diplomacy, this was a huge change on macro level. I see every battle on Beleriand as macro, because it was all part of the main theme of the Silm: Sin.
Many beings must have lost their lives during the War of Wrath, including Vanyar, Noldor of Aman and Edain. Eagles and Mayar, no data, so we can't really emasure, but I believe it took more lives than Nirnaeth and all Wars of Beleriand together.
I think I have numbers on that, I need to check some resources. Which Maiar were killed btw?
Personally I don't believe remnants of Sindar were just standing and looking or hiding in caves, in my verse they aided Valar.
Sure, but not in canon :) Whatever verses we have, I am fine by all of them, but it's up to Remix what Remix!verse will be born. I simply supply the facts.
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Date: 2007-03-06 08:45 pm (UTC)I don't know which Maiar were killed, apart these on Morgoth's side, but we don't know names of them all, too. Eagles were Maiar, as well. I don't believe the battle took place and only enemy's forces bleed or only lesser beings as orcs, elves and men.
My macro means Arda seen from a long distance as a whole continent/planet in which Turin is only a blink of light for a while. I agree with what you said but it would still be local to Beleriand only in my view.
But I also agree that the battle influenced more than Noldor. Nirnaeth didn't have that huge impact on lot of other beings of Arda as Valar wars did, though. Of course till Nirnaeth Morgoth was busy too much to terrorise the East more, but he was not sleeping there, other way Easterlings wouldn't be in his command. After Nirnaeth he was almost free to set his forces to every part or Arda except Aman (and probably thinking to conquer Aman one day), so that had also macro impact. But he was almost free there anyway before Nirnaeth. Who fought him there? Dwarves and Avari (and there were dwarves on his side in HoME or in the Hobbit as I recall from another discussion). After capturing Melkor both West and East had a chance to breathe freely, even Easterlings, so IMHO the impact was greater. Unfortunately Sauron escaped and made his own empire of terror (and hearts of Easterlings were poisoned with fear too much to be free).
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 08:51 pm (UTC)No they weren't, sorry to burst that bubble.
To cite from my author notes of Requiem:
As for Huan's fate, place in Mandos and reincarnation, I want to refer to this citation:
( i) This debate of the Valar (rebirth of Miriel in her own body a/n) not wholly feigned. For the Eldar were permitted to attend all conclaves, and many did so (especially those that so deeply concerned them, their fate, and their place in Arda, as did this matter). [...] [?Thus] questions were also asked concerning the fate and death of Men. All [?read Also] concerning other 'speaking', and therefore 'reasonable', kinds: Ents, Dwarves, Trolls, Orcs - and the speaking of beasts such as Huan, or the Great Eagles.
From: The History of Middle Earth, Morgoth's ring: The laws and customs of the Eldar. Specifically of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos (manuscript A).
After Nirnaeth he was almost free to set his forces to every part or Arda except Aman (and probably thinking to conquer Aman one day), so that had also macro impact.
See, I knew we would agree ;)
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Date: 2007-03-06 09:55 pm (UTC)Frankly I don't understand what is about the quotation you gave me - it's cut.
Questions were asked, but what was the abnswer? It doens't state that Eagles weren't Maiar, it onluy tates readers were asking of that.
Other quotations:
I quoted of the orcs, either, for I was thinking of that, too. And why not granting Orcs Mandos if some of them were Eldar before>? Though as I was told Tolkien gave up that vision and in the end all orcs had different origin, maybe the one I quoted now.
Underlined sentence sounds funny ;)
More:
Older ones:
"The Lay of Leithian" about Orome's hounds:
and Huan himself:
No soul or immortal?
Which version will you follow? Page 411 or 412? ;)
I'm following 412 as I bookmark every discussion on that because I wanted Huan so badly be more than just a dog. Thorondor is the same immortal spirit coming out of Arda as Huan, Maiar, lesser than Eonwe but still higher than elves. It makes the friendship of Huan and Celegorm more special and Huan's decisions more clear. He wasn't a doggie, a pet, but companion.
I have MR for a year or so, but haven't red it yet, I see "Myths Transformed" is a must.
According LACE, I don't treat it as canon anymore, that's just Anglo-Saxon mariners tale ;) Though as I see it's from footnotes, too, as my quotations.
/Sorry for the double, but I messed the formatting and had to fix spelling, hope now foratting will work./
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Date: 2007-03-06 10:24 pm (UTC)Yes, from Morgoth's Ring, it's at the end of the bit ;) It answers the question weither Huan could be in Mandos or not.
Questions were asked, but what was the abnswer? It doens't state that Eagles weren't Maiar, it onluy tates readers were asking of that.
Show me then that they were Maiar. Makes a discussion a lot easier. Huan wasn't: he was a living breathing being that had the gift to talk, wisdom and could reason. All qualities that gives a being a soul.
Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe.
Could be doesn't make them Maiar.
I quoted of the orcs, either, for I was thinking of that, too. And why not granting Orcs Mandos if some of them were Eldar before>? Though as I was told Tolkien gave up that vision and in the end all orcs had different origin, maybe the one I quoted now.
There were several variations and places of waiting for every species in Mandos: from Hobbits to elves. The fact that there isn't much known about the origin of hobbits, yet they have a hall of waiting.
No soul or immortal?
He died, so mortal. He went to Mandos, so a soul. It can be very simple.
Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like ther lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)
I would love to see the line after (Huan} please. That bit can also refer to what follows next.
The Lay of Leithian
Well yes, let's have Maglor being Luthien's lover and spouse. That would be so nice.
I'm following 412 as I bookmark every discussion on that because I wanted Huan so badly be more than just a dog. Thorondor is the same immortal spirit coming out of Arda as Huan, Maiar, lesser than Eonwe but still higher than elves. It makes the friendship of Huan and Celegorm more special and Huan's decisions more clear. He wasn't a doggie, a pet, but companion.
If you have read Requiem than you know how I see Huan. Not as a doggie and a pet, but as a companion, a very faithful one, but so conflicted. A creature that had an unusual lifespan, but knew he would die. He also knew he was permitted to speak three times, so that gave him a conscience, every action that he does, his decisions and such.. Huan was not an ordinary hound, but he was not a maiar. Maiar can do shapeshifting (think of Sauron), Huan could not. Look at the Silmarillion and you see that Tolkien so often states that he was a hound, but so brave that he kicked Maiar minion's ass. Yes I am very fond of Huan LOL. I just wish he told me what I have to do with his final chapter. But there are no lesser maiar or different ranks amongst them. You might think in your verse that it is the case, but it isn't.
According LACE, I don't treat it as canon anymore, that's just Anglo-Saxon mariners tale ;)
I treat everything as canon (yes Lace as well), but I do look at the whole of it, by gathering every bit of research, analysing it and organising it: looking at the chronology, if something was abandoned, I take it into perspective, but always follow the concept that comes after it. I always study the notes and see it as a whole, not deciding between page one and two. My profession comes in handy from time to time. Huan went to Mandos, Mandos is a place for spirits, therefore he had a Fëa. It was told he would *die* after he spoke three times, so yeah, that kinda doesn't come along with being truly immortal of the Maiar kind doesn't it? Besides that, why would a Maiar follow an elf? That doesn't make sense hierarchy wise.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 11:48 pm (UTC)There is no line after that, next is footnote 5 about Gwaihirand Landroval, exact quotation from RotK. This line about Huan was a footnote to the line I wrote in bold text - that they could be Manwe's emissaries. Footnote 4. So this should look this way:
I should check p. 138 then, either... End notes to The Annals of Aman:
And pages 409-411 are quoted above (though maybe not all). Now we've got a bigger picture , including the quotation about Huan having no soul in between on page 411 O_o. In fact to catch what's going on one would have to read it whole carefully - from the beginning to an end, for maybe note on page 411 is some older note than the note on 412.
I've found it in a discussion about Maiar at Elendili board, where after discussing various quotations and ideas people finally agreed that Huan and Eagles were Maiar. Also that it must have been late legendary idea, while in the earlier versions Gwaehir is Thorondor's descendant, so can't be Maia according to late thesis on Maiar being sterile. Late Maiar do not breed, apart Melian, but that's also early story. And in her case she wasn't mother in her main Maia body, but took elven form to marry Elwe, with it she must have lost some of her powers, but gained the ability to have a child. And her powers were weaker after giving a birth to a child (though still great enough to save Doriath from harm). So in the end he would have to give up the idea Gwaihir being Thorondor's descendant or that Maiar do not breed, he did none, unfortunately, his time on Arda ended :(
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 11:48 pm (UTC)I'm sorry, I haven't red it yet. Huan speaking 3 times comes form 'The Tale of Tinuviel' with Beren the Gnome, whoi IMHO was then parted into Celegorm the Noldor and Beren the Human. Pity, pity, how much more interesting would be Celegorm claiming he'll take out the jewel from Morgoth's crown if that's Elu'd price. And how betraying to the oath... Or maybe he would never break his oath for love? Perhapos Tolkien saw the btale of elleth and man more romanic, perhaps didn't knwo how to solve Celegorm's dilema, so gave the girl to Beren :(
It is repeated in the Silmarillion including the prophecy that Huan he will die battling the wolf of Angband, but we don't know if that's exactly the way Tolkien would finally leave it.
Haven't seen nor followed any discussion on that - if there were another ideas on that plot in HoME - but I treat it rather symbolically that Huan was allowed to speak "aloud" 3 times only (why!?). IMHO he could talk with Celegorm in their own or dog's speech whenever they wanted. Celegorm knew not only birds language, I think, so he could talk with his companion without breaking that "3 words destiny" sentence. My compromise between Huan the Maia and Huan from BolT and to avoid "but he never spoke to Celegorm! :((( "
I also wonder what Huan did during the kinslaying in Alqualonde - observed, went for a walk, fought on one side (which), tried to catch Celegorm's ass away from the slaughter or barked at Teleri to scare them and save their lives?
"Huan was not an ordinary hound, but he was not a maiar. Maiar can do shapeshifting (think of Sauron), Huan could not."
Only Sauron could, probably. This is not closed question, maybe also early idea, which might have change with time.. Lesser spirits once they have chosen their body, their powers were weaker. All were Ainur before or other spirits, who entered Ea. Sauron could change his shape, but lost this power with time, either, as Morgoth lost his after giving too much power to Ungoliant.
Well, Melian changed her body, but this was destiny sung in the Music of Ainur, and she was powerful spirit, too. Olórin did the same becoming Mithrandir, but on Manwe's order, not by his own will. It doesn't say he never could do it on his will, though.
I can't answer that, but I guess that only most powerful spirits could change their shape and had to have a good reason for that. Sauron was probably the most powerful of all Maiar, so he had more "kits" and "inane abilities" in his character's sheet ;)
"Besides that, why would a Maiar follow an elf?"
Because it was in the Music of Ainur ;P And because one professor wrote it long time ago and liked that idea so much that never changed it. One of this "because it's fantasy" things. IMHO he had to save Beren, aid Luthien and kill the wolf, that is the reason why Manwe or Orome in this case sent him along with Celegorm. Maybe Orome foreseen that Celegorm will need help or will be dangerous himself so he gave him a guardian angel to solve things best in the future?
no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 12:03 am (UTC)No it's in the Silmarillion. Really.
and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.
and
Lúthien spoke often to Huan in her loneliness, telling of Beren, who was the friend of all birds and beasts that did not serve Morgoth; ad Huan understood all that was said. For he comprehended the speech of all things with voice; but it was permitted to him thrice only ere his death to speak with words.
Well, that says enough.
I also wonder what Huan did during the kinslaying in Alqualonde - observed, went for a walk, fought on one side (which), tried to catch Celegorm's ass away from the slaughter or barked at Teleri to scare them and save their lives?
He fell under the doom of the Noldor, so yes that is also about fighting & killing at Alqualondë.
Only Sauron could, probably. This is not closed question, maybe also early idea, which might have change with time.. Lesser spirits once they have chosen their body, their powers were weaker.
Nopes, more could. Olorin, Thuringwhetil for sure... Radagast, there was something about him as well.
Maybe Orome foreseen that Celegorm will need help or will be dangerous himself so he gave him a guardian angel to solve things best in the future?
No. He gifted Huan long before it was clear what would happen to the Noldor. Orome could not look into the future (every valar had their own expertise, just as Manwe could not see the evil of Melkor where Tulkas could) and equip Celegorm with a hound.
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Date: 2007-03-07 12:23 am (UTC)"Nopes, more could. Olorin, Thuringwhetil for sure... Radagast, there was something about him as well."
Were is it about Thuringwhetil? I'm curious about her, but Silm doesn't say much and there is nothing on her in the Tale of Tinuviel, or I just don't remember (but Tevildo the kitty is there, pity they got rid of him ^_^)
I wrote about Olorin - Manwe's order, it wasn't his choice; anyway he was a powerful Maia, as Melian and Sauron and all other Maiar becoming wizards were the same strong. Saruman being the most powerful of them (but in the end when Mithrandir was sent back to ME became the most powerful one I think).
"No it's in the Silmarillion. Really."
I know, but it cames from the early ideas like the Tale of Tinuviel, I mean the fairy tale factor. It's often in fairy tales that someone can do something only 3 times. And the oldest visions were very fairy, including fairy tinny gnomes-elves, while they have got nothing in common with Quendi.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 12:34 am (UTC)From The Silmarillion:
And many other things Ilúvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
These are his gifts:
Oromë loved the lands of Middle-earth, and he left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains. He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts, and he delights in horses and in hounds; and all trees he loves, for which reason he is called Aldaron, and by the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of Forests. Nahar is the name of his horse, white in the sun, and shining silver at night. The Valaróma is the name of his great horn, the sound of which is like the upgoing of the Sun in scarlet, or the sheer lightning cleaving the clouds. Above all the horns of his host it was heard in the woods that Yavanna brought forth in Valinor; for there Oromë would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of. Melkor.
All from the Silm
He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of? Thuringwëthil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her greatfingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with and iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Lúthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.
Then Beren perceived that Lúthien could not be divided from the doom that lay upon them both, and he sought no longer to dissuade her. By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of ThurIngwëthil.
Thuringwëthil 'Woman of Secret Shadow', the messenger of Sauron from Tol-in-Gaurhoth who took the form of a great bat, and in whose shape Lúthien entered Angband. 216
It's all in there.
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Date: 2007-03-07 12:42 am (UTC)Not all Noldor were kinslayers, yet they were doomed and they brought this doom to others as well. So it doesn't prove Huan was fighting with Teleri.
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Date: 2007-03-07 01:14 am (UTC)This is what I have to believe! It's such a lovely concept.
#3 part, damned word count!
Date: 2007-03-06 11:49 pm (UTC)I went to your country, talked with a few people and later wrote an essay about your customs it would include some truth, but also possibly some misunderstandings. Your essay on that matter would be much more trustworthy, but still you might omit some things to present your country in the best light. The same or worse is with Aelfwine. He not only described what was shown to him. He visited a magical island inhabited by beings of a different kind (years after the Ring War events). A lot of place for misinterpretations and fairy tale like visions,since a late human couldn't understand all (and how did he knew their speech or they his?). As trustworthy as the seas ending with an abyss full of monsters (though it might have been truth before the Numenore sunk and Arda became rounded ;) ). And then he told this all to a mysterious person who told it all to Tolkien, who only wrote all down. That's the final vision of the legendary Tolkien wanted to create.
About taking what is canon and what not, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately I haven't red all, so have to rely on those who did and on quotations they give. At least I know where to dig for more. And of course there is canon and my vision, which can be different. It's hard to separate both sometimes, when there is not enough of evidence.
Re: #3 part, damned word count!
Date: 2007-03-07 12:11 am (UTC)Oh he did and because of it, he waited for *the* political marriage.
For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien , and force Thingol to give her the mightiest of princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.
*pets Celegorm* Ambitious you.
I know about who wrote LACE, I also knows it says: being observed...
But in LACE is also the bits about Fea, Hroa, Mandos ect ect ect If people accept that as canon, than they should also accept the not so covienent bits. You either embrace it fully, or discard it.
I know LACE by heart and I can write enough stories dealing based on LACE and still being accused of not sticking to it. Ask Dawn, she experienced the same. So yeah, having read it all...
Re: #3 part, damned word count!
Date: 2007-03-07 12:35 am (UTC)Good that my Celegorm is in woods and can't talk now ;)
No, I don't take LACE fully as truth nor as a lie, I treat it as text which needs interpretation, because some facts have bis misunderstood. Everyone sees these texts in their own subjective way and that's why accusations of not following canon. Every one has got a different vision of canon, not only concerning LACE, which doesn't make life easier.
And of course besides discussing how much Aelfwine was mistaken I'm happy that this text was written and published. Despite what I said I take as true a lot of it.
Re: #3 part, damned word count!
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From:no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 11:51 pm (UTC)If I went - I ate it. Too many comments tonight, too late!
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Date: 2007-03-07 12:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 08:26 pm (UTC)Why do you think that? I think they still had followers at Amon Ereb, limited, but they were not alone.
BTW, folks at Hobbitton are discussing what exactly happened with Elrond and Elros before the War of Wrath and where the Feanorians finally landed.
Following the discussion - according to HoME it was Maedhros who took mercy upon twins, while in Silmarillion it is Maglor (Christopher's edit or Tolkien's will). Later old versions of legendary say Maedhros and Maglor finally landed on Balar before the war, which some people finds out very suspicious - like after the 3 kinslayings anyone would let them in. I say they had the twins as a bargain or a threat - kids were captured as hostages what ever happened between Maglor and them next.
What do you think on that? I see you rather place them in Ossiriand. Which is quite logical since they knew elves there well and woods itself, but maybe they weren't welcomed there, too. If they always bring the curse with them...
In the end - were Elrond and Elros twins? I always thought that way, but people weren't sure. Now they discuss if identical twins or not (two "egg" twins a s we say in Polish). All because Kasiopea painted that scene "and Maglor took pity upon them" and one kid is smaller, like Elros was already human and growing faster which is IMHO impossible, they choice was made later.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 08:45 pm (UTC)Simply because what happened when they stole the jewels (all alone), every part in the Silm after Sirion states obviously that they were alone and had none that followed them.
Following the discussion - according to HoME it was Maedhros who took mercy upon twins, while in Silmarillion it is Maglor (Christopher's edit or Tolkien's will). Later old versions of legendary say Maedhros and Maglor finally landed on Balar before the war, which some people finds out very suspicious - like after the 3 kinslayings anyone would let them in. I say they had the twins as a bargain or a threat - kids were captured as hostages what ever happened between Maglor and them next.
I know that, in HOME IV there is actually a nice table of the change of thoughts the professor had. I discussed that with Dawn a while ago and it's very interesting. The little ones were taken as kids and set free as kids near Sirion, so whatever they thought on getting a ship to Balar and knock on the doors, that is pure speculation and frankly, I don't find it interesting unless I can get a quote from canon (and no I haven't seen that one, but if it is only mentioned with references regarding to Maedhros, than I missed it (I never made a canon character study of him as I did with Maglor and Celegorm)). Maedhros doesn't have my heart as the other two have.
What do you think on that? I see you rather place them in Ossiriand. Which is quite logical since they knew elves there well and woods itself, but maybe they weren't welcomed there, too. If they always bring the curse with them...
Errr I never said I would rather place them in Ossiriand. Their last known refuge is Mnt Dolmed which is Dwarven territory. As far as I am concerned they can be anywhere. They are wandering, without followers.
In the end - were Elrond and Elros twins?
Yes, they were. It's somewhere in the tales of the years (HOME) and littered elsewhere too.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 09:00 pm (UTC)"Simply because what happened when they stole the jewels (all alone), every part in the Silm after Sirion states obviously that they were alone and had none that followed them."
Hmm, they have stolen the jewels after the War of Wrath, and they kept twins after Sirion.
Hmmm, maybe you are right unless a line in HoME says different, I just don't know it ;)
I'm too influenced by fan fiction where they are not alone, damn. I remember a part of their followers started to fight against them during the attack on Sirion, but not all and many survived this attack. For sure they were alone after the War of Wrath.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 09:23 pm (UTC)Few of the Eldar went ever to Nogrod and Belegost, save Eöl of Nan Elmoth and Maeglin his son; but the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand, and they made a great road that passed under the shoulders of Mount Dolmed and followed the course of the River Ascar, crossing Gelion at Sarn Athrad, the Ford of Stones, where battle after befell. Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them. But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men, because of their love and reverence for Aulë; and the gems of the Noldor they praised above all other wealth. In the darkness of Arda already the Dwarves wrought great works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than silver or gold.
From the Silm, so it isn't such a strange thought. Except for Celegorm, all were followers of Aulë.
How the seven escaped from the Nirnaeth:
Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain, for they drew together, and gathering a remnant of the Noldor and the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped far away towards Mount Dolmed in the east.
The realm of Fingon was no more; and the sons of Fëanor wandered as leaves before the wind. Their arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild and woodland life beneath the feet of Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old.
Hmmmm I just had a Celegorm bunny poppin up. :c)
For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days); but Maedhros and Maglor won the day, though they alone remained thereafter of the sons of Fëanor, for both Amrod and Amras were slain.
No mentioning of people following Maglor and Maedhros.
And when this new star was seen at evening, Maedhros spoke to Maglor his brother, and he said: 'Surely that is a Silmaril that shines now in the West?'
And Maglor answered: [cut because LJ wants me to] Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt.
No followers mentioned.
Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath; for they would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even against the victorious host of Valinor, even though they stood alone against all the world. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him.
No followers mentioned.
I'm too influenced by fan fiction where they are not alone, damn. I remember a part of their followers started to fight against them during the attack on Sirion, but not all and many survived this attack. For sure they were alone after the War of Wrath.
Well that wasn't so strange, see above:
In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days);
But yes, fan fiction does that to you.
Bear in mind, please that what I think happens in Rhapsy!verse does not always equal canon ;) The Inner Light (http://www.scribeoz.com/fanfic/story.php?no=2884) one of my stories, is most definitely an example of that. Yet it makes such a nice fit in canon, imho.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 12:09 am (UTC)"mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old."
That's what I remembered,that they landed in Ossiriand.
But the other quotes you give while they say nothing of the followers, they say also nothing on lack of them. There might be someone with them, just it's not mentioned. Elrond and Elros are not mentioned, either, yet they were by their side up to the war. Or maybe not, that's not that clear.
All we can red is they were last of sons of Feanor and that they didn't obey Eonwe.
About the Amon Ereb refugee - from the discussion at Hobbiton, post by M.L. (though this is not quotation, rather my summary of facts he gave):
And that's all so far. There is also Elrond's sentence in LotR when he remembers the hosts of Valar going to the War of Wrath, so he must have seen them and rather in Beleriand, not on Balar.
But was it under Maedhros or Ereinion's care? No data.
I keep version they kept kids till Valar came, later I don't know. But I also let Maedhros and Maglor land on Balar, where they would give the kids back or keep by their side as guarantee of their safety.
no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 12:19 am (UTC)First to Mount Dolmed with their followers, then their league fell apart and well, they scattered. An important order of events.
Elwing's twins were born in the year 532, 58 years before the end of the I Age.
The Tale of Years (WJ: 348) - Maedhros took pity upon the twins (not Maglor as Silmarillion says), anyway it was in the year 538.
In the year 540 Amon Ereb was destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor run away to Balar. (LR: 124-154).
David Saló moved the date of Amon Ereb seizure and brothers escape to Balar 4 years further onto year 544 of the I Age.
This is too tricky and too far of Canon. As much as I respect Saló, changing dates is just very wrong, especially in a discussion.
The Tale of Years (WJ: 348) - Maedhros took pity upon the twins (not Maglor as Silmarillion says), anyway it was in the year 538.
That would make them six. I recall their parents being 26 when they were born. Btw, the pity taking changed at least 4 times. Just fyi. Also it was said that Maglor killed himself in that same plan and that didn't quite happen either.
In the year 540 Amon Ereb was destroyed, Maedhros and Maglor run away to Balar. (LR: 124-154).
Running away doesn't say getting there. I believe the dates are completely out of whack, because the kinslaying happened in 527 (somewhere in HOME and I am not going to dig for it, but that date has always been very stable).
But was it under Maedhros or Ereinion's care? No data.
They were set free at Sirion by the two, so concequently they would end up under Gil-galad's care. It really makes sense.